Non-thread-worthy discussions

[QuakingStar]

It never made sense why Vegito in Goku Black Saga looks exactly the same like in the Buu Saga, Vegeta is wearing an armor, so why Vegito wasn't wearing a armor I have no clue. They could have made it different for in universe and for merchandise.

DBS Super Hero Gotenks makes zero sense. Trunks has blue hair, yet Gotenks has purple hair like in DBZ and DBS.

A lot of things about DBS are actually pretty bad and ridiculous, you brought up a few of those things already and here. SSB is one of them, it's just a recolor of SS. I liked how UI form looks to be an actual evolution of SSG with how Toriyama drew and portrayed it too. I also feel like UI Sign should have been a one time thing only, and never usable again with TUI being pure nonsense as it doesn't even match the requirements to use UI. GT obviously has problems for sure, but DBS is just as bad when considering all the weird decisions etc.

[DanielSSJ]

A lot of things about DBS are actually pretty bad and ridiculous, you brought up a few of those things already and here. SSB is one of them, it's just a recolor of SS. I liked how UI form looks to be an actual evolution of SSG with how Toriyama drew and portrayed it too. I also feel like UI Sign should have been a one time thing only, and never usable again with TUI being pure nonsense as it doesn't even match the requirements to use UI. GT obviously has problems for sure, but DBS is just as bad when considering all the weird decisions etc.

I think that works if you go with the idea that the Ultra Instinct form is literally a mutant evolved version of Super Saiyan God Goku uses to use the technique, but I do question it when Moro's fur also turns silver when he uses Ultra Instinct. You're not a Saiyan, why is your hair changing color?

[WittyUsername]

The thing about Super Saiyan Blue draining stamina was also weird to me. Goku’s fight against Golden Freeza hammered home this idea that Freeza’s gold form was inefficient because of how much ki it drained, and then one arc later, we’re told that SSB has more or less the same drawback.

What’s even worse is that despite this supposed drawback, Goku and Vegeta still repeatedly spam the form throughout DBS, especially the Tournament of Power, which is all supposed to take place over the course of just 48 minutes. Ultimately, the idea that SSB drains stamina ends up being a case of tell not show, especially when Toei couldn’t help but stack Kaioken on top of it.

[The Dark Knight]

The thing about Super Saiyan Blue draining stamina was also weird to me. Goku’s fight against Golden Freeza hammered home this idea that Freeza’s gold form was inefficient because of how much ki it drained, and then one arc later, we’re told that SSB has more or less the same drawback.

This is the result of the clear lack of planning on everyone's end, as well as Toriyama's inability to make things up as he went along and make it work like he did back in the day.

[Koitsukai]

The thing about Super Saiyan Blue draining stamina was also weird to me. Goku’s fight against Golden Freeza hammered home this idea that Freeza’s gold form was inefficient because of how much ki it drained, and then one arc later, we’re told that SSB has more or less the same drawback.

What’s even worse is that despite this supposed drawback, Goku and Vegeta still repeatedly spam the form throughout DBS, especially the Tournament of Power, which is all supposed to take place over the course of just 48 minutes. Ultimately, the idea that SSB drains stamina ends up being a case of tell not show, especially when Toei couldn’t help but stack Kaioken on top of it.

While a huge contradiction, the stamina issue would've been a great excuse to allow SSG back and have it be the default form for the rest of the show until some big moment like the climax of the Zamasu arc or for episode 107 where SSB could've come back as a flawless or perfected form.

[DanielSSJ]

I think the manga makes better use of Super Saiyan Blue's energy drain, and hey! The manga actually keeps Super Saiyan God around as a less intensive alternative for multiple arcs!

[JulieYBM]

When Goku and Vegeta use Blue in the Tournament of Power, they're only using it for seconds at a time thanks to the koudan-style storytelling and use of kairological time and atemporality. The switching in-and-out actually works in that regard.

[WittyUsername]

I just think the whole thing is emblematic of how inconsistent the whole concept of transformations are in Super.

-Super Saiyan God is a temporary form that Goku only needed as gateway to obtaining God ki. No, wait, it’s now another Super Saiyan form that he and Vegeta can use whenever they want.

-Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Goku and Vegeta tapping into the Super Saiyan transformation after they mastered God ki. No, wait, it’s now its own distinct form. Also, it’s called Super Saiyan Blue now and it’s bad because it drains stamina, even though that apparently wasn’t a problem in Resurrection ‘F’.

-Ultra Instinct is Goku achieving a calm state of mind that allows him to effortlessly move without even thinking about it. No, wait, it’s a shiny new transformation that apparently takes a lot out of Goku and that he loses after the ToP and has to relearn.

Then there’s all those other forms that just sort of come out of nowhere, like Super Saiyan Rage and Beast. Also, there’s Ultra Ego, which I have mixed feelings about, though I admit I’m more receptive to it now than I was back when it was introduced.

[QuakingStar]

A lot of things about DBS are actually pretty bad and ridiculous, you brought up a few of those things already and here. SSB is one of them, it's just a recolor of SS. I liked how UI form looks to be an actual evolution of SSG with how Toriyama drew and portrayed it too. I also feel like UI Sign should have been a one time thing only, and never usable again with TUI being pure nonsense as it doesn't even match the requirements to use UI. GT obviously has problems for sure, but DBS is just as bad when considering all the weird decisions etc.

I think that works if you go with the idea that the Ultra Instinct form is literally a mutant evolved version of Super Saiyan God Goku uses to use the technique, but I do question it when Moro's fur also turns silver when he uses Ultra Instinct. You're not a Saiyan, why is your hair changing color?

I think the idea is that the Angels all have whiteish hair so that's why when using UI which is an Angel technique Moro would have white hair. For Goku, having Silver hair was probably decided when they made Fused Zamasu have white hair, whereas they even commented on the whole FZ having white hair deal. Honestly, for Goku's form I think going with Silver was the way to go anyway.

[JulieYBM]

I just think the whole thing is emblematic of how inconsistent the whole concept of transformations are in Super.

-Super Saiyan God is a temporary form that Goku only needed as gateway to obtaining God ki. No, wait, it’s now another Super Saiyan form that he and Vegeta can use whenever they want.

-Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Goku and Vegeta tapping into the Super Saiyan transformation after they mastered God ki. No, wait, it’s now its own distinct form. Also, it’s called Super Saiyan Blue now and it’s bad because it drains stamina, even though that apparently wasn’t a problem in Resurrection ‘F’.

-Ultra Instinct is Goku achieving a calm state of mind that allows him to effortlessly move without even thinking about it. No, wait, it’s a shiny new transformation that apparently takes a lot out of Goku and that he loses after the ToP and has to relearn.

Then there’s all those other forms that just sort of come out of nowhere, like Super Saiyan Rage and Beast. Also, there’s Ultra Ego, which I have mixed feelings about, though I admit I’m more receptive to it now than I was back when it was introduced.

Yeah, Dragon Ball is the kind of series that you just wind up "rolling with the punches" a lot with. Toriyama doesn't care about the sort of things you or I might care about, he'll let the anime change rules because they need to sell merchandise, and that means we now get the old transformations back.

I don't really think it's this big deal that the transformations' rules wind up changing like they do. People are often wrong about a lot of things in real life, so it makes sense that all of these new, first-time forms wind up having new parts that the characters discover later on. It also keeps the battles interesting.

[WittyUsername]

I just think the whole thing is emblematic of how inconsistent the whole concept of transformations are in Super.

-Super Saiyan God is a temporary form that Goku only needed as gateway to obtaining God ki. No, wait, it’s now another Super Saiyan form that he and Vegeta can use whenever they want.

-Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Goku and Vegeta tapping into the Super Saiyan transformation after they mastered God ki. No, wait, it’s now its own distinct form. Also, it’s called Super Saiyan Blue now and it’s bad because it drains stamina, even though that apparently wasn’t a problem in Resurrection ‘F’.

-Ultra Instinct is Goku achieving a calm state of mind that allows him to effortlessly move without even thinking about it. No, wait, it’s a shiny new transformation that apparently takes a lot out of Goku and that he loses after the ToP and has to relearn.

Then there’s all those other forms that just sort of come out of nowhere, like Super Saiyan Rage and Beast. Also, there’s Ultra Ego, which I have mixed feelings about, though I admit I’m more receptive to it now than I was back when it was introduced.

Yeah, Dragon Ball is the kind of series that you just wind up "rolling with the punches" a lot with. Toriyama doesn't care about the sort of things you or I might care about, he'll let the anime change rules because they need to sell merchandise, and that means we now get the old transformations back.

I don't really think it's this big deal that the transformations' rules wind up changing like they do. People are often wrong about a lot of things in real life, so it makes sense that all of these new, first-time forms wind up having new parts that the characters discover later on. It also keeps the battles interesting.

I admit that it’s not really a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but it does strike me as lame that they introduced these genuinely interesting concepts, only to backtrack on them for the sake of marketing. It highlights how corporate the entire DBS era feels.

I will always have a soft spot for Super Saiyan God, but it’s a bit disappointing to me that it’s been reduced to just another power-up. Maybe I’d be more ok with it if it didn’t get overshadowed by Super Saiyan Blue and Ultra Instinct. Speaking of UI, I can’t say I’m a fan of Toriyama’s approach of treating it as a palette swapped SSG. If it has to be a form, I’d prefer that it doesn’t change Goku’s physique in either direction. It shouldn’t make him bulkier or slimmer.

[super michael]

I just think the whole thing is emblematic of how inconsistent the whole concept of transformations are in Super.

-Super Saiyan God is a temporary form that Goku only needed as gateway to obtaining God ki. No, wait, it’s now another Super Saiyan form that he and Vegeta can use whenever they want.

-Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Goku and Vegeta tapping into the Super Saiyan transformation after they mastered God ki. No, wait, it’s now its own distinct form. Also, it’s called Super Saiyan Blue now and it’s bad because it drains stamina, even though that apparently wasn’t a problem in Resurrection ‘F’.

-Ultra Instinct is Goku achieving a calm state of mind that allows him to effortlessly move without even thinking about it. No, wait, it’s a shiny new transformation that apparently takes a lot out of Goku and that he loses after the ToP and has to relearn.

Then there’s all those other forms that just sort of come out of nowhere, like Super Saiyan Rage and Beast. Also, there’s Ultra Ego, which I have mixed feelings about, though I admit I’m more receptive to it now than I was back when it was introduced.

Yeah, Dragon Ball is the kind of series that you just wind up "rolling with the punches" a lot with. Toriyama doesn't care about the sort of things you or I might care about, he'll let the anime change rules because they need to sell merchandise, and that means we now get the old transformations back.

I don't really think it's this big deal that the transformations' rules wind up changing like they do. People are often wrong about a lot of things in real life, so it makes sense that all of these new, first-time forms wind up having new parts that the characters discover later on. It also keeps the battles interesting.

Goku was able to figure out SSJ Grade 3 weakness just from experiencing that form for the first time.
Vegeta it is assumed that he figured out SSJ3 Grade weakness, at least from Future Trunks point of view.
Gotenks was able to figure out SSJ3 weakness by training in the ROSAT.

Before Universe 6 and Universe 7 tournament, both Goku and Vegeta were training in the ROSAT. It is weird that neither of them would find out a obvious weakness.
In RoF no one made any comments about Goku and Vegeta ki getting weaker from using SSB.

[JulieYBM]

I admit that it’s not really a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but it does strike me as lame that they introduced these genuinely interesting concepts, only to backtrack on them for the sake of marketing. It highlights how corporate the entire DBS era feels.

I will always have a soft spot for Super Saiyan God, but it’s a bit disappointing to me that it’s been reduced to just another power-up. Maybe I’d be more ok with it if it didn’t get overshadowed by Super Saiyan Blue and Ultra Instinct. Speaking of UI, I can’t say I’m a fan of Toriyama’s approach of treating it as a palette swapped SSG. If it has to be a form, I’d prefer that it doesn’t change Goku’s physique in either direction. It shouldn’t make him bulkier or slimmer.

I can't say that I disagree, but that's the unfortunate nature of commercial art, too. If Nagamine and Tomioka had both been involved with the series from the beginning—and we allowed creative-leeway—I'm curious how much more the overall experience would reflect the more interesting ideas that we see in the Tournament of Power and Super: Broly—switching between the forms to reserve power or for different purposes and the such. Or Goku and the others fighting with tactics and not just transforming immediately, that sort of thing.

In Super: Broly, Super Saiyan God Goku traps Broly in a supposedly godly technique, so how else would that have been pushed forward if, say, Tomioka Atsuhiro was able to write scripts and make up whatever rules he wanted? This is the same guy that was turning Pokemon moves into deflection techniques and using physics so that Pocchama and Buizel could both attack and defend at the same time. In Dragon Ball Super Episode #123, Tomioka wrote Goku planting explosive mines made of ki to either stop or distract Jiren long enough for Goku to nearly knock out of bounds. Heck, when Gohan is fighting against Lavender in the exhibition tournament, he uses his ki as a sonar to better track Lavender's movements. That's not the sort of thing that Toriyama would not think to write but that's the level of creativity that makes me curious how Super Saiyan God could have been used in different ways from, say, Blue.

I love Dragon Ball Super, but it's so fucked over by production circumstances and needing to try to match Toriyama's style of writing. The 2015 animated series is at its best when it's just letting the staff do their own thing.

[Michelle91]

I personally hate DB Power Scalers because they suck up the fun of the series. They only care about feats and how character a is stronger than character b. They always take things for face vaule when most of the time, most character statements aren't meant to be taken seriously.

[dbgtFO]

I personally hate DB Power Scalers because they suck up the fun of the series. They only care about feats and how character a is stronger than character b. They always take things for face vaule when most of the time, most character statements aren't meant to be taken seriously.

And here I am thinking Toriyama should have kept on with power levels and clear cut power scaling, as it kept him honest and any sneakily changing of characters' established strength placement would be an obvious inconsistency and require proper justification.

I usually don't care about powerscaling in so far as how much you can destroy past blowing up a planet, as I already find that to be more than enough, but the lack of consistency in the so called lifting and gravity feats plus speed feats are annoying, because it's simple numbers, they should always go way up, yet Toriyama somehow didn't get much more above the established numbers from the Freeza and Android Arcs...

But who beats who is fun for me, but the problem is fundamentally there's no correct answer, when it comes to the side characters, as Toriyama gave them less and less power comparisons to past benchmarks, so it's impossible to know and that leads to insane debates, where we can't really get anywhere...

[super michael]

Power scale is how we can tell who is stronger between two character, however they gain their power is important. If a character makes huge gains from things like training in a regular gym or training with Mr Satan, then that is lazy writing when there are extraordinary and magical ways they can make their gains. Beating up weaklings as a way to gain power is lazy.

I wonder if DBS Super Hero will get a remake. It would be cool if they can make some improvement. Teen Gotenks perfect fusion should appear, then he can appear in Dragon Ball games.

[JulieYBM]

I personally hate DB Power Scalers because they suck up the fun of the series. They only care about feats and how character a is stronger than character b. They always take things for face vaule when most of the time, most character statements aren't meant to be taken seriously.

And here I am thinking Toriyama should have kept on with power levels and clear cut power scaling, as it kept him honest and any sneakily changing of characters' established strength placement would be an obvious inconsistency and require proper justification.

I usually don't care about powerscaling in so far as how much you can destroy past blowing up a planet, as I already find that to be more than enough, but the lack of consistency in the so called lifting and gravity feats plus speed feats are annoying, because it's simple numbers, they should always go way up, yet Toriyama somehow didn't get much more above the established numbers from the Freeza and Android Arcs...

But who beats who is fun for me, but the problem is fundamentally there's no correct answer, when it comes to the side characters, as Toriyama gave them less and less power comparisons to past benchmarks, so it's impossible to know and that leads to insane debates, where we can't really get anywhere...

I think that's something that can be accomplished without rigid power scaling stuff. As cool a reveal as the class system is in Yuu Yuu Hakusho, what makes those fights so fun are the character conflicts. That's what makes any battle and training sequence fun. Toriyama not really wanting to balance careful internal logic with what story he desires to tell was definitely a weakness of his as a writer, but we should still avoid rigid attempts to work within a system. The battle power system was established, then it was torn apart as a crutch for the Freeza Force—a good move that kept battles unpredictable.

I think Pocket Monsters got really good about training and the such during Advanced Generation, where it took the Pokemon multiple episodes stretched over time learn new moves or combinations and tactics. Given how Pikachu's Iron Tail was handled, I'm curious how—assuming that Tomioka Atsuhiro returns for Dragon Ball Super: The Galactic Patrol—the training for Ultra Instinct is going to go. Tomioka has a history of really nailing that stuff.

[MasenkoHA]

Power levels were never suppose to be a concrete aspect of the series lore. Every single character that relied on them was made fun for being such a tool.

[super michael]

I think Pocket Monsters got really good about training and the such during Advanced Generation, where it took the Pokemon multiple episodes stretched over time learn new moves or combinations and tactics. Given how Pikachu's Iron Tail was handled, I'm curious how—assuming that Tomioka Atsuhiro returns for Dragon Ball Super: The Galactic Patrol—the training for Ultra Instinct is going to go. Tomioka has a history of really nailing that stuff.

I watched Pokemon from the beginning until Pokemon X and Y, I think the introduction of Pokemon Content was good, turning combat moves into moves that appeals the Pokemon. Some content moves were inspired to be used as a battle move.

I checked Tomioka Atsuhiro on Google and he has worked on many great anime:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atsuhiro_Tomioka
He has a long list of anime that he worked on, many of them are great anime.


Just curious is the new anime of Pokemon worth watching? I quit when Pokemon Sun/Moon came out the anime. I don't mind that the main character has changed. I have a huge backlog of anime that I plan to watch in the future.

[ABED]

Power scale is how we can tell who is stronger between two character, however they gain their power is important. If a character makes huge gains from things like training in a regular gym or training with Mr Satan, then that is lazy writing when there are extraordinary and magical ways they can make their gains. Beating up weaklings as a way to gain power is lazy.

I wonder if DBS Super Hero will get a remake. It would be cool if they can make some improvement. Teen Gotenks perfect fusion should appear, then he can appear in Dragon Ball games.

gains in the gym are lazy writing. beating up weaklings is lazy. But MAGIC is not lazy? Magic is by its nature something from nothing.