Is anyone else not a fan of the SS3 Vegeta design?

[Kaboom]

Preferences aside: I'd argue if there's a "False SS4", it's the version of the form where the 4 means nothing and was only named that way out of sheer convenience. At least in-universe.

Better to just have a phoned-in name than an entire phoned-in existence.

[gokugambitoptimus]

I hope the Ultra Vegeta 1 means we will see the true SSJ3 Vegeta (the hair going down) in a near future

[angeldreamZ004]

Spoiler:

As for Vegeta, what he actually says is that Goku was hiding the transformation from him

You didn't bring up anything I didn't bring up.

And no, that implicitly means he can transform into it independently – and did exactly that for the first time, by Goku's own admission. It's why Vegeta thought he was hiding it in the first place, despite everyone already seeing Neva's sequence in episode 18. Goku being aware of its existence also flat-out presupposes that the form doesn't particularly require Neva.

All Neva did was draw out the power from within for mini Goku, which was clearly intended to be a distinct method from the sequence in episode 19 where Goku transformed on his own at full power. Again, this is confirmed by A) the Blu-ray pamphlet that specifically says so, and B) the exchange between Goku and Vegeta in episode 20. You're taking the latter dialogue completely out of context; Vegeta was evidently surprised that Goku had access to an additional Super Saiyan form after they returned to their original bodies, then Goku attributes this only to his prior training without making any mention of Neva at all.

As for SSJ4 reverting back to SSJ3, or it being 100% a evolution to SSJ3, in the Super manga the same thing is seen with SSJG, SSJG Goku reverts back to SSJ3 in the Moro arc, and we also see him going from 3 to God in the ToP. Even the Super remake is treating SSJG as a evolution to Golden SSJ forms and no one says that the form is linked to the golden line of transformations.

I already addressed this. Again, two things can be true. That doesn't remotely undermine the evidence presented.

God is just an alternate branch from a different series. There's a reason that Ultra Instinct (a form that's actually unrelated to any of the Super Saiyan forms) is consistently shown being activated from Goku's base form instead of some stage of Super Saiyan.

Ops my bad then I thought you meant that what he said was that he awakened it off-screen prior to the series, which a lot of people took those dialogue as confirmation for it. Was too focused on the method and how the form works, where everything is quite vague

[Mr Baggins]

I hope the Ultra Vegeta 1 means we will see the true SSJ3 Vegeta (the hair going down) in a near future

Unless you jest and I'm just missing it, they're the same form. Vegeta was so salty over Goku one-upping him again that he came up with an alternate name on the spot, lol.

To the topic at hand, it's rad that Toriyama gave Vegeta's form a design unique to Vegeta, rather than making it look identical to Goku's. Daima was a good swan song.

[Zephyr]

Also, there's an obvious caveman-like motif in Super Saiyan 3's design that would naturally lead to what we see with Super Saiyan 4.

I think this idea is enticing, but 4 gets the eyebrows back. So it walks back on what 3 did to make Goku look more primal, and does entirely different things to accomplish that. Instead of building on 3 and taking it further, we just have two different ways of making Super Saiyan look more primal. Not that variety is bad or anything, but actually building on 3's design would have been more interesting.

[Mr Baggins]

I think this idea is enticing, but 4 gets the eyebrows back. So it walks back on what 3 did to make Goku look more primal, and does entirely different things to accomplish that. Instead of building on 3 and taking it further, we just have two different ways of making Super Saiyan look more primal. Not that variety is bad or anything, but actually building on 3's design would have been more interesting.

I don't share your interpretation.

Though he regains the eyebrows, his appearance gets even hairier while keeping the pupils/irises, which are now a fiery red. Before he was just slightly primal and resembled a caveman (worth noting that his concept art had a tail) but now he's very primal with ape-like traits. The color change feels conscious of that. It's diverse enough to feel like its own design, as I think it should, while also continuing the oozaru motif that started with 3.

Moreover, Toriyama's no stranger to walking back specific traits in subsequent forms. Much fanart online has attempted to expand upon 3's design wholesale, and none of it looks particularly good.

[The Dark Knight]

Unless you jest and I'm just missing it, they're the same form. Vegeta was so salty over Goku one-upping him again that he came up with an alternate name on the spot, lol.

A lot of the jokes went over fans' heads. Not only do some fans think Vegeta's Ssj3 was either incomplete or indeed a new form altogether, they believe the after credits scene was a tease for another season, rather than the simple joke that it was about finding the most unlikely of items in the most unlikely of places.

Vegeta was evidently surprised that Goku had access to an additional Super Saiyan form after they returned to their original bodies, then Goku attributes this only to his prior training without making any mention of Neva at all.

My understanding of Daima's Ssj4 is that Goku knew it existed as a result of his training, but up until Neva unlocked it, he wasn't sure how to access it himself. It was only after Neva unlocked it that Goku was capable of transforming into it on his own as an adult.

Daima SS4 barely even functions as it is right now. Makes me the slightest bit curious how reactions to it would be in a world where neither GT or Super exists.

Here's what Daima's Ssj4 has going for it:

It is far closer to the great ape in terms of appearance and mobility. We see Goku running on all fours and using his tail for example. It also looks far closer to a human ape with the big hands, the red fur, and the overall body composition compared to Ssj1-3. If I were to watch Daima after DB and Z, I would say Goku has come full circle as a character in terms of appearance and style.

In terms of feats, we saw Goku shake the entire demon realm as he powered up, we saw his Kamehameha break the barrier between worlds, and we felt the impact of each blow he delivered to Gomah. There was a clear jump in power compared to what we had witnessed of Ssj3 up to that point.

With the positives out of the way, I have to be fair and list the negatives:

I am not a fan of Neva just unlocking it; there should've been more to it than that. For a form that looks and functions as good as this, the way it was actually reached was underwhelming.

I am also not a fan of the lack of foreshadowing; the form just comes out of nowhere. A line or two of Goku talking about evolving the Ssj form would've gone a long way in making the reveal more organic.

Daima being set so soon after the Buu saga makes it seem illogical to introduce a new form so soon. There was a 4 year gap in-universe between Goku reaching Ssj1 and Gohan reaching Ssj2, and that's not counting the years spent in the time room and the experimentation everyone did with the grade forms. There was a 7 year gap in-universe between Gohan reaching Ssj2 and Goku reaching Ssj3, and he was only able to do that as a result of being dead and gaining more from his training. In Daima ? there was less than a single year.

With that said, If Daima was the only sequel we had gotten to Z, 30 years later no less, the reactions would've been positive to both the series and the form. I think the landscape being diluted with so much Dragon Ball is why the reception has been lukewarm; people are overwhelmed with Dragon Ball. Daima is in the same place the level sets were when Funimation released them back in the day; they were coming off 4 other releases, so of course people weren't enthusiastic for more. In a world where GT, Super, and Heroes don't exist, Daima is celebrated as a proper send off to both Dragon Ball and Toriyama as an author.

[Grimlock]

We can't blame them for thinking that, since "Super Saiyan 3" is different just for the sake of being different. Maybe we should really call it "Ultra Vegeta 1" and reserve the actual name to the proper Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta.

And "Super Saiyan 4" is... uh... I don't really know what it is. Just yet another transformation in the endless history of transformations for Saiyans, I guess.

[PhantomSaiyan]

We can't blame them for thinking that, since "Super Saiyan 3" is different just for the sake of being different. Maybe we should really call it "Ultra Vegeta 1" and reserve the actual name to the proper Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta.

Not really, we can 100% blame them, it's super obvious that it's SSJ3, there's no need to make up headcanons and pretend it's something else just because you don't like how it looks

[Grimlock]

Why do I have the feeling that if I ask what "headcanon" was made up, I will get some even weirder response?

Well, be that as it may, we may take solace on the possibility that all of this will probably be stuck in Dragon Ball Daima, which may not get some sort of sequel or follow-up of any kind. And I somewhat doubt these forms will appear again somewhere else. But eh, who knows.

[The Dark Knight]

We may take solace on the possibility that all of this will probably be stuck in Dragon Ball Daima, which may not get some sort of sequel or follow-up of any kind.

I think Daima, like GT, will remain as its own isolated product; I just can't see us getting a sequel to it to be honest. For starters, this was the project Toriyama was the most involved with outside the original manga; the chances of them following up on that without him are slim to none. Then there's the fact that Daima's premise leaves little room for a follow up, as you can't turn everyone into kids again and have them go to the Demon Realm a second time for a solution.

I somewhat doubt these forms will appear again somewhere else.

I agree; with Super's remaster getting so many new scenes and newly recorded dialogue, they could've easily taken into account Daima's events if they wanted to; as of now, it's clear that they have no intention of revisiting that part of the franchise.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Why do I have the feeling that if I ask what "headcanon" was made up, I will get some even weirder response?

Well, be that as it may, we may take solace on the possibility that all of this will probably be stuck in Dragon Ball Daima, which may not get some sort of sequel or follow-up of any kind. And I somewhat doubt these forms will appear again somewhere else. But eh, who knows.

So you're telling me you didn't clearly imply tat Daima's SSJ3 is not a "real" SSJ3 therefore it's something different? And you didn't say that we can't blame people for thinking they are different? Ok dude.

If you don't see what headcanon was made up in this situation, then there's nothing more that my words can do here...

[JulieYBM]

I think it would be really funny if the Super Saiyan line was just completely abandoned in favor of a new Ultra Saiyan line of transformations that look nothing like Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta.

[Mr Baggins]

A lot of the jokes went over fans' heads. Not only do some fans think Vegeta's Ssj3 was either incomplete or indeed a new form altogether, they believe the after credits scene was a tease for another season, rather than the simple joke that it was about finding the most unlikely of items in the most unlikely of places.

"Dragon Ball fans can't read" is something of a tautology at this point. But hey, maybe we'll get the real trenchcoat-wearing Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta after Iyoku cobbles together his very own AI powered zombie Toriyama to make Daima season 2!

My understanding of Daima's Ssj4 is that Goku knew it existed as a result of his training, but up until Neva unlocked it, he wasn't sure how to access it himself. It was only after Neva unlocked it that Goku was capable of transforming into it on his own as an adult.

That's more or less correct.

Goku's exact explanation was "Buu was really strong, so I trained a lot after fighting him. I wasn't sure if it would work, though." – that and Vegeta's own surprise that he could do it along with Komaki's pamphlet statement all make rather clear that it was accessed (as an adult) by powering up from 3 thanks to his training, though he'd never actually done so up until that point. He knew it existed, but wasn't sure he was capable of getting there.

Neva's unlock was instrumental, but only indirectly. He just awakened hidden power within mini Goku that caused him to transform further into 4. I don't think it was even meant to give him permanent access, although we can perhaps infer that it led to Goku having permanent access by allowing him a better "feel" over the form which provided the confidence to tap into it on his own after returning to his original body and power. The beats in general somewhat resemble what happened in Battle of Gods.

If I'm to take any issue with Daima's Super Saiyan 4, it's with its disjointed presentation. Imagine how cool the "one more bonus" scene would've been if that was our sole introduction rather than Neva helping mini Goku in the prior episode, or vice-versa. The writing here kinda wanted to have its cake and eat it too.

Still, I like it. I'm rather fond of how the complete transformation line turned out aesthetically, even if 4 technically is just a playful spin on Nakatsuru's old design from GT.

[Grimlock]

I agree; with Super's remaster getting so many new scenes and newly recorded dialogue, they could've easily taken into account Daima's events if they wanted to; as of now, it's clear that they have no intention of revisiting that part of the franchise.

There was Dragon Ball Heroes, where it would be interesting to see how Dragon Ball Daima Goku and GT/Xeno Goku would react to each other's Super Saiyan 4, but since we very unfortunately don't have that anymore, and as you would probably say, it's for the best if Dragon Ball Daima is kept self-contained going forward.

[The Dark Knight]

There was Dragon Ball Heroes, where it would be interesting to see how Dragon Ball Daima Goku and GT/Xeno Goku would react to each other's Super Saiyan 4, but since we very unfortunately don't have that anymore, and as you would probably say, it's for the best if Dragon Ball Daima is kept self-contained going forward.

I'm not complaining about Daima being its own thing you can watch after Z without worrying about Super, as I have a lot of issues with that series that prevent me from revisiting it. As for Heroes, it would've been funny to get something similar to the three Spider-Men meme of them pointing at each other, just with 3 Ssj4 Gokus instead.