Unpopular DB opinions

[The Dark Knight]

I’ll blame Toei way more than I’ll ever blame Toriyama.

This is by far the most frustrating thing about the whole situation; when things go right, the guy doing the bare minimum gets the credit, but when they don't, everyone else who are actually putting in the work get blamed.

[kemuri07]

But that’s the situation they found themselves in regardless. Not saying that Toriyama is entirely blameless, but the way the anime is produced is entirely on Toei.

[The Dark Knight]

But that’s the situation they found themselves in regardless. Not saying that Toriyama is entirely blameless, but the way the anime is produced is entirely on Toei.

The rushed production schedule was definitely on Toei, but the writing issues were most certainly on Toriyama.

[kemuri07]

But there were several other writers who were also in charge of writing for individual episodes. When I mean production, that does also means the scripts for each individual episode. And that absolutely is on Toei as well.

Because Super is also a Toei production that just happens to use some plot points and designs that Toriyama came up. But how that all came together? That’s Toei. Removing Toriyama from the equation wouldn’t have made Super any better.

[The Dark Knight]

But there were several other writers who were also in charge of writing for individual episodes. When I mean production, that does also means the scripts for each individual episode. And that absolutely is on Toei as well.

Because Super is also a Toei production that just happens to use some plot points and designs that Toriyama came up. But how that all came together? That’s Toei. Removing Toriyama from the equation wouldn’t have made Super any better.

Removing Toriyama and bringing in a writer who was actually working full time and making sure everything was where it needed to be would've absolutely made Super better.

[JulieYBM]

Just let the staff of these projects do whatever they want at that point. Let series directors go ham. The Iyoku bit is even funnier because this man is clearly fashioning himself the face of Dragon Ball and yet even he only ever talked to Toriyama via fucking email.

I can look past the e-mail bit (even though I would've preferred if he actually talked to them in-person or using Zoom) if he was actually interacting with them on a regular basis, but he wasn't. Even Iyoko hinted at his interactions with him being limited, despite being the main go-between for Toriyama, the staff, and the officials at Jump and Toei. I can't imagine being part of the staff with such constraints placed on my work and creativity. I know his involvement was a major plus for the marketing department, but for the actual people working on these projects day in and day out, it must've been a real handicap. Toriyama should've either gotten involved for real, where he was interacting with these people and guiding them through things, or he should've stepped aside; this "I'm involved, but not really" nonsense just hurt both Super and Daima, as well as make things unnecessarily difficult for the people who worked on them.

Like, yeah, emails aren't a terrible way to communicate to for the sake of clarity and detail, but the big problem here is that it shows that he clearly had a half-assed approach to his contributions. Like, I don't think it's wrong of us to criticize the wealthy guy who controlled his own massive IP and could very much just ask to learn how the production crew worked while also not micromanaging them. Obviously, this is a little bit too late to change anything, I just think it's worth pointing out how we approach the standards that we hold these authors to.

But yeah, you're absolutely right.

Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball Daima had their few, occasion small victories in spite of terrible work conditions.

I’ll blame Toei way more than I’ll ever blame Toriyama.

This is by far the most frustrating thing about the whole situation; when things go right, the guy doing the bare minimum gets the credit, but when they don't, everyone else who are actually putting in the work get blamed.

Anime fans very rarely have any degree of appreciation for anime workers, especially if they are fans of a series adapting someone else's IP—which is unfortunately the majority of anime now, given how few companies want to invest in original anime. Anecdotal as this is, I think it's only been within the last few years that I've seen more people be even aware of who series directors are on some of these projects. When rumors began to swirl that Goshozono Shouta (Gosso) was not going to be the series director of Jujutsu Kaisen Season 4, I saw quite a bit of chatter on social media about it. After how much Gosso bent over to help elevate the quality of Jujutsu Kaisen Seasons 2 and 3—to the point of storyboarding 10.5 of Season 3's 12 episodes—the idea that the secret sauce might have been messed with caused a big uproar. Now that it's been confirmed that he's not involved with Season 4, MAPPA is keeping him credited as Chief Director just to placate fears that Season 4 will be somehow less good lol.

The big problem with Dragon Ball Super is that—on an executive-level—the series is not allowed to have a true creative vision and authorial voice because they keep wanting to push Toriyama's name for "the original creator is involved!" bucks. The closest that we got to escaping this was when Nagamine Tatsuya was series director of the first half of the Tournament of Power arc and Dragon Ball Super: Broly. He tweaked the look of the series as much as he could and then for the film he brought in a new character designer—Shintani Naohiro—and tweaked other aspects of the look and mechanics of the series. This all to say nothing of how he also brought in his regular animator friends, like Umakoshi Yoshihiko, to work on it.

The short of the long of it: don't swap out series directors every arc, let them take ownership of the project on a creative-level at least, and don't burn out staff by trying to cobble a series together in three fucking months.

Like, I think ONE PIECE is overall pretty awful as a series, but it's clear that instead of trying to perfectly emulate the look of the comic like they were between 2009 and 2018-ish, they should have been doing what Nagamine did when he took over as series director for the Wano-kuni arc and just let animators go insane. Every series director since Nagamine left has maintained this format, even as subsequent arcs have tweaked their looks a bit to match the new settings.

This is also a big part of why I wish these folks were getting to work on more original anime. A series director and writer shouldn't have to create a hit, long-running comic before being able to then adapt said comic into an anime just to have ownership of said title. This isn't meant to be a traditionalist take at all, but when we go back and look at things like Gundam in the 1980s, we talk about how those were Tomino Yoshiyuki series. We talk about Evangelion as a Anno Hideaki series. We need more projects like that again, IMO, and not just reviving older properties simply because it brings in quick cash for a studio.

Preaching to the choir, I know, but my fingers decided what to type on their own sometimes lol

But that’s the situation they found themselves in regardless. Not saying that Toriyama is entirely blameless, but the way the anime is produced is entirely on Toei.

But that’s the situation they found themselves in regardless. Not saying that Toriyama is entirely blameless, but the way the anime is produced is entirely on Toei.

The rushed production schedule was definitely on Toei, but the writing issues were most certainly on Toriyama.

But there were several other writers who were also in charge of writing for individual episodes. When I mean production, that does also means the scripts for each individual episode. And that absolutely is on Toei as well.

Because Super is also a Toei production that just happens to use some plot points and designs that Toriyama came up. But how that all came together? That’s Toei. Removing Toriyama from the equation wouldn’t have made Super any better.

But there were several other writers who were also in charge of writing for individual episodes. When I mean production, that does also means the scripts for each individual episode. And that absolutely is on Toei as well.

Because Super is also a Toei production that just happens to use some plot points and designs that Toriyama came up. But how that all came together? That’s Toei. Removing Toriyama from the equation wouldn’t have made Super any better.

Removing Toriyama and bringing in a writer who was actually working full time and making sure everything was where it needed to be would've absolutely made Super better.

Sorry for just grouping these quote all together and replying as a single response, but: basically the issue boils down to both time, following Toriyama's outlines closely, and executive/production/network influence. The writers for anime like these are all freelancers who have to follow the directions not just of the series director, but the restrictions placed on them by representatives of the various production committee members. They're all together in the room during these story meetings to decide how they're going to break up the story and then from there, while keeping in mind what those parties want, the writers write scripts and then slip in whatever ideas they have before submitting them for approval. I know that sounds really standard and like a big ol' "duh" but I think it bares repeating because these big IP series especially do not match the idea of the standard structure of a writier-driven series—like what you see in the United States.

I fellate the beginning of the Tournament of Power a lot these days but I think it's a platonic example of how to write a series like this: the characters had conflicting ideas, came into conflict with one another, made mistakes, had places in life where they were coming from, were inspired to take up the battle once more, and moved toward resolving their goals.

I'm not married to the ensemble cast format of writing serial stories but when you look at how Tomioka Atsuhiro and the others were scripting those episodes, you can absolutely see the benefits of how they were adapting whatever outline they had to work with into scripts that felt like they had actual structure to them with beginnings, middles, and ends.

(Also, Gohan was actually a fun character for once)

Like, I don't necessarily think that Toriyama even had to be removed from these productions entirely. I think the major issue is that there is someone in the room saying, "Hey, let's play the story safe in these ways" and everyone kind of just has to nod along and do their part so as to not rock the boat. I think the Tournament of Power arc in the 2015 animated series proved that you could take these ideas from Toriyama and spin them around a bit into a story with a bit more character and themes going on and then go from there.

I wish that we had more of an idea what specifically were ideas from the production staff. Jiren has a bit too much pathos going on to feel totally like a Toriyama character, even if the Toyotarou comic kind of has a bit of that.

Either way, I think there's a lot of good and bad to take and learn from with Super and Daima and it's my hope that for future productions we'll see someone in the meeting room fight for a specific vision that goes beyond just trying to totally mimic Toriyama's approach to storytelling and go from there.

As bad as Daima was, I'm still pretty positive about the forthcoming Dragon Ball Super: The Galactic Patrol. The worst case scenario is that it's just as bad as Daima, but even then I'd feel really stupid making complaining about it all the time my entire personality at my age lol

[Kid Buu]

I'm going to say what may end up being the most unpopular opinion in these 780 pages: Toriyama's return to the franchise, from a creative point of view, was far more harmful than beneficial. I'll go a step further and say that GT greatly benefited from him stepping aside and leaving it to Toei.

One aspect I think GT benefited from are the battle locations. Like no disrespect to Toriyama but he often uses wastelands as his fight settings. Toei have way more variety in this aspect.

[WittyUsername]

I’m pretty sure all the emphasis that post-revival Dragon Ball has placed (and continues to place on) on “this is all Akira Toriyama’s vision” is an overcorrection in response to the relative failure of GT. GT was and still is disregarded by much of the fandom as a “non-canon” waste of time that misunderstands Toriyama’s Dragon Ball, which is why you have the Super era constantly touting his involvement, regardless of how minuscule it might have been.

On the subject of fight scenes, I definitely can’t deny that the fights in GT are largely pretty dull, although I think Goku’s fight with Rilldo is pretty good and one of the more creative ones in the franchise.

[angeldreamZ004]

And when the Moro saga gets adapted, I do hope this joint effort continues. I hope Toyotaro gives his input to Toei and they work together on the adapted Moro saga. And get a wonderful voice actor for Moro because voice acting is so important.

I hope so too, given it's adaptation made years after the manga arc already completed, I think Toyo could help them improve it. But I don't think it's going to happen unless CCT and Shueisha agree on giving him Toriyama 2.0 treatment as it is the only scenario I see personaly. About the rest I agree.

I’m pretty sure all the emphasis that post-revival Dragon Ball has placed (and continues to place on) on “this is all Akira Toriyama’s vision” is an overcorrection in response to the relative failure of GT.

I think so too, especially when it comes to the Japanese, which I think they just didn't care about it all. And a huge part of the international fanbase likes to have canon debates. Something that just reached a whole other level because of Super, and GT didn't really offer that to these people given its nature.

One aspect I think GT benefited from are the battle locations. Like no disrespect to Toriyama but he often uses wastelands as his fight settings. Toei have way more variety in this aspect.

I agree but I think the variety is even bigger when you take the old movies, Playdia Gaiden and the filler material made prior to Boo Saga. Unfortunately a lot of those locations just never make their way into the games with the exception of a few like the hell from Janemba.

[PhantomSaiyan]

But that’s the situation they found themselves in regardless. Not saying that Toriyama is entirely blameless, but the way the anime is produced is entirely on Toei.

I'm pretty sure that any animated project's schedule in Japan is down to the higher ups executives and various other old men in suits, the animation studios just do what they can with the time they are given, so I imagine Toei was a victim of the brutal schedule, not the ones to blame for it

[The Dark Knight]

I'm pretty sure that any animated project's schedule in Japan is down to the higher ups executives and various other old men in suits, the animation studios just do what they can with the time they are given, so I imagine Toei was a victim of the brutal schedule, not the ones to blame for it

You quoted the wrong person.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I'm pretty sure that any animated project's schedule in Japan is down to the higher ups executives and various other old men in suits, the animation studios just do what they can with the time they are given, so I imagine Toei was a victim of the brutal schedule, not the ones to blame for it

You quoted the wrong person.

I fixed it, didn't I?

[MasenkoHA]

I'm going to say what may end up being the most unpopular opinion in these 780 pages: Toriyama's return to the franchise, from a creative point of view, was far more harmful than beneficial. I'll go a step further and say that GT greatly benefited from him stepping aside and leaving it to Toei.

One aspect I think GT benefited from are the battle locations. Like no disrespect to Toriyama but he often uses wastelands as his fight settings. Toei have way more variety in this aspect.

I think one man having to draw a weekly comic with only 3-4 weeks lead time taking shortcuts by having the characters fight in a wasteland (or the battle ground being quickly destroyed and turned into a wasteland) is understandable

Not surprising when Toei has a whole team of storyboard artist, key animators, and in-betweeners working 2-4 months before scheduled release they could created more dynamic settings for battles.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, there's an entire art director role for backgrounds and shit.

It's hard to understand if one is only a Dragon Ball fan and don't actively go out of your way to watch Japanese cartoons that aren't based on comics, but, like, the people who make these adaptations are capable of creating their own locations and storyboards. Like with any anime, you just need to give them time to plan shit out.

[Kid Buu]

I'm going to say what may end up being the most unpopular opinion in these 780 pages: Toriyama's return to the franchise, from a creative point of view, was far more harmful than beneficial. I'll go a step further and say that GT greatly benefited from him stepping aside and leaving it to Toei.

One aspect I think GT benefited from are the battle locations. Like no disrespect to Toriyama but he often uses wastelands as his fight settings. Toei have way more variety in this aspect.

I think one man having to draw a weekly comic with only 3-4 weeks lead time taking shortcuts by having the characters fight in a wasteland (or the battle ground being quickly destroyed and turned into a wasteland) is understandable

Not surprising when Toei has a whole team of storyboard artist, key animators, and in-betweeners working 2-4 months before scheduled release they could created more dynamic settings for battles.

Yeah, there's an entire art director role for backgrounds and shit.

It's hard to understand if one is only a Dragon Ball fan and don't actively go out of your way to watch Japanese cartoons that aren't based on comics, but, like, the people who make these adaptations are capable of creating their own locations and storyboards. Like with any anime, you just need to give them time to plan shit out.

I guess I should rephrase myself. I’m in no way trying to downplay Toriyama as an artist. I fully understand he was overworked for more than a decade and didn’t have the resources of an entire animation studio.

That said, I still appreciate that Toei went beyond simply continuing the wasteland approach and gave the fights more varied settings.

[coola]

One aspect I think GT benefited from are the battle locations. Like no disrespect to Toriyama but he often uses wastelands as his fight settings. Toei have way more variety in this aspect.

I think one man having to draw a weekly comic with only 3-4 weeks lead time taking shortcuts by having the characters fight in a wasteland (or the battle ground being quickly destroyed and turned into a wasteland) is understandable

Not surprising when Toei has a whole team of storyboard artist, key animators, and in-betweeners working 2-4 months before scheduled release they could created more dynamic settings for battles.

Yeah, there's an entire art director role for backgrounds and shit.

It's hard to understand if one is only a Dragon Ball fan and don't actively go out of your way to watch Japanese cartoons that aren't based on comics, but, like, the people who make these adaptations are capable of creating their own locations and storyboards. Like with any anime, you just need to give them time to plan shit out.

I guess I should rephrase myself. I’m in no way trying to downplay Toriyama as an artist. I fully understand he was overworked for more than a decade and didn’t have the resources of an entire animation studio.

That said, I still appreciate that Toei went beyond simply continuing the wasteland approach and gave the fights more varied settings.

Even in Z movies, I'm not fan of Movie 8, but New Vegeta was pretty good (And it's destruction was really cool) Movie 2 and 7 had Arctic setting, Movie 11 took place in b movie lab, Movie 12 had warped Hell etc. Specials had great locations as well, even Trunks one with postapo Earth. And let's not forget DB Movie 2 and 3.

[kiarasuraru]

The funny thing is that Toriyama™ sticker, despite being plastered the most and the hardest on Daima, didn't quite do much for it at the end of the day.
Sounds pretty bad to say but I'd say Toriyama dying did way more for Daima's reception than that. And even that didn't seem to last very much.
Ironically enough, Daima proved that the Toriyama™ Sticker is not infallible.

At the end of the day, people just kind of want things to feel meaningful and like they're progressing more than anything else. And these two little big things that are practically missing in modern Dragon Ball.

[The Dark Knight]

The funny thing is that Toriyama™ sticker, despite being plastered the most and the hardest on Daima, didn't quite do much for it at the end of the day. Sounds pretty bad to say but I'd say Toriyama dying did way more for Daima's reception than that. And even that didn't seem to last very much. Ironically enough, Daima proved that the Toriyama™ Sticker is not infallible.

Daima was released in the wrong time; I think the issue fans had with it were related more to the fact that there was already an on-going Dragon Ball story (Super) that was being ignored, rather than there being something inherently wrong with Daima. Had the Super manga wrapped up the Black Freeza plot point before Daima released, I think the reception would've been far better.

At the end of the day, people just kind of want things to feel meaningful and like they're progressing more than anything else. And these two little big things that are practically missing in modern Dragon Ball.

To be fair to Daima, it progressed and developed the world in a far more meaningful way than Super did, despite only being 20 episodes long. Everything with the Demon Realm, be it the world itself, its characters, history, etc., have expanded the world way more than Super did. With that said, I do think having it set before the end of Z limited its impact in the grand scheme of things, and a handful more of episodes could've expanded on certain elements that were in desperate need of attention.

[JulieYBM]

Daima is a perfect example of world building being useless if the television series that it is written for is not actually a well-made television series. Not allowing other writers to take Toriyama's ideas and really make plots out of them is ultimately what harmed the series. This is what happens when you have an undisciplined producer, like Iyoku Akio, trying to create a series that can be marketed as being "the most the original creator has ever contributed to a series!"

I'm a broken record on it, but give Dragon Ball Daima's animation character designer, production schedule and available skilled animators to Dragon Ball Super with its scripts as-written and the marriage would result in an overall project that hit so much harder.

[The Dark Knight]

Daima is a perfect example of world building being useless if the television series that it is written for is not actually a well-made television series. Not allowing other writers to take Toriyama's ideas and really make plots out of them is ultimately what harmed the series.

This is the biggest issue I have with Daima as well. On one hand, it's clearly the most Toriyama's been involved with Dragon Ball since the original manga, but on the other hand, there were still major plot points that were in desperate need of an expansion. We were told that Gomah's magic was terrifying, but we never saw it; we were told about Arinsu and Glorio's relationship, but we never saw it; then of course everything that had to do with Ssj4. The plot points were there; all they had to to was elaborate on them. The problem is that everyone was so afraid to change or add anything to Toriyama's work during this revival that everything just feels undercooked. I'm not even saying they should've introduced completely new ideas not present in Toriyama's draft, but rather just expand on what was there.

This is what happens when you have an undisciplined producer, like Iyoku Akio, trying to create a series that can be marketed as being "the most the original creator has ever contributed to a series!"

What's funny is that DB & Z regularly expanded and changed elements from the original manga back then, and more often than not, the changes improved the story.