Gohan's anger as a theme - did it ever have a satisfying payoff?

[Yuji]

Obviously, there’s Super Saiyan 2. But the story doesn’t end there. We get into the Boo arc, and Gohan’s inability to control his anger is made into another plot point: losing his cool is what allows him to become the strongest there is, but he can’t deliberately access that power against Dabra.

Then we get Ultimate Gohan, which you’d think would tie into that somehow. He’s calmer, I suppose, but his transformation isn’t really connected to his anger issues at all. That whole plot point just kind of disappears. Am I missing something?

People, and later even Super, claim that he got cocky against Boo, but I always thought he was pretty determined and collected in the manga. Gotenks was the one who fused without his permission. Gohan's statement he was gonna kill Boo was meant as an affirmation of his focus and responsibility, not an ego thing. I guess calling him a retard was too far, though.

I’m actually glad that Beast picks up on Gohan’s anger and makes it something he can consciously control, because it does feel like a return to his original character arc. I suppose I like the subtext in the original series that Ultimate Gohan represents him finally having control over his emotions, but it’s really just subtext. You have to squint pretty hard to read it that way, and Super's interpretation of Gohan kind of muddies it even further.

I don’t know. Maybe I’m missing something. What are your thoughts?

[JulieYBM]

After Gohan's mistaken against Cell leads to his father's death, I feel like the older Majin Buu arc version should have had more clarity and self-reflection. I imagine that Toriyama might have felt that—as the new lead character—Gohan should not have had such, but I think it just cuts the legs off under something that would make him an interesting alternative to Son Goku as a lead. We see Gohan's anger boil up while he watches Spopovich beat the fuck out of Videl, but that feels like a largely non-Gohan type of anger? Like, who the hell wouldn't get pissed in that moment? I think the whiplash of it all is when Gohan goes back to normal after being healed and waking up. Those struggles with Darbra feel less organic once you remember that Gohan was pissed as hell an hour prior.

My interpretation of Ultimate Gohan's clash with Majin Buu was always that Gohan was horsing around too much, based on that smug smile tantalizing Majin Buu. It felt like it was only inevitable that Majin Buu would be driven to desperation, like when Gohan's smugness sent Cell off trying to wipe away the Earth with a Kamehame-Ha, and then trying to self-destruct afterward.

Diggging through the Yoshitaka Toshio-scripted Dragon Ball Super Episode #88, Gohan is struggling in his training with Piccolo. Piccolo admonishes him with

"All I see if you psyching yourself up. You're just going to run in circles like that. Trying to train is pointless, let alone getting any stronger. If you can't even muster the power you have anyway, then you'll never be able to protect Videl and Pan! Sure, having something you can defend can give you strength. But,when feelings become too strong, they become perilous. If you don't handle them with care, they can serve not as strength, but as shackles! If your attention is focused only on winning, you can't dispassionately asses the situation, and you will misjudge your opponent's true power."

Piccolo's monologue here, and what it means for Gohan, feels like traveling back in time to 1994-1996 and tying all of the Gohan stuff together and advancing it for the first time. Like, Toriyama's just continually treading water with Gohan in ways that would make Hajime no Ippo author Morikawa George blush.

Piccolo continues:

"There's no such thing as a fight you can't lose! If we do lose, this universe will be annihilated! You must first accept that fact! Then, on that basis, win!"

I feel like this entire scene is being approached from the position of, "Let's tackle Gohan's story from the original comic and then naturally progress it." Since Yoshitaka knows what he wants—whether the general idea is from Series Director Nagamine, Unofficial Head Writer Tomioka Atsuhiro, or just Yoshitaka himself—he's able to have Piccolo and Gohan lay it out really plainly in a way that makes sense. Gohan is the sort to psych himself up and then get in over his head, then lose. That feels like acceptable interpretations of the battles with Cell and Majin Buu, right? Or heck, ostensibly, it's an interpretation of all of his battles where he flies off the handle and then winds up getting swatted back by his foe once they catch their footing and Gohan's outburst peters out. That certainly happened to him once or twice against Freeza, if I recall correctly.

Later in the episode, Piccolo tells Gohan that while he is strong, he has a weakness:

"You are strong. However, you do not entirely have the heart of a warrior. When it really counts, you never quite close the deal. You've always been like this. Back when you have the Elderly Kaioshin draw out your power so that you could fight Boo, all that power made you arrogant—you became overconfident in your own strength, and you ended up enjoying that strength. No matter how strong you are, as long as you have that arrogance, you won't be able to prevail at the tournament. Be a warrior! No matter who your opponent is, fight with everything you've got!"

Toriyama often likes to say that Gohan, Goten and Trunks don't have any interest in battle like Goku and Vegeta do. This scene feels like Yoshitaka acknowledging that, while also using it as the basis for explaining how Gohan's previous defeats stemmed from the idea that, when someone is not a warrior but has great power, that power basically just makes them a ruffian. So, if Gohan is to enter into the Tournament of Power—a tournament where people with the hearts of warriors are all going to be fighting to save their home universes from being wiped out—he is going to have to confront this aspect of himself. It's a very directly laid out character arc for Gohan that is obviously written to make kids and their general audience member parents be able to understand the story, but that directness also makes it easier to advance story without needing to get too bogged down in time-consuming interpretation for what is obviously pretty basic stuff to write for a character at this point in the overall history of the franchise.

Fuck, I should have just taken clips of the goddamned episode and posted them instead of typing out these subtitles lol

Anyway, scenes like these from Dragon Ball Super (animated series) Episode #88 are a big part of why it's so deflating to progress onward to Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero and see Toriyama clearly didn't try to learn from the cartoon series and instead just repeats the same fuckin' Gohan story for the sixth time. Gohan mentions in the film that he's still training, but Piccolo still manages to get the jump on him and then later on in the film, Gohan is shown to be rusty and struggling to fight. All the exciting momentum from the animated series' final arc is just gone in a poof of smoke.

I suspect the reasoning for this is probably out of the hands of the film's director, Kodama Tetsurou. Kodama obviously didn't work on the animated series, but I also suspect that he did not have control over having the script written by someone other than Toriyama—like Tomioka Atsuhiro or another of the animated series' writers—and judging by what we've learned about the production of other animated Dragon Ball projects, Toriyama basically only communicates through email with a third party, so it's not like Kodama could request Toriyama make changes to line up with the animated series. I'm curious how much of a struggle it was to communicate the request to have Gohan's battle against the Gamma take place in the rain, since we know that that was something that was not in the original script.

The more time that passes, the more disappointing that movie is.

Finally, in the Dragon Ball Super comic, we see Gohan discuss how his Beast form works and there it does feel like Toyotarou tried to capture some of that same magic as the anime in having Gohan be really proactive and understanding about his power and rage and how they work. I'm curious how much of that was his own interpretation or how much of it was in Toriyama's own notes because when the animated adaption eventually brings back Beast, I'm curious if that explanation will be adapted any.

At the end of the day, I feel like the question proposed by the thread has a bit of a murky answer. Is there a satisfying payoff to the arc surrounding Gohan's anger? Because of how Toriyama personally writes Gohan, it feels like the question is never allowed to have a real answer. I like to think that the Gohan we see in the animated series' final arc doesn't relapse and continues to maintain the wisdom that he acquired during his training and during the Tournament of Power. I think that if any future writer is going to write more Gohan character arcs, they should ideally consider how they could next push the Gohan from the animated series' Tournament of Power forward. Reinterpret the Super Hero arc so that Gohan's ascent to Beast doesn't ignore where he had gotten during the animated series' Tournament of Power and then go from there. That, I think, is where the satisfaction will lie.

[Kaboom]

The actual theme at work was the huge amounts of latent power Gohan always had, and his "rage boosts" were just how he tapped into it. They were the means to an end, especially when he was a kid and could only grow so much via training.

I'd say Super Saiyan 2 against Cell was the big payoff for the "anger" side of it, and then Ultimate was the culmination of the broader "Gohan's dormant power" thing as a whole. He now had all that previously tucked-away power brought to the forefront for him, with perfect control over it and no need for flashy transformations or unpredictable anger to force it out. The new "Beast" form horseshit in Super is a regression of all that, if anything.

[Zephyr]

Ultimate is definitely a workaround to his full power being locked behind a ragewall, but I don't think it was very satisfying. He didn't have to train and learn to tap into that well of strength on his own, he just had an old witch bring it out for him. I won't pretend that having to sit there for so long while Boo was killing everyone he knew and cared about wasn't an excruciating thing he had to endure, effectively as payment for the gift, but Gohan is no more skilled as a warrior afterwards. For that, I am glad that he lost in the end.

Kaboom is right that the "rage boosts" were originally just his way of tapping into that well. While in Super, Beast recontextualizes the "rage boosts" to also manifest in a transformation unique to Gohan, which I think opens the door for retroactive in-universe speculation that his past "awakenings" were instances of Beast trying to get out (which makes the resemblance to Cell Games Super Saiyan 2 more than just a "break glass in case of emergencies" move). All of this would be more interesting if it was text within a story, and not simply speculation based on tidbits from outside of the story.

But yeah I dunno, I guess within the original manga there was no real payoff to Gohan's anger as a serious hurdle to him as a character, it was simply sidestepped entirely in the end.

[Zebra]

I always felt Ultimate should've been the result of Gohan mastering all his anger. Like, Elder Kaioushin casts a spell on Gohan that drives him berserk. With his anger at its peak, Gohan releases all of his dormant power, but the only way he can go beyond the limits of his dormant power is if he manages to bring that anger under control. Elder Kaioushin seals away Gohan in the Z Sword, and sends him a vision of Super Boo killing his family and friends on the lookout later on. Seeing them die is what causes Gohan to finally calm down and bring his emotions under control. With that, he becomes Ultimate and breaks out of the Z Sword, ready to face Boo.

Much better than him sitting on his ass for a free power-up.

[dbgtFO]

Much better than him sitting on his ass for a free power-up.

Indeed.
If Gohan kept the main character spot, that would have been a proper way to make him deserving of that power.
As it is, all the powerups after SS2 just seem like jokes.

[L3anD3RStar]

Forgive me, this is going to be a long one. Turns out I had a lot to say. And this post got accidentally deleted once so let’s see how far this one gets.

After Gohan's mistaken against Cell leads to his father's death, I feel like the older Majin Buu arc version should have had more clarity and self-reflection.

I agree, particularly because I have to think that the seven years between Cell and Buu, was a dark time for the family.

Think about it. Goku is choosing to leave. They can’t wait for him to come back. He doesn’t want to come back. He’s leaving them. For their own good, but still, his choosing to remain dead means his eleven-year-old son is going to have to assume even more adult responsibilities then he already has, and his wife will be going through pregnancy, childbirth, and raising a new baby alone, with only stories where a flesh-and-blood father should be.

Goten gets to have the happy, carefree childhood that Gohan never did, but Gohan got to know his dad, and Goten never will. That’s gotta bring on some mixed emotions. Especially because it’s voluntary. Goku’s family loves him and would forgive him anything, but Goku knew when the Tournament was coming up, but not how many children he had. And when he met Goten, his immediate reaction wasn’t regret for how much he’s missed, but more like, “oh, cool, a little me, I wonder how strong it is, I wanna teach it fusion!”

I’m just saying, there had to be nights when Chi-Chi fell asleep clutching Goku’s old gi, trying not to cry so loudly her boys would hear her.

Gohan would step up, but Gohan is still a kid himself. One who has already broken once under the burden of the responsibilities his father placed on him. Gohan loves his father, and Goku loves his son, and Goku hurt his son very deeply in the name of making him stronger. You can argue his plan was neccessary, it was to save the world, but it was CRUEL. It was basically sending a kid out there to be tortured until he snaps and becomes an unstoppable rage monster. Goku didn’t think of it that way, he really believed his son was going to transform, come into his own, take control of that bottomless well of power he’s been sitting on for his entire life, realize that being powerful rocks actually and he can’t wait to fight all of the bad guys in his father’s stead. Goku was so sure of this because it’s how HE would react. By the time he realized what kind of mistake he’d made, it was far too late.

And every time Goten asks what Dad was like, Gohan has to remember that HE is why that question is even necessary. Like his fukk up drove his father away. Dad died to fix his mess. Nevermind that he was a child, and he had the literal weight of the world on his shoulders, and every adult he trusted had just watched him get tortured right in front of them. Nevermind that he’s been told his entire life that because he was born powerful, he HAS to fight, otherwise he’s basically saying he’s ok with all of his family and friends being killed by Bad Guy. The bad things only happen because he didn’t stop the bad guy. He’s a little boy and he’s responsible for the lives of all of the adults he knows. They are all relying on him. If he loves, REALLY loves them, then he will fight for them, he won’t let them die.

I imagine that Toriyama might have felt that—as the new lead character—Gohan should not have had such, but I think it just cuts the legs off under something that would make him an interesting alternative to Son Goku as a lead.

I think Toriyama thought the change from martial-arts-sci-fi to superhero story would be easier and more inspiring then it ended up being. He wanted to do another Superman parody, which he’d already done several of over his various titles over the years, but with the Tokusatsu that his kids were into. He ended up not liking the change as much as he thought he would. Putting Gohan in ridiculous outfits and poses was only funny for so long, and he struggled to think of interesting stuff for him to do. That’s why he fell back on the old reliable tournament arc. It had always worked to give his story direction before.

And it’s sad because SaiyaMan is the only time we ever got to see Gohan being really HAPPY. After all he’d been through as a kid, he was finally getting to play. He was actually enjoying his power, in his own way, doing something uniquely his own. Not chasing his father or Mr. Piccolo. Doing something because HE wanted to, for maybe the first time ever.

He deserved more of that time.

We see Gohan's anger boil up while he watches Spopovich beat the fuck out of Videl, but that feels like a largely non-Gohan type of anger? Like, who the hell wouldn't get pissed in that moment? I think the whiplash of it all is when Gohan goes back to normal after being healed and waking up. Those struggles with Darbra feel less organic once you remember that Gohan was pissed as hell an hour prior.

What was done to Vidal was awful. She was by far the best female character Toriyama had introduced in a long time. She had agency. She made plot happen. She ran into burning buildings and kicked armed men in the face. She was daughter of the World Champion and expecting to follow in his footsteps. She grew up in a dojo and lived for martial arts. She mastered Ki control in one lesson and was flying within a day. She had spirit and drive and knew what she was going to do with her life. She was going to be a hero, defend the defenseless, and fight for justice.

Then Spopovich happened and all of that went away. For what it’s worth, I don’t think Toriyama intended to come down so hard on her. I think the way she gets quickly shuffled offscreen, Spopovich dies for reasons unrelated, and everybody just kind of forgets what happened to her, implies the creator himself didn’t really want to think about it. Toriyama was always reluctant to draw really sad things. That’s why he has her get healed, then get married and live happily ever after. No need to worry! Nevermind her drastic personality change! She’s smiling, making food, and having babies and that means she’s happy! All’s well that ends well! Don’t even worry about it!

Vidal never got to see what happened to Spopovich. No wonder she never fights again, not even in tournaments against other humans. She probably still has nightmares.

I wonder if she and Gohan ever talked about their collective trauma around tournaments. Both of them know what it’s like to be tortured in view of everyone you love. To feel outmatched, overwhelmed, and utterly helpless even though logic dictates you SHOULD be the strongest person here.

Or maybe she just makes soup and tells him how happy she is to be married to a scholar.

She deserved better than this.

Gohan is the sort to psych himself up and then get in over his head, then lose. That feels like acceptable interpretations of the battles with Cell and Majin Buu, right?

Kind of? Personally, I think Gohan’s battle with Majin Buu just proved that he hasn’t gotten over his fight with Cell. He hasn’t processed that damage and maybe never will. That’s why every fight he ever has turns into him vs. Cell, in one way or another.

Toriyama often likes to say that Gohan, Goten and Trunks don't have any interest in battle like Goku and Vegeta do.

In Gohan’s case, and yes I am aware of who i might be contradicting so let me just say this is my opinion…. I don’t think it’s so much that Gohan “doesn’t have an interest.” I think he actively DISLIKES battle. He does not enjoy it. He will do it when he has to, but he does so knowing that it’s going to make him miserable. He will show up and do the heroic thing, but he does it from a sense of responsibility and self-sacrifice. It’s a painful ordeal he puts himself through for the sake of the ones he loves.

I think that’s why he collapses so throughly when he’s dispirited. He was already miserable when he got here, so losing and getting hurt just makes him more miserable, and that feels correct. The guy who thinks he can and the guy who thinks he can’t are both right.

Anyway, scenes like these from Dragon Ball Super (animated series) Episode #88 are a big part of why it's so deflating to progress onward to Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero and see Toriyama clearly didn't try to learn from the cartoon series and instead just repeats the same fuckin' Gohan story for the sixth time.

Toriyama really never could think of another plotline for Gohan, could he? I heard somewhere that he wasn’t even in Super Super Hero originally, first draft was the Piccolo and Pan show, but Iyoku suggested adding Gohan because he hadn’t been in the last movie and people were wondering where he was.

It’s kinda disappointing. But it also reinforces my theory that the reason why it keeps happening is Gohan is stuck in the Cell Games in his head, and has never managed to break out of that cycle.

[GokuHater]

I think the real point isn't Gohan's anger but his ... Innocence? Despise of violence?

Gohan throughout Saiyan, Frieza, Cell saga had managing his power and anger theme going on, which led to SSJ2 but I think anger was never the main focus here.
Anger was just a tool which made Gohan loose his barriers and fight to actually hurt someone.

From the first time we see Gohan , we learn at once he is tender, shy and childish. He is quite different from Goku in many ways.
His anger comes into view, when his own innocence is threatened and this actually makes him want to hurt.

The culmination of course happens at SSJ2 where he loses this innocence and realizes he NEEDS to kilka Cell.

From that point on, I feel Gohan is forever a bit different and although still doesn't like fighting that much, he is not as bend at not hurting anybody. So yeah, for me, even if there are no more anger issues for Gohan, I feel his character arc is concluded in a satisfying way.

I don't really enjoy what they did with Beast Gohan tbh, I mean the transformation is okay but the "reason" he got angry was very shallow and nowhere on the level which made him tick on Z.