Unpopular DB opinions

[WittyUsername]

I agree that it’s really dumb and even potentially problematic to suggest that Goku’s core personality traits are a result of his biology, but that’s the route Toriyama chose to go in and it’s something that the DBS era has frequently reinforced. The simple fact is that Dragon Ball very much seems to be a world where, unless you’re an Earthling, your genetic composition apparently factors into who you are as a person. Saiyans love fighting, Namekians are peaceful, Freeza’s race is apparently evil and conniving, Magetta’s race is extremely sensitive to name calling, etc.

[JulieYBM]

It's definitely a writing choice that has bothered me the older that I've gotten. I think that Toriyama, his various changing editors and the publishing side of things should have been a lot more responsible with what they were putting out into the comic, especially given the target audience of children.

[super michael]

I agree that it’s really dumb and even potentially problematic to suggest that Goku’s core personality traits are a result of his biology, but that’s the route Toriyama chose to go in and it’s something that the DBS era has frequently reinforced. The simple fact is that Dragon Ball very much seems to be a world where, unless you’re an Earthling, your genetic composition apparently factors into who you are as a person. Saiyans love fighting, Namekians are peaceful, Freeza’s race is apparently evil and conniving, Magetta’s race is extremely sensitive to name calling, etc.

There are Dragon Clan Namekian and Warrior Clan Namekians that focus on battle.

In the Moro chapter wonders how the gap between himself and Goku got so big, when the answer should be obvious. Piccolo himself gained a huge power boost by training with Goku and Gohan for 3 years. Goku trained with the best in the universe, while Piccolo limits his training on earth and only trains with Gohan.

[WittyUsername]

I agree that it’s really dumb and even potentially problematic to suggest that Goku’s core personality traits are a result of his biology, but that’s the route Toriyama chose to go in and it’s something that the DBS era has frequently reinforced. The simple fact is that Dragon Ball very much seems to be a world where, unless you’re an Earthling, your genetic composition apparently factors into who you are as a person. Saiyans love fighting, Namekians are peaceful, Freeza’s race is apparently evil and conniving, Magetta’s race is extremely sensitive to name calling, etc.

There are Dragon Clan Namekian and Warrior Clan Namekians that focus on battle.

In the Moro chapter wonders how the gap between himself and Goku got so big, when the answer should be obvious. Piccolo himself gained a huge power boost by training with Goku and Gohan for 3 years. Goku trained with the best in the universe, while Piccolo limits his training on earth and only trains with Gohan.

That’s not really relevant to what I said. Namekians, whether they’re of the Dragon Clan or the Warrior Clan, are established as a naturally peaceful race that lives in harmony on their planet.

[ABED]

Because of love of fighting or athletics and the like to an absurd degree isn't unique to Saiyans. Many humans fall into that category as well. As for the text in the show, that's the characters but not the story itself. Also, as an explanation, it's lame. His genetics make him do it? Stories are about people, and some people place way too much importance on their passions at the exclusion of nearly anything else including common sense. Goku being an alien was a nice plot twist but nothing more.

I mean, you can feel however you want to about it, but I think it's a bit silly to argue that all the characters who repeatedly attribute Goku's character traits to his Saiyan heritage were meant by Toriyama to be wrong or mistaken. Like yeah, it's stupid and reductive, and there are plenty of examples of non-Saiyans who are like that, too, but when the author keeps having characters say "Goku must be like that because he's a Saiyan", it gets a bit hard to not take that as the message he's trying to get across.

Why? Just because a lot of them say it? Is there some threshold where it's indisputable? Keep in mind that it's a world with free will and Goku is 1 of 1. He's unique among the Saiyans. He doesn't fight like them. He's not barbaric like them. He doesn't fight for the same reasons as them.

I agree that it’s really dumb and even potentially problematic to suggest that Goku’s core personality traits are a result of his biology, but that’s the route Toriyama chose to go in and it’s something that the DBS era has frequently reinforced. The simple fact is that Dragon Ball very much seems to be a world where, unless you’re an Earthling, your genetic composition apparently factors into who you are as a person. Saiyans love fighting, Namekians are peaceful, Freeza’s race is apparently evil and conniving, Magetta’s race is extremely sensitive to name calling, etc.

Except that Piccolo and Tenshinhan showed those tendencies as well.

[Zephyr]

I mean, you can feel however you want to about it, but I think it's a bit silly to argue that all the characters who repeatedly attribute Goku's character traits to his Saiyan heritage were meant by Toriyama to be wrong or mistaken. Like yeah, it's stupid and reductive, and there are plenty of examples of non-Saiyans who are like that, too, but when the author keeps having characters say "Goku must be like that because he's a Saiyan", it gets a bit hard to not take that as the message he's trying to get across.

I do think it's clear that that is the message Toriyama was trying to get across, but it's so at odds with the rest of the text that to me it's one of the actual instances of bad writing in DB. Characters just saying things that are demonstrably not true lol.

Except that Piccolo and Tenshinhan showed those tendencies as well.

Yamcha too. He's very stoked when they're on their way to Red Ribbon HQ.

[super michael]

If I am not mistaken Tarble doesn't enjoy to fight and he is a pure blooded Saiyan.

Namekians are stronger than Planet Vegeta Saiyan, excluding Vegeta when he transforms into his Oozaru which reaches 180,000.


I believe Toyotaro is a good manga writer, I enjoyed reading Dragon Ball Super that he wrote. I hope he continues writing more chapter for Dragon Ball.

[WittyUsername]

When the text constantly attributes Goku’s love of fighting to his Saiyan heritage and no one in-universe ever offers a rebuttal, then it’s fair to say that, yes, that was indeed the point Toriyama wanted to get across.

[ABED]

When the text constantly attributes Goku’s love of fighting to his Saiyan heritage and no one in-universe ever offers a rebuttal, then it’s fair to say that, yes, that was indeed the point Toriyama wanted to get across.

Disagree. They all love fighting. Why doesn't he have the other psychological traits Saiyans typically have? If we're going to say the story attributes his love of fighting to his heritage, we also have acknowledge that they say he's unique among Saiyans..

The kind of stuff I'm talking about is when people attribute Goku's fight against Freeza as him fighting against his Saiyan nature. When he is barely holding onto his sanity after turning Super Saiyan, they attribute it to him fighting against his Saiyan nature as opposed to not letting his anger get the best of him after his best friend was just callously murdered and his own child threatened. Letting Freeza got was some act of compassion that was him fighting against his Saiyan nature, and not just who Goku is. They aren't offering deep insight into character or psychology.

[DanielSSJ]

Why? Just because a lot of them say it? Is there some threshold where it's indisputable? Keep in mind that it's a world with free will and Goku is 1 of 1. He's unique among the Saiyans. He doesn't fight like them. He's not barbaric like them. He doesn't fight for the same reasons as them.

It's not a world of free will, though. It's a world where everything is decided upon by the whims of the author, and per the author, Goku's like that because he's a Saiyan. What you're really criticizing is the writing, not the fans' interpretation of the writing. Realistically, Saiyans would be multifaceted people and not a monolith, but they're not. They're characters in a comic. They can only be as deep or shallow as the author allows. And Goku's uniqueness? That's cuz of brain damage. He was just as barbaric as the rest of the Saiyans until he conked his head and his personality flipped.

I do think it's clear that that is the message Toriyama was trying to get across, but it's so at odds with the rest of the text that to me it's one of the actual instances of bad writing in DB. Characters just saying things that are demonstrably not true lol.

No disagreements there.

[ABED]

Why? Just because a lot of them say it? Is there some threshold where it's indisputable? Keep in mind that it's a world with free will and Goku is 1 of 1. He's unique among the Saiyans. He doesn't fight like them. He's not barbaric like them. He doesn't fight for the same reasons as them.

It's not a world of free will, though. It's a world where everything is decided upon by the whims of the author, and per the author, Goku's like that because he's a Saiyan. What you're really criticizing is the writing, not the fans' interpretation of the writing. Realistically, Saiyans would be multifaceted people and not a monolith, but they're not. They're characters in a comic. They can only be as deep or shallow as the author allows. And Goku's uniqueness? That's cuz of brain damage. He was just as barbaric as the rest of the Saiyans until he conked his head and his personality flipped.

I do think it's clear that that is the message Toriyama was trying to get across, but it's so at odds with the rest of the text that to me it's one of the actual instances of bad writing in DB. Characters just saying things that are demonstrably not true lol.

No disagreements there.

No, I'm pointing out that you are dismissing the full context. Yes, Dragon Ball world is a world of free will. The characters aren't bound to do things because of genetics. yes, many of the characters say he does what he does bc he's a Saiyan, but they also say he's 1 of 1. He doesn't act like a typical Saiyan. Toriyama writes them to not act in accordance to just their genes. If you were right and the characters saying those things about Goku should be taken as gospel, why is Piccolo the same way?

Okay, so he has brain damage so that's why he's unique, but he also does what he does because he's a Saiyan? Which is it? And I don't think this is an instance of bad writing. I think people in that world are very simple and look for very simplistic explanations.

I wasn't thinking this would get this much traction.

[MasenkoHA]

I think the problem is the characters are matter of factly making these statements about aspect of Goku’s characters being innately Saiyan

Loves fighting? It’s because he’s a Saiyan not because Grandpa Gohan raisesf him in martial artd characters like Yamcha and Tenshinhan who also love fighting.

His love of food? Saiyan appetite. Not because he’s a country bumpkin who enjoys the simple pleasures in life and because working out so intensely would create a huge appetite. Remember when Kuririn also pigged out on the food because of the Kame Sennin training? Apparently Toriyama didn’t

Marriage to Chi Chi? Saiyans love strong women. What do you mean Goku only married her because he agreed to keep a promise to a woman he met one time six years ago when he thought he was agreeing to food?

[WittyUsername]

Again, if the idea is that all the characters who attribute Goku’s key personality traits to his Saiyan biology are wrong, then it’s kinda weird that the narrative never goes through the trouble of refuting it. It’s presented within the story as an undeniable fact that Goku’s personality can be explained away by him being a Saiyan, hence why Vegeta shares his singleminded obsession with fighting and has a similarly massive appetite.

It’s true that Goku’s love of fighting and his appetite were not originally attributable to his alien heritage, but that’s because he wasn’t originally meant to be an alien.

[KingVegetto]

I feel like Dragon Ball Evolution has been getting the Batman and Robin treatment where people try to turn criticisms around in its favor which ignores the real problem that both movies are boring as fuck and not “entertaining bad movies”

“People hate Batman and Robin because it’s a modern adaptation of the Adam West show and not dark and serious like Batman fans have been expecting since the 80s” okay yeah but also it’s actually a really boring two hour toy commercial and no amount of ice puns, homoerotic art direction, or Uma Thurman disregarding her ability to act to do a Drag Queen performance is going to change that.


And now Dragon Ball Evolution is getting the “it’s hated for being an unfaithful adaptation to the original story but it’s a fun kind of bad or something” but no, take away the Dragon Ball IP and it’s every Hollywood Kung fu movie ever. Chosen one narrative to justify white guy lead! Hong Kong stars too good to be in this crap! Like maybe 12 people would have known this movie existed if it was just called The Prometheus Orbs

I never got the dislike for Batman and Robin myself, so that might explain why I enjoyed Evolution.

[The Dark Knight]

I feel like Dragon Ball Evolution has been getting the Batman and Robin treatment where people try to turn criticisms around in its favor which ignores the real problem that both movies are boring as fuck and not “entertaining bad movies”

I think the reason Batman & Robin is getting a pass now is because of how many good Batman movies there are in comparison. Before that we got 89, Returns, & Forever. Since then we've gotten Nolan's trilogy & Reeves' The Batman, with its sequel said to be shaping up to be even better than the first one. It's hard to stay mad at a movie when the other 8 are varying degrees of good and great.

[super michael]

I think the problem is the characters are matter of factly making these statements about aspect of Goku’s characters being innately Saiyan

Loves fighting? It’s because he’s a Saiyan not because Grandpa Gohan raisesf him in martial artd characters like Yamcha and Tenshinhan who also love fighting.

His love of food? Saiyan appetite. Not because he’s a country bumpkin who enjoys the simple pleasures in life and because working out so intensely would create a huge appetite. Remember when Kuririn also pigged out on the food because of the Kame Sennin training? Apparently Toriyama didn’t

Marriage to Chi Chi? Saiyans love strong women. What do you mean Goku only married her because he agreed to keep a promise to a woman he met one time six years ago when he thought he was agreeing to food?

Saiyan love for fighting was introduced in DBZ, however its turns even hybrid has that instinct in DBS. Gohan said it himself in DBS that his saiyan blood was getting him excited to fight, which doesn't make sense since Gohan said it himself in the Cell Games that he doesn't enjoy to fight like his father.

In Dragon Ball I don't think anyone has a appetite as big as the Saiyan and Saiyan hybrid. I am thinking of the tournaments that the Saiyans ate, in the 21st Martial Art Tournament Goku ate so much that Master Roshi had to use his prize money to pay for the food. In the 25th Martial Art Tournament Kuririn moments how Saiyans has a big appetite.

Marrying a strong wife was introduced in DBS (anime version), that was never mentioned in Dragon Ball or Dragon Ball Z.



Saiyans doesn't need to have hair cut, due to their genetics. If a human or saiyan hybrid doesn't have hair cut, then their hair gets really long. Their hair are always the same. Transformation is due to their genetics.

[JulieYBM]

*Me, being fed into a wood chipper*

The Nolan films are bad, conservative films that have no sauce and The Dark Knight is hilariously just a remake of Heat (1995)!!!

[The Dark Knight]

*Me, being fed into a wood chipper*

The Nolan films are bad, conservative films that have no sauce and The Dark Knight is hilariously just a remake of Heat (1995)!!!

I am turning the wood chipper on as we speak; someone throw her in, preferably feet first so she can really feel what we felt reading this "opinion".

[WittyUsername]

In general, DBE is a generically bad film. It’s just kinda bland and forgettable, not some egregious crime against cinema or something that’s so bad it’s good. That’s why it’s largely been forgotten about.

[Koitsukai]

While, yes, Goku's personality could very well be non-saiyan as he shares some traits with non-saiyans, the story goes out of its way to establish that, in his case, the cause of those traits is his DNA.
The mistake would be to assume that only saiyans can pig out and love a good fight. Others can do those things too, but when a saiyan does them it's probably their biology.

Those two explanations aren't mutually exclusive, Goku can love fighting because of his biology, while Piccolo or Tenshinhan can love it simply because they enjoy it. And Goku can love it for both reasons, as well, he body wants it and his mind likes it.