Is anyone else not a fan of the SS3 Vegeta design?

[PhantomSaiyan]

I don't mind the design at all

I understand that some people got used to seeing Vegeta with the classic SSJ3 hair in fanart or Raging Blast, so it can feel like a bit of a shock/betrayal, but I like that he has his own hair design

If you think about it, every transformation looks different on every character. SSJ1 looks different on Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks.
SSJ2 looks different on Gohan, Goku, Vegeta, and SSJ3 looks similar between Goku and Gotenks but technically isn't the exact same (no bang lol) so I don't mind Vegeta having his own design

I don't get why some see it as ridiculous though: hair in Dragon Ball is ridiculous by default, most of the hairstyles are not realistic, especially Saiyan's, so I fail to see how Vegeta's SSJ3 hair is any more ridiculous than any other hairstyle in the story, especially Goku's SSJ3 hair

[Koitsukai]

I happen to like it. The fanart SS3 Vegeta with long hair made him look ever shorter, while Ultra Vegeta 1 seems taller to me.

I just wish they'd retire his saiyan armor.

[super michael]

I like how SSJ3 Vegeta looks in Dragon Ball Daima, he is different than I expected but different isn't always a bad thing.

[angeldreamZ004]

Yeah, I agree, which is why I do like SSJ4, unlike SSJ3. If you think about this symbolism, it's pretty much also what they did with UI, something that is supposed to be developed since the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai arc, when Goku started to train with his first master Kame Sennin.

My point is more about people only liking the transformation because they look cool and nothing more, which is why I said that SSJ3 is responsible for that. SSJ4 despite having unique concepts behind it, let's be honest, if it wasn't for the crazy design, a lot of people just wouldn't care about it, it's what happens with the DBS / God forms, people criticize them for not having drastic design changes, when being simple visually was always their intent, and they call them lazy for that when they have very interesting concepts behind them that actually adds more to the writing than anything SSJ3 ever delivered.
Then a lot of fans brought that mentality to SSJ4, as a result, you can see how 90% of the pre-BoG fan-made transformations are pretty much all about taking the SSJ4 design, adding more hair, change the color, adding more muscles, adding horns or more details + stronger than predecessor.

Of course, I'm not generalizing, there are a lot of fans who try to look beyond than just the form's cool design and its strength, I particularly saw some theorizing it's the conventional transformation that is more linked to the supernatural and that's one of the reasons it's not golden for example, which only makes it more interesting imo, it's would make it a middle ground between the Regular SSJs and the God Forms.

But there's the other side that only really cares about design and strength. I'm glad Super goes against that mentality, its arcs constantly tries to tell us that new transformations just aren't about getting stronger.

SSJ4 has some other special feats to it as well, such as the “ultra full power” version, or limit break from Heroes, which are cool too. I only personally prefer the God forms because the concepts are more interesting for my liking and because I prefer simpler design changes. But in the end, I think all of them are a lot better than SSJ3.

If you think about it, every transformation looks different on every character. SSJ1 looks different on Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks.
SSJ2 looks different on Gohan, Goku, Vegeta, and SSJ3 looks similar between Goku and Gotenks but technically isn't the exact same (no bang lol) so I don't mind Vegeta having his own design

I don't mind too but I guess people only think of the SSJ3 design being the same for everyone because Gotenks already doesn't have a bang in his Base / SSJ forms lol.

[Zebra]

Gokuu and Gotenks have unique Super Saiyan 3 hair styles, too, so I like how there's that bit of consistency by making Vegeta's noticeably different.

The only difference between SS3 Gokuu and SS3 Gotenks is that Gokuu has a bang, and Gotenks has a widow's peak; Gotenks already had a widow's peak and lacked bangs before, so this doesn't actually have anything to do with SS3. What makes them look so similar is that their hair comes hanging down; before Daima, it was sort of an unwritten rule that SS3 makes everyone's hair come hanging down, as we see with Burdack, Gohan, Gogeeta, Vegett, Vegeeta, Trunks, Broly, and those player avatars in games like Raging Blast, Heroes, Xenoverse 2, etc.

[Grimlock]

Kind of related, but I'm not a fan of Super Saiyan 4 either.

I can give Dragon Ball GT's Super Saiyan 4 a pass conceptually-wise because it's clear it is a transformation that comes from the Oozaru branch and its name was confirmed to be out of convenience. But what about Dragon Ball Daima's Super Saiyan 4? What makes it a Super Saiyan form? Why is it red instead of golden? Why does it have a fur? Where is the tail coming from?

And now we have two series without a single guidebook to answer questions and provide further insight...

[The Dark Knight]

Kind of related, but I'm not a fan of Super Saiyan 4 either.

I can give Dragon Ball GT's Super Saiyan 4 a pass conceptually-wise because it's clear it is a transformation that comes from the Oozaru branch and its name was confirmed to be out of convenience. But what about Dragon Ball Daima's Super Saiyan 4? What makes it a Super Saiyan form? Why is it red instead of golden? Why does it have a fur? Where is the tail coming from?

This is an issue with other forms as well, such as Beast Gohan and Rage Trunks. The writers are far more interested in generating hype than remaining logical.

And now we have two series without a single guidebook to answer questions and provide further insight...

I don't think they even know the answers to these questions, or care that much either.

[angeldreamZ004]

What makes it a Super Saiyan form? Why is it red instead of golden? Why does it have a fur? Where is the tail coming from?

Is it ever said that it's a SSJ form? I don't recall that, everything is vague enough as far as I remember with the only explanation being that Neva is the one who awakened it, meaning that it can't be reached conventionaly through physical means like GT did.

As for the red and other details. Why is SSJG red, skinnier and with flame looking aura?
None of the forms have any real direct explanation for their designs other than SSJ1 and the grades from Cell Saga. They'll just randomly pick a color or add more hair since 1993 with no explanation. Only exceptions I believe being UI and UE.

But makes me think, these initial different forms start with red eyes, and in the case of SSJ4, awakened by a entity originated from a world where most of the creatures are bestial in appearance, with many resembling anthropomorphic animals or hybrids. What does SSJ4 look like?
Well with this I'm already entering headcanon territory which may not be relevant for the actual question.

Again, I don't remember any moment it was considered a SSJ form other than the name for obvious reasons. I wouldn't take the scene showing the transformations in sequence as evidence that it's a evolution to SSJ3, as Super also treats SSJG as a "evolution' to SSJ3, when technically it is not.

[Grimlock]

Is it ever said that it's a SSJ form? I don't recall that, everything is vague enough as far as I remember with the only explanation being that Neva is the one who awakened it, meaning that it can't be reached conventionaly through physical means like GT did.

Goku calls it "Super Saiyan 4". After the "Namekuseijin awakened" it, Goku was able to transform into it again with no problems. Goku says he was training to reach the form, so it's possible he would achieve it without the Namekuseijin being involved.

As for the red and other details. Why is SSJG red, skinnier and with flame looking aura?

Exactly. "Super Saiyan God" is another form whose name can only be out of convenience. It shouldn't have that name. That transformation is something else entirely.

None of the forms have any real direct explanation for their designs other than SSJ1 and the grades from Cell Saga. They'll just randomly pick a color or add more hair since 1993 with no explanation. Only exceptions I believe being UI and UE.

It doesn't need an explanation. The first of something is always arbitrary, but then it becomes the standard. Anything different from the standard should be treated as separate (and then an explanation for the differentiation is required).

[angeldreamZ004]

Goku calls it "Super Saiyan 4".

For that I adopt the same thing you said for SSJ4 GT and SSJG. Name convenience indeed exists in-universe, with Goku using "SSJGSSJ" then Whis coming up with "SSJB" later on.

Spoiler:

"SSJGod" makes sense in my view because the Saiyajins interpret "Super" as something legendary that goes beyond a ordinary Saiyajin and a Oozaru form. SSJ representing a mortal transformation, while SSJ + God represents something even higher in the hierarchy, having a extra word next to it showing its superiority. If it was called "Saiyajin God" only, it could make it be interpreted as being equal or even weaker than SSJ unless they specified the power boost of each form. The name SSJGSS later being confusing because the legends didn't know about a specific kind of ki that can be used over standard form.

After the "Namekuseijin awakened" it, Goku was able to transform into it again with no problems. Goku says he was training to reach the form, so it's possible he would achieve it without the Namekuseijin being involved.

We'll never know, unless in the future it's also decided to give the form to Vegeta, or someone else, we might discover other means to awaken it, but so far through Neva's power is the only know method. Goku at the end of the series said that he wasn't sure if he could access it, which opens the door for the interpretation that it can't be reached conventionaly, and Aya Komaki said that the form was born in the scene after Neva's uses his power.
As for Goku being able to access it later as a adult, it's pretty much the same as Gohan not having to go through the Ro Kaioshin ritual again in order to access the Ultimate form. Or Goku himself not having to go through the SSJG ritual again. Vegeta does show different method of getting SSJG, though it was still through contact with the divine.
I believe the other method(s) of unlocking SSJ4 being if he Goku trained with Neva, or other similar entity. Conventionaly could be possible too but we'll have to wait to see if that will ever happen.

[NeoZ Duwang]

Goku calls it "Super Saiyan 4".

For that I adopt the same thing you said for SSJ4 GT and SSJG. Name convenience indeed exists in-universe, with Goku using "SSJGSSJ" then Whis coming up with "SSJB" later on.

Spoiler:

"SSJGod" makes sense in my view because the Saiyajins interpret "Super" as something legendary that goes beyond a ordinary Saiyajin and a Oozaru form. SSJ representing a mortal transformation, while SSJ + God represents something even higher in the hierarchy, having a extra word next to it showing its superiority. If it was called "Saiyajin God" only, it could make it be interpreted as being equal or even weaker than SSJ unless they specified the power boost of each form. The name SSJGSS later being confusing because the legends didn't know about a specific kind of ki that can be used over standard form.

After the "Namekuseijin awakened" it, Goku was able to transform into it again with no problems. Goku says he was training to reach the form, so it's possible he would achieve it without the Namekuseijin being involved.

We'll never know, unless in the future it's also decided to give the form to Vegeta, or someone else, we might discover other means to awaken it, but so far through Neva's power is the only know method. Goku at the end of the series said that he wasn't sure if he could access it, which opens the door for the interpretation that it can't be reached conventionaly, and Aya Komaki said that the form was born in the scene after Neva's uses his power.
As for Goku being able to access it later as a adult, it's pretty much the same as Gohan not having to go through the Ro Kaioshin ritual again in order to access the Ultimate form. Or Goku himself not having to go through the SSJG ritual again. Vegeta does show different method of getting SSJG, though it was still through contact with the divine.
I believe the other method(s) of unlocking SSJ4 being if he Goku trained with Neva, or other similar entity. Conventionaly could be possible too but we'll have to wait to see if that will ever happen.

I believe the issue Grimlock has with the form is the fact that, while GT's Super Saiyan 4's divergence is properly explained by the fact that it is tied to the tail and Oozaru line of transformations, Daima's feel arbitrary and connects to nothing.

The original Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God and GT's Super Saiyan 4 are easy to accept because they are the first of their kind. It's not so easy to accept Daima's Super Saiyan 4 because we know literally nothing about it other than the fact that it's called "Super Saiyan 4" and Goku has been training to obtain it. Sure, they still can connect it to SOMETHING and just keep the explanation that the "4" naming is just out of convenience, but we really don't have a lot to go off of

[angeldreamZ004]

I believe the issue Grimlock has with the form is the fact that, while GT's Super Saiyan 4's divergence is properly explained by the fact that it is tied to the tail and Oozaru line of transformations, Daima's feel arbitrary and connects to nothing.

The original Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God and GT's Super Saiyan 4 are easy to accept because they are the first of their kind. It's not so easy to accept Daima's Super Saiyan 4 because we know literally nothing about it other than the fact that it's called "Super Saiyan 4" and Goku has been training to obtain it. Sure, they still can connect it to SOMETHING and just keep the explanation that the "4" naming is just out of convenience, but we really don't have a lot to go off of

I don't now if the point is solely about the design, the name, or the lore behind it, but I'll adress all. It's right that there isn't much background behind it. But also the reason when I talk about the form (and others similars such as Beast) there's a lot of [insert headcanon] discussion, it's thanks to the ambiguity, it does exist. The way it's treated, opens the door for the interpretation that the form is only obtainable through the power up from Neva, but more objectively, one of the ways, the title of the episode heing "Awakening" and after numerous attempts of beating Gomah with SSJ3, he only getting the form because of Neva.

Aya Komaki specifically talks about the visuals of the scene where Goku transforms for the first time representing the Oozaru. It doesn't help much with understanding why it's the way it looks, but GT SSJ4's design is not that much well explained either.
The bigger fists potentially also add to the connection to Oozaru, but that's not very precise.
Note that Toriyama passed away too soon to explain it, he would very likely have offered more details after the episodes released, just like he did with Beast by explaning that it's meant to be Gohan's inner beast after the movie released.

Goku later saying that he wasn't sure he could unlock it also contributes to it. I know there's Vegeta saying that he kept it a secret, which may sound weird, but that doesn't outright confirm that Goku awakened the form prior to Daima, what it confirms is that Goku somehow knew it existed, or he believed a form beyond SSJ3 existed and trained to awaken it, it's the same thing as if Goku learned about the legend of the SSJG prior to Battle of Gods.
That's why I think considering Neva's power boost is so important to understand the transformation and I'm against in ignoring it when talking about the form, in my view, it's like trying to ignore the Ro Kaioshin ritual when talking about Ultimate Gohan, because it's the only method we aware of. It can be temporary concept, just like SSJG only being awakened through a ritual was temporary. But for now, the only know method is through Neva's Namekuseijin power boost. Goku never confirmed he awakened it through conventional training or other methods, there's no evidence for that so far, it's only ambiguous enough for the possibility of suggesting that, which can also be used to say that through Neva is not the only method.

As for the name, Goku was the one who came up with the name Super Saiyajin 4, he was also the one who created the names SSJ2 and 3 in-universe, there isn't a universal rule for how those forms are called. Unlike SSJ, SSJG, UI, which are names that existed back then in old legends and divine knowledge.

That said, what we objectively know about Daima's SSJ4:

1- Goku somehow knew about it, or just believed it existed and trained to achieve it, but he never could by himself as he says he wasn't sure. (Doesn't confirm it can be awakened through conventional training)
2- He called it "SSJ4" (doesn't confirm it's a traditional SSJ form in the same line as the golden hair ones, as there's no universal rule for the names)
3- He Awakaned it through Neva's power boost (doesn't confirm it's the only method)
4- The visuals of the scene where he awakens it for the first time represent the Oozaru (doesn't explain how much it is linked to Oozaru though)
5- The Seocnd transformation scene shows Goku can access it on his own after Neva's power boost (it doesn't confirm that it's a evolution of SSJ3 though, after all Super also treats SSG as a evolution to SSJ3 a few times, and Gohan going from Ultimate to Beast twice also isn't a confirmation that Beast is a evolution to Ultimate)

[kiarasuraru]

Daima SS4 barely even functions as it is right now. It's the epitome of modern Dragon Ball shameless nostalgiapandering. The little it "makes sense" and functions as it does right now is only by seeing it through the lens of SS4. There's practically nothing to work with outside of that.
Makes me the slightest bit curious how reactions to it would be in a world where neither GT or Super exists.

[JulieYBM]

Goku trains for a new form that he senses exists for him to reach and calls this new form Super Saiyan 4. It makes as much sense as any other Super Saiyan form does.

The problem isn't Super Saiyan 4, it's that Goku has nothing going on in Daima. The problem isn't the post-dinner ice cream, the problem is that there was no dinner in the first place.

[IntangibleFancy]

I think it looks great in certain angles. Like the front where it looks more star shaped. But the troll doll hair is just hard to take seriously, just like with Beast. That said, I like that Toriyama established that there's different SS3 hair styles because Heroes kept pasting different variants of Goku's over and over.

And the kicker is that Goku and Gotenks' SS3 hair had distinct styles in the first place, like Goku having longer and more rounded spikes as opposed to Gotenks' Banana spikes, or Goku's hair being flowy at the bottom as opposed to Gotenks' going all the way down like a porcupine. it's just that since they're both really long it's hard to notice the differences.

[JulieYBM]

I think it looks great in certain angles. Like the front where it looks more star shaped. But the troll doll hair is just hard to take seriously, just like with Beast. That said, I like that Toriyama established that there's different SS3 hair styles because Heroes kept pasting different variants of Goku's over and over.

I'm rather confident that we are not supposed to take the hair seriously.

[Mr Baggins]

Aya Komaki pointedly confirmed in the Daima Blu-ray pamphlet interview that there were two ways of transforming into the new form, saying they wanted to make a distinction between mini Goku's method (which she describes as Goku's own power being drawn out) and adult Goku's method (which she describes as Goku simply powering up from the previous form).

Not that we really needed clarification here, since Goku and Vegeta's dialogue in episode 20 makes it clear that the transformation in episode 19 had nothing to do with Neva. Vegeta wouldn't have thought Goku was hiding it from him otherwise; that was the whole point of their exchange. And when Gomah sapped mini Goku's energy, he clearly reverted to Super Saiyan 3.

Daima's Super Saiyan 4 is 100% an evolution of Super Saiyan 3. Similarly, Super Saiyan God can be thought of as an alternate evolution of the mortal Super Saiyan. Two things can be true.

In Toriyama's mind, red is the color that comes after yellow. Also, there's an obvious caveman-like motif in Super Saiyan 3's design that would naturally lead to what we see with Super Saiyan 4. Rest assured, the audience wasn't meant to overthink any of this.

This is an issue with other forms as well, such as Beast Gohan and Rage Trunks. The writers are far more interested in generating hype than remaining logical.

I take umbrage with grouping those two in the same category. Gohan's rage boosts were his whole gimmick, so the idea that he'd have a unique form based upon that power, while somewhat retroactive, makes enough sense. Rage Trunks is just pure vibes, hype and nonsense.

[Kaboom]

If False SS4 was really conceived as "just power up even higher above SS3" without anything actually special or creative behind it, as is par for the course for basically every other new form in the modern slop... then all the more reason to throw it in the trash and stick with the real thing from GT.

So glad I learned from Super and didn't actually watch this dreck.

[angeldreamZ004]

Spoiler:

Aya Komaki pointedly confirmed in the Daima Blu-ray pamphlet interview that there were two ways of transforming into the new form, saying they wanted to make a distinction between mini Goku's method (which she describes as Goku's own power being drawn out) and adult Goku's method (which she describes as Goku simply powering up from the previous form).

Not that we really needed clarification here, since Goku and Vegeta's dialogue in episode 20 makes it clear that the transformation in episode 19 had nothing to do with Neva. Vegeta wouldn't have thought Goku was hiding it from him otherwise; that was the whole point of their exchange. And when Gomah sapped mini Goku's energy, he clearly reverted to Super Saiyan 3.

Daima's Super Saiyan 4 is 100% an evolution of Super Saiyan 3. Similarly, Super Saiyan God can be thought of as an alternate evolution of the mortal Super Saiyan. Two things can be true.

In Toriyama's mind, red is the color that comes after yellow. Also, there's an obvious caveman-like motif in Super Saiyan 3's design that would naturally lead to what we see with Super Saiyan 4. Rest assured, the audience wasn't meant to overthink any of this.

Goku in episode 20 straight up says he trained a lot but that he wasn't sure if it would work. He could simply be referring to using SSJ4 inr order to defeat Gomah, not transforming into it. Still, none of the interpretations confirm that he awakened it off-screen. He also never says that Neva had nothing to do with it, he's simply vague enough to allow people to interpret that way.

mini Goku's method (which she describes as Goku's own power being drawn out)

This going in contradiction with the narrative that Neva has nothing to do it, because who drew out his power? The episode where the form debuts is literally called "Awakening", Goku is only able to transform on his own after Neva makes his "ritual", just like how Goku was only able to transform into SSJG on his own after the SSJG ritual is performed, there's like no difference. It's confirmed that Neva was a method (not the only one) to awaken it, even if Goku ended up not saying it.

As for Vegeta, what he actually says is that Goku was hiding the transformation from him, that's why I made my comparison with a hypothetical scenario where Goku already acknowledges the existence of SSJG. That wouldn't mean that he can transform into it, it would only mean that he was aware of its existence and didn't tell Vegeta.
Vegeta saying that Goku was hiding his capacity of transforming into SSJ4 from him is a interpretation of the dialogue, not it's true meaning.

As for SSJ4 reverting back to SSJ3, or it being 100% a evolution to SSJ3, in the Super manga the same thing is seen with SSJG, SSJG Goku reverts back to SSJ3 in the Moro arc, and we also see him going from 3 to God in the ToP. Even the Super remake is treating SSJG as a evolution to Golden SSJ forms and no one says that the form is linked to the golden line of transformations.

Toriyama said SSJ2 and 3 are upgraded versions of SSJ. We never got the same kind of explanation for 4 in Daima.

[Mr Baggins]

If False SS4 was really conceived as "just power up even higher above SS3" without anything actually special or creative behind it, as is par for the course for basically every other new form in the modern slop... then all the more reason to throw it in the trash and stick with the real thing from GT.

Preferences aside: I'd argue if there's a "False SS4", it's the version of the form where the 4 means nothing and was only named that way out of sheer convenience. At least in-universe.

Successor forms being upgrades of predecessor forms isn't a modern invention at all.

As for Vegeta, what he actually says is that Goku was hiding the transformation from him

You didn't bring up anything I didn't bring up.

And no, that implicitly means he can transform into it independently – and did exactly that for the first time, by Goku's own admission. It's why Vegeta thought he was hiding it in the first place, despite everyone already seeing Neva's sequence in episode 18. Goku being aware of its existence also flat-out presupposes that the form doesn't particularly require Neva.

All Neva did was draw out the power from within for mini Goku, which was clearly intended to be a distinct method from the sequence in episode 19 where Goku transformed on his own at full power. Again, this is confirmed by A) the Blu-ray pamphlet that specifically says so, and B) the exchange between Goku and Vegeta in episode 20. You're taking the latter dialogue completely out of context; Vegeta was evidently surprised that Goku had access to an additional Super Saiyan form after they returned to their original bodies, then Goku attributes this only to his prior training without making any mention of Neva at all.

As for SSJ4 reverting back to SSJ3, or it being 100% a evolution to SSJ3, in the Super manga the same thing is seen with SSJG, SSJG Goku reverts back to SSJ3 in the Moro arc, and we also see him going from 3 to God in the ToP. Even the Super remake is treating SSJG as a evolution to Golden SSJ forms and no one says that the form is linked to the golden line of transformations.

I already addressed this. Again, two things can be true. That doesn't remotely undermine the evidence presented.

God is just an alternate branch from a different series. There's a reason that Ultra Instinct (a form that's actually unrelated to any of the Super Saiyan forms) is consistently shown being activated from Goku's base form instead of some stage of Super Saiyan.