Non-thread-worthy discussions

[Grimlock]

If you are talking about Goku and Vegeta only though I agree, Toriyama at least made him switch back to his Boo Saga outfit. But I really think the Whis Symbol Outfits should've been kept.

I see no difference in Goku's outfits, mere different kanjis/symbols (or lack thereof) don't count. Can one hope they keep the Movie 15 clothes all the way in this "enhanced edition"?

I'm speaking within the context of a serious battle, not training or as a gag. During the Tournament of Power, Goku is consistently trying to avoid using Blue when he can and I think that's the way to go if you're stuck needing to use every single form in a series, as opposed to just keeping one transformation at a time.

It is because I agree one should avoid using certain transformations, that when you said that, it rapidly came to mind those scenes, which I think they might kind of defeat that idea. It's like, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan only has drawback and can't be spammed when plot demands? Even in training, not counting those under Whis and/or with Vegeta, Goku only used when Gohan asked him to go full strength. And I just remembered this one, not really a training and certainly not a gag...

[Scsigs]

SSB is a waste of a form, and is lame tbh. It was introduced immediately after SSG was introduced and it was introduced against Frieza. It is literally Super Saiyan, but colored Blue. If Toriyama would have had them master SSG instead and have that be the main form up until UI and UE it would have been much better.

I disagree. I don't think it's a waste. However, it's introduced with not a lot of pomp & circumstance & doesn't amount to much in Res F. Afterwards, I think that it's used more, but SS God falls by the wayside. It doesn't help that we're not actually given an explanation why Goku & Vegeta developed it in Res F. You have to read an interview with Toriyama for that...for some reason. It just needed a better introduction & an actual explanation for why it exists in the actual movie.

[angeldreamZ004]

I see no difference in Goku's outfits, mere different kanjis/symbols (or lack thereof) don't count.

I forgot to write "Vegeta" instead of "him" so it got confusing, but pretty much he got his Boo Saga outfit back in Super Hero and Toyotaro followed with the idea for the late Granolah arc. For the manga Goku uses his Cell / Boo Saga gi from Zamasu until the Granolah arc, the anime has him switch back to his BoG gi which is just the same gi he used in the Freeza arc but lacking the strings, then Super Hero came and made him use the exact same gi from Namek but without any differences. Hey well at least he was given a new gi in Daima.

Can one hope they keep the Movie 15 clothes all the way in this "enhanced edition"?

If it stops at Champa, which is the last arc they use them, then you would need to wait until idk maybe 2028 to see how the possible Enhanced Zamasu arc will handle that. But do you want a spoiler already? The chances are 0% because if they really intended to do that and keep consistency, then the key visual for Super The Galactic Patrol wouldn't have both of them wearing their nostalgic outfits with the galactic patrol symbol lol.

And I just remembered this one, not really a training and certainly not a gag...

Hmmm... SSJB Goku vs Kuririn?

[QuakingStar]

I agree on the outfits, but I can't stand Blue. It's the laziest "Here you go" form with the laziest introduction and design. It immediately took SSG's spotlight and shine. It would be like Goku showing up on Earth and whipping out SS2 when he and Future Trunks have that test of power after Trunks kills Frieza. SSG is so much better in design and introduction, what other form was introduced with a ritual and added something like God Ki for the first time? None of them. SSB simply took the place SSG should have had the whole way.

[angeldreamZ004]

It immediately took SSG's spotlight and shine. SSB simply took the place SSG should have had the whole way.

More or less, Toriyama already intended to not have Goku using the red form anymore prior to Fukkatsu no F just its power in base form then over his "full power" SSJ form which he later developed for Blue.

I would've agreed if Toriyama never intended to have Goku being able to use God ki in his traditional forms, but that concept already existed in BoG, and it's the sole reason Beyond God and Blue are a thing, Beyond God was ditched but Blue is still reminiscent of that concept.

I think what could've been like the way you think it should've been is Toyotaro's interpretation in the manga, where Goku and Vegeta can't use god ki in their conventional forms, only transforming, which could be the reason Red is seen more often there. If they always need to transform to use god ki, then it could've been retconned to not have Blue exist, but Toyotaro interpreted it as Blue being some sort of a "Super Saiyajin God 2" or Red as "Super Saiyajin 4" and Blue as "Super Saiyajin 5", then Ultra Instinct / Ego as "Super Saiyajin God 3" / "Super Saiyajin 6". In this case I can understand your frustration, but when it comes to Toriyama's idea for BoG and Fukkatsu no F, it was a different concept that just ended up not surviving for too long.

Or maybe Toriyama never abandoned the idea, bringing back Red being Toei and Toyotaro's idea (we know that at least for Vegeta, the idea of using Red came from Toyotaro), that could be the reason he didn't gave Black his version of Red for example, only Blue (Rosé).

[QuakingStar]

It immediately took SSG's spotlight and shine. SSB simply took the place SSG should have had the whole way.

More or less, Toriyama already intended to not have Goku using the red form anymore prior to Fukkatsu no F just its power in base form then over his "full power" SSJ form which he later developed for Blue.

I would've agreed if Toriyama never intended to have Goku being able to use God ki in his traditional forms, but that concept already existed in BoG, and it's the sole reason Beyond God and Blue are a thing, Beyond God was ditched but Blue is still reminiscent of that concept.

I think what could've been like the way you think it should've been is Toyotaro's interpretation in the manga, where Goku and Vegeta can't use god ki in their conventional forms, only transforming, which could be the reason Red is seen more often there. If they always need to transform to use god ki, then it could've been retconned to not have Blue exist, but Toyotaro interpreted it as Blue being some sort of a "Super Saiyajin God 2" or Red as "Super Saiyajin 4" and Blue as "Super Saiyajin 5", then Ultra Instinct / Ego as "Super Saiyajin God 3" / "Super Saiyajin 6". In this case I can understand your frustration, but when it comes to Toriyama's idea for BoG and Fukkatsu no F, it was a different concept that just ended up not surviving for too long.

Or maybe Toriyama never abandoned the idea, bringing back Red being Toei and Toyotaro's idea (we know that at least for Vegeta, the idea of using Red came from Toyotaro), that could be the reason he didn't gave Black his version of Red for example, only Blue (Rosé).

SSG is brought back in the U6 v U7 Saga. Blue could have just been skipped entirely. We could have had Super Saiyan God Full Power then Super Saiyan God Kaioken, and a Super Saiyan God Evolved, then UI and UE. Would have been better that way.

[JulieYBM]

lol Kaiou-ken with its stupid-ass multipliers fucking sucks, we shouldn't be using that shit if we're dumping Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan lol

I thought that after Battle of Gods it would be base form and Super Saiyan 1 for 90% of the time and God would only be used for an extra boost in moments of desperation. Which Toriyama and co. said was the plan going forward. They even said that with Goku absorbing the God ki into his body it would be more effective to train his base form and SSJ. 1 further than to layer on 2 & 3. Then Resurrection F added Blue, but the plan still could've worked if the series had been given more care. Like you said the Tournament of Power was one of the few times it seemed like Blue had draw backs and its use needed to be planned effectively.
Also did the writers forget that Super Saiyan God had a time limit?

The decision to include the older transformations in the Universe 6 arc onward was probably a decision made to be able to continue to use those forms for some degree of selling merchandise. It's hardly the decision that I would have made, but I'm also not being paid to make businesses more money lol

I like the animated series' Tournament of Power arc, so I tend to cut the use of the older transformations slack, since the staff included the idea that using them would give Goku a helping hand in his battles without keeping him from recovering his stamina—which we were seeing a lot of during Goku's battles after the first time he used Ultra Instinct ~SIGN~. The Tournament of Power is a really big, ridiculous, kairological and koudan-inspired arc that operates in atemporality, so I think it just makes more sense to roll with the punches at that point.

It is because I agree one should avoid using certain transformations, that when you said that, it rapidly came to mind those scenes, which I think they might kind of defeat that idea. It's like, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan only has drawback and can't be spammed when plot demands? Even in training, not counting those under Whis and/or with Vegeta, Goku only used when Gohan asked him to go full strength. And I just remembered this one, not really a training and certainly not a gag...

Goku needing to use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to battle Artificial Human No. 17 doesn't bother me, though, because making the character that strong isn't an issue for me. I'm not interested in clear lines of strength between the characters. I think that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan should be used once the user has a better understanding of how their opponent moves and fights so as to not waste stamina unnecessarily, but I don't mind a battle cutting to the chase if we pre-establish that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan user isn't rushing in blindly.

[angeldreamZ004]

SSG is brought back in the U6 v U7 Saga.

We don't know if Red in the Champa arc was Toriyama's idea or Toyotaro's. Given how it doesn't show up in the anime version of that arc, and Toyotaro revealing that the idea of giving Vegeta Red God in the Zamasu arc came from him, then I'm leaning towards that having Goku use Red in the Champa arc in the manga was Toyotaro's idea as well, following his interpretation that he had since his version of the Beerus arc, where Goku is not seen using God ki in his base or regular SSJ form. In his view Red was never abandoned, which is opposite to Toriyama's original intent.

That's why I think Toyotaro's manga is the most appropriate place for your idea, because Toriyama's idea had "God" as not exactly being a transformation, but a power, that can change your physical appearance, but that doesn't need to. Toyotaro viewed it as more transformations.

Also did the writers forget that Super Saiyan God had a time limit?

No, because the time limit is specifically tied to the ritual, you perform the ritual and temporarily becomes SSJG. Goku absorbed the power, allowing him to use god ki without transforming, then trained with Whis alongside Vegeta which is what granted them not only Blue, but a "non-ritual variant" of Red as well, which lacks the time limit.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

lol Kaiou-ken with its stupid-ass multipliers fucking sucks, we shouldn't be using that shit if we're dumping Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan lol

I thought that after Battle of Gods it would be base form and Super Saiyan 1 for 90% of the time and God would only be used for an extra boost in moments of desperation. Which Toriyama and co. said was the plan going forward. They even said that with Goku absorbing the God ki into his body it would be more effective to train his base form and SSJ. 1 further than to layer on 2 & 3. Then Resurrection F added Blue, but the plan still could've worked if the series had been given more care. Like you said the Tournament of Power was one of the few times it seemed like Blue had draw backs and its use needed to be planned effectively.
Also did the writers forget that Super Saiyan God had a time limit?

The decision to include the older transformations in the Universe 6 arc onward was probably a decision made to be able to continue to use those forms for some degree of selling merchandise. It's hardly the decision that I would have made, but I'm also not being paid to make businesses more money lol

I like the animated series' Tournament of Power arc, so I tend to cut the use of the older transformations slack, since the staff included the idea that using them would give Goku a helping hand in his battles without keeping him from recovering his stamina—which we were seeing a lot of during Goku's battles after the first time he used Ultra Instinct ~SIGN~. The Tournament of Power is a really big, ridiculous, kairological and koudan-inspired arc that operates in atemporality, so I think it just makes more sense to roll with the punches at that point.

It is because I agree one should avoid using certain transformations, that when you said that, it rapidly came to mind those scenes, which I think they might kind of defeat that idea. It's like, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan only has drawback and can't be spammed when plot demands? Even in training, not counting those under Whis and/or with Vegeta, Goku only used when Gohan asked him to go full strength. And I just remembered this one, not really a training and certainly not a gag...

Goku needing to use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to battle Artificial Human No. 17 doesn't bother me, though, because making the character that strong isn't an issue for me. I'm not interested in clear lines of strength between the characters. I think that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan should be used once the user has a better understanding of how their opponent moves and fights so as to not waste stamina unnecessarily, but I don't mind a battle cutting to the chase if we pre-establish that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan user isn't rushing in blindly.

I feel that it would've been more appropriate to include Super Saiyan 2 & 3 in the Tournament of Power as glorified cameos. Goku shows off 3 to Caulifla more as a demonstration of how much further she can push herself (and I don't think he used it in battle IIRC). Which is similar to what he did when he demonstrated Super Saiyan 3 to Future Trunks to gage how much he improved.

[QuakingStar]

lol Kaiou-ken with its stupid-ass multipliers fucking sucks, we shouldn't be using that shit if we're dumping Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan lol

I thought that after Battle of Gods it would be base form and Super Saiyan 1 for 90% of the time and God would only be used for an extra boost in moments of desperation. Which Toriyama and co. said was the plan going forward. They even said that with Goku absorbing the God ki into his body it would be more effective to train his base form and SSJ. 1 further than to layer on 2 & 3. Then Resurrection F added Blue, but the plan still could've worked if the series had been given more care. Like you said the Tournament of Power was one of the few times it seemed like Blue had draw backs and its use needed to be planned effectively.
Also did the writers forget that Super Saiyan God had a time limit?

The decision to include the older transformations in the Universe 6 arc onward was probably a decision made to be able to continue to use those forms for some degree of selling merchandise. It's hardly the decision that I would have made, but I'm also not being paid to make businesses more money lol

I like the animated series' Tournament of Power arc, so I tend to cut the use of the older transformations slack, since the staff included the idea that using them would give Goku a helping hand in his battles without keeping him from recovering his stamina—which we were seeing a lot of during Goku's battles after the first time he used Ultra Instinct ~SIGN~. The Tournament of Power is a really big, ridiculous, kairological and koudan-inspired arc that operates in atemporality, so I think it just makes more sense to roll with the punches at that point.

It is because I agree one should avoid using certain transformations, that when you said that, it rapidly came to mind those scenes, which I think they might kind of defeat that idea. It's like, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan only has drawback and can't be spammed when plot demands? Even in training, not counting those under Whis and/or with Vegeta, Goku only used when Gohan asked him to go full strength. And I just remembered this one, not really a training and certainly not a gag...

Goku needing to use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to battle Artificial Human No. 17 doesn't bother me, though, because making the character that strong isn't an issue for me. I'm not interested in clear lines of strength between the characters. I think that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan should be used once the user has a better understanding of how their opponent moves and fights so as to not waste stamina unnecessarily, but I don't mind a battle cutting to the chase if we pre-establish that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan user isn't rushing in blindly.

Kaioken already existed and is a technique not a transformation. Goku using it with a mastered SSG would be fine, he would still find it lacking the same way he found Blue lacking and need to attain UI. Blue is quite literally nostalgia bait and a recolor. Goku uses Kaioken alongside Blue in the manga anyway so in both mediums he would be able to use it.

[super michael]

For the ToP I don't know why Goku didn't stay in his SSJ1 form instead of using his base form. We know that Goku and Gohan can remain in their SSJ1 form 24 hours, without any drain or strain which they managed to do by mastering their form in the ROSAT. We know that transformation waste kid, so transforming from Base to SSJ would waste ki.

SSG and SSB in the anime waste less ki than SSJ2 and SSJ3. In the manga SSB consumes a lot of ki, which is why Goku came up with the idea of using MSSB which prevents ki from leaking out and making him slim. Vegeta idea to counter SSB drain was to use SSG to get close to his enemy and SSB for attacking, therefore negating SSB drain.


Kaioken can destroy the user body, even if it gives the user a lot of power. It also drain the user a lot of ki and stamina.

[ZeroNeonix]

Blue's still my least favorite of the DBS forms, but it did briefly get us new outfits for Goku and Vegeta. I miss those outfits from the F movie.

I like new outfits, gives a sense of time passing.

Same. They look better with Blue, in my opinion. Especially with Vegeta's dark gray outfit. It contrasts well with the bright blue. But the anime had to go back to the old outfits, because nostalgia...

[Koitsukai]

Kaioken already existed and is a technique not a transformation. Goku using it with a mastered SSG would be fine, he would still find it lacking the same way he found Blue lacking and need to attain UI. Blue is quite literally nostalgia bait and a recolor. Goku uses Kaioken alongside Blue in the manga anyway so in both mediums he would be able to use it.

The thing is it would look awful with SSG, well not awful but impossible to tell from the actual form. And since SSG is a leaner form, and KK bulks you up, I think it would take away what makes SSG different.
I like that it was SSB that allowed Goku to do it, it gives something more to the form rather than just being more raw power. Agree, though, that probably SSG was good enough to control the technique.

While I agree SSB or SS Cyan was introduced way too soon, I ended up liking how it progressed.
It started out like a form with good stamina (just how shitty was the Golden form, then?), for the next arc to say it sucks in the stamina department, to the point that using it like a regular blond form can make it weaker than fucking SS.
So, the manga came up with the Switch technique and then mastering the form completely by preventing ki leakage.
The anime never addressed this issue, they just skipped the solution and went right into "SSB can dial up or down at will its power to fit the opponent while not having instant stamina drain" territory, as seen vs Krilin, Kale, and many others who shouldn't be able to withstand that power.

[JulieYBM]

Super Saiyan God sucks in the way that it doesn't lean far enough into making Goku and Vegeta look smaller. It really should just turn them into a twinky lil' femboy or, better yet, a woman.

lol Kaiou-ken with its stupid-ass multipliers fucking sucks, we shouldn't be using that shit if we're dumping Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan lol

I thought that after Battle of Gods it would be base form and Super Saiyan 1 for 90% of the time and God would only be used for an extra boost in moments of desperation. Which Toriyama and co. said was the plan going forward. They even said that with Goku absorbing the God ki into his body it would be more effective to train his base form and SSJ. 1 further than to layer on 2 & 3. Then Resurrection F added Blue, but the plan still could've worked if the series had been given more care. Like you said the Tournament of Power was one of the few times it seemed like Blue had draw backs and its use needed to be planned effectively.
Also did the writers forget that Super Saiyan God had a time limit?

The decision to include the older transformations in the Universe 6 arc onward was probably a decision made to be able to continue to use those forms for some degree of selling merchandise. It's hardly the decision that I would have made, but I'm also not being paid to make businesses more money lol

I like the animated series' Tournament of Power arc, so I tend to cut the use of the older transformations slack, since the staff included the idea that using them would give Goku a helping hand in his battles without keeping him from recovering his stamina—which we were seeing a lot of during Goku's battles after the first time he used Ultra Instinct ~SIGN~. The Tournament of Power is a really big, ridiculous, kairological and koudan-inspired arc that operates in atemporality, so I think it just makes more sense to roll with the punches at that point.

It is because I agree one should avoid using certain transformations, that when you said that, it rapidly came to mind those scenes, which I think they might kind of defeat that idea. It's like, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan only has drawback and can't be spammed when plot demands? Even in training, not counting those under Whis and/or with Vegeta, Goku only used when Gohan asked him to go full strength. And I just remembered this one, not really a training and certainly not a gag...

Goku needing to use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to battle Artificial Human No. 17 doesn't bother me, though, because making the character that strong isn't an issue for me. I'm not interested in clear lines of strength between the characters. I think that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan should be used once the user has a better understanding of how their opponent moves and fights so as to not waste stamina unnecessarily, but I don't mind a battle cutting to the chase if we pre-establish that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan user isn't rushing in blindly.

Kaioken already existed and is a technique not a transformation. Goku using it with a mastered SSG would be fine, he would still find it lacking the same way he found Blue lacking and need to attain UI. Blue is quite literally nostalgia bait and a recolor. Goku uses Kaioken alongside Blue in the manga anyway so in both mediums he would be able to use it.

I am well-aware that the Kaiou-ken is not a transformation. The issue that I have with it is that the multiplier nature of the technique is stupidly restrictive for storytelling and the only reason we would be bringing it back in the first place—after not being used since the battle with Freeza on Namek—would be for the same reason as making Super Saiyan Blue look like the original Super Saiyan form. Only here, the Super Saiyan forms never have stated multiplier nonsense in the story itself, therefore it's not actually restricting us to hard numbers.

Also, Super Saiyan Blue Kaiou-ken already exists for the Kaiou-ken nostalgia. Theoretically removing Blue from existence just to replace it with a different, less flexible nostalgia pandering is dumb. At least in the animated series, the staff just give fans both.

[QuakingStar]

Super Saiyan God sucks in the way that it doesn't lean far enough into making Goku and Vegeta look smaller. It really should just turn them into a twinky lil' femboy or, better yet, a woman.

lol Kaiou-ken with its stupid-ass multipliers fucking sucks, we shouldn't be using that shit if we're dumping Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan lol



The decision to include the older transformations in the Universe 6 arc onward was probably a decision made to be able to continue to use those forms for some degree of selling merchandise. It's hardly the decision that I would have made, but I'm also not being paid to make businesses more money lol

I like the animated series' Tournament of Power arc, so I tend to cut the use of the older transformations slack, since the staff included the idea that using them would give Goku a helping hand in his battles without keeping him from recovering his stamina—which we were seeing a lot of during Goku's battles after the first time he used Ultra Instinct ~SIGN~. The Tournament of Power is a really big, ridiculous, kairological and koudan-inspired arc that operates in atemporality, so I think it just makes more sense to roll with the punches at that point.



Goku needing to use Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to battle Artificial Human No. 17 doesn't bother me, though, because making the character that strong isn't an issue for me. I'm not interested in clear lines of strength between the characters. I think that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan should be used once the user has a better understanding of how their opponent moves and fights so as to not waste stamina unnecessarily, but I don't mind a battle cutting to the chase if we pre-establish that the Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan user isn't rushing in blindly.

Kaioken already existed and is a technique not a transformation. Goku using it with a mastered SSG would be fine, he would still find it lacking the same way he found Blue lacking and need to attain UI. Blue is quite literally nostalgia bait and a recolor. Goku uses Kaioken alongside Blue in the manga anyway so in both mediums he would be able to use it.

I am well-aware that the Kaiou-ken is not a transformation. The issue that I have with it is that the multiplier nature of the technique is stupidly restrictive for storytelling and the only reason we would be bringing it back in the first place—after not being used since the battle with Freeza on Namek—would be for the same reason as making Super Saiyan Blue look like the original Super Saiyan form. Only here, the Super Saiyan forms never have stated multiplier nonsense in the story itself, therefore it's not actually restricting us to hard numbers.

Also, Super Saiyan Blue Kaiou-ken already exists for the Kaiou-ken nostalgia. Theoretically removing Blue from existence just to replace it with a different, less flexible nostalgia pandering is dumb. At least in the animated series, the staff just give fans both.

Super Saiyan God making the user skinnier isn't the only thing it does: The eye shape, eye design, and hair color and aura color are new and use a stylized base hair shape(If you think the color's the same as Kaioken you need to go to your eye doctor, two different reds and aura designs). Again, SSB is literally just SS but Blue. For the most part SSB is literally the same body size as base form too, only for RoF the movie did they make it skinny like SSG. If multipliers is an issue(weird complaint) then we know that SSB would supposedly be 50x Super Saiyan God due to being "SSG going Super Saiyan" which is worse than SSG x20 multiplier that Kaioken could max out at. It could just be like the manga and be plain old Kaioken used with it and again, you ignored where I said SSB should not have taken SSG's place, SSG should have had a mastered state like the original SS or like SSB has before something like Kaioken would be used with it.

[ZeroNeonix]

TBH, it's kinda funny what things set off Dragon Ball fans. I have my pet peeves too, but I'm not going to be like, "My opinion is objectively true. If you disagree, you're an idiot and I hate you."

[JulieYBM]

Super Saiyan God making the user skinnier isn't the only thing it does: The eye shape, eye design, and hair color and aura color are new and use a stylized base hair shape

I am aware that those traits change, I am simply proposing that those changes do not go far enough to really make the form a stronger, more stark reversal of Goku and Vegeta's typical appearances.

(If you think the color's the same as Kaioken you need to go to your eye doctor, two different reds and aura designs).

I'm glad that I don't think that the Kaiou-ken and and Super Saiyan God look similar, then, given that I don't have insurance to visit the eye doctor!

Again, SSB is literally just SS but Blue. For the most part SSB is literally the same body size as base form too, only for RoF the movie did they make it skinny like SSG.

Super Saiyan Blue just being Super Saiyan but blue is why it looks so neat.

If multipliers is an issue(weird complaint) then we know that SSB would supposedly be 50x Super Saiyan God due to being "SSG going Super Saiyan" which is worse than SSG x20 multiplier that Kaioken could max out at. It could just be like the manga and be plain old Kaioken used with it and again, you ignored where I said SSB should not have taken SSG's place, SSG should have had a mastered state like the original SS or like SSB has before something like Kaioken would be used with it.

Super Saiyan forms do not have stated multipliers in the comics and animated series that they appear in, the Kaiou-ken does. Guide books are completely pointless and mean absolutely nothing because they are guide books, not actually reflective of the comics and cartoons that I am watching. In the comics and cartoons that I am watching, the Kaiou-ken does actually act as a multiplier for an established battle power system and, like I've been trying to communicate, that's restrictive for writing stories. Toriyama dropped both the Kaiou-ken, battle powers, and mentioning concrete changes to a character's strength because he realized that this stuff only made it harder to write battles and just got in the way of telling an interesting story.

Don't start writing a fictional story based on concrete worldbuilding nonsense, come up with a story and then build the world to tell that story. It's pretty simple writing advice and more people can learn to just follow.

TBH, it's kinda funny what things set off Dragon Ball fans. I have my pet peeves too, but I'm not going to be like, "My opinion is objectively true. If you disagree, you're an idiot and I hate you."

Eh, it's pretty easy for people to be intentionally stupid on the internet just because they get pleasure from shitting in the drinking well. This is why I tend to get tired of interacting with fans on the internet—most of the time, if you're lucky, your best discussions about the arts will be with your actual friends and not random people on social media platforms.

[super michael]

Super Saiyan forms do not have stated multipliers in the comics and animated series that they appear in, the Kaiou-ken does. Guide books are completely pointless and mean absolutely nothing because they are guide books, not actually reflective of the comics and cartoons that I am watching. In the comics and cartoons that I am watching, the Kaiou-ken does actually act as a multiplier for an established battle power system and, like I've been trying to communicate, that's restrictive for writing stories. Toriyama dropped both the Kaiou-ken, battle powers, and mentioning concrete changes to a character's strength because he realized that this stuff only made it harder to write battles and just got in the way of telling an interesting story.

Don't start writing a fictional story based on concrete worldbuilding nonsense, come up with a story and then build the world to tell that story. It's pretty simple writing advice and more people can learn to just follow.

That is true Super Saiyan multipliers was only mentioned in the guide book, in the manga it was never mentioned to have multipliers.
In the manga we have MSSB which Goku used to cancel out SSB drawback, while Future Trunks used MSSJ2 which rivals SSJ3 Goku.


It is too bad in DBS they ignored transfomation waste ki, which is why Goku and Gohan decided to remain SSJ so they don't need to waste ki transforming. SSJ doesn't drain the user ki and stamin and doesn't make them feel unnatural.

[ABED]

Super Saiyan forms do not have stated multipliers in the comics and animated series that they appear in, the Kaiou-ken does. Guide books are completely pointless and mean absolutely nothing because they are guide books, not actually reflective of the comics and cartoons that I am watching. In the comics and cartoons that I am watching, the Kaiou-ken does actually act as a multiplier for an established battle power system and, like I've been trying to communicate, that's restrictive for writing stories. Toriyama dropped both the Kaiou-ken, battle powers, and mentioning concrete changes to a character's strength because he realized that this stuff only made it harder to write battles and just got in the way of telling an interesting story.

Don't start writing a fictional story based on concrete worldbuilding nonsense, come up with a story and then build the world to tell that story. It's pretty simple writing advice and more people can learn to just follow.

That is true Super Saiyan multipliers was only mentioned in the guide book, in the manga it was never mentioned to have multipliers.
In the manga we have MSSB which Goku used to cancel out SSB drawback, while Future Trunks used MSSJ2 which rivals SSJ3 Goku.


It is too bad in DBS they ignored transfomation waste ki, which is why Goku and Gohan decided to remain SSJ so they don't need to waste ki transforming. SSJ doesn't drain the user ki and stamin and doesn't make them feel unnatural.

I know you have a hatred for Super that will never die, but Super makes it clear that SS Blue wastes a lot of ki.

I know people have used the numbers from guidebooks but unless it's said in the story, there's no reason to think any of these things are multipliers.

[super michael]

Super Saiyan forms do not have stated multipliers in the comics and animated series that they appear in, the Kaiou-ken does. Guide books are completely pointless and mean absolutely nothing because they are guide books, not actually reflective of the comics and cartoons that I am watching. In the comics and cartoons that I am watching, the Kaiou-ken does actually act as a multiplier for an established battle power system and, like I've been trying to communicate, that's restrictive for writing stories. Toriyama dropped both the Kaiou-ken, battle powers, and mentioning concrete changes to a character's strength because he realized that this stuff only made it harder to write battles and just got in the way of telling an interesting story.

Don't start writing a fictional story based on concrete worldbuilding nonsense, come up with a story and then build the world to tell that story. It's pretty simple writing advice and more people can learn to just follow.

That is true Super Saiyan multipliers was only mentioned in the guide book, in the manga it was never mentioned to have multipliers.
In the manga we have MSSB which Goku used to cancel out SSB drawback, while Future Trunks used MSSJ2 which rivals SSJ3 Goku.


It is too bad in DBS they ignored transfomation waste ki, which is why Goku and Gohan decided to remain SSJ so they don't need to waste ki transforming. SSJ doesn't drain the user ki and stamin and doesn't make them feel unnatural.

I know you have a hatred for Super that will never die, but Super makes it clear that SS Blue wastes a lot of ki.

I know people have used the numbers from guidebooks but unless it's said in the story, there's no reason to think any of these things are multipliers.

I am aware SSB uses a lot of ki, so being in that form the entire time is impossible. However being SSJ1 the entire time is 100% possible, that is what I mean DBS ignores. Being SSJ1 time the entire time is better than staying in their base form, since transformation waste ki.

If Goku and Gohan went to the Cell Games in their base form, they would need to waste ki by transforming into their SSJ1 form. However by staying in their SSJ1 form the entire time, they don't need to waste ki by transforming.

The only thing we know about Super Saiyan 1 is that it is stronger than Kaioken 20x.

Edit there is no evidence that a Saiyan can stay SSJ2, SSJ3, SSG and SSB the entire time like SSJ1.