Unpopular DB opinions

[DanielSSJ]

Length is the fundamental difference. TV is inherently longer. That's my point. Spending a billion episodes is the point . That's what makes it TV.

Six or seven episode long story arcs are actually fairly common in anime that weren't grown in a lab to last forever.

[JulieYBM]

Length is the fundamental difference. TV is inherently longer. That's my point. Spending a billion episodes is the point . That's what makes it TV.

Six or seven episode long story arcs are actually fairly common in anime that weren't grown in a lab to last forever.

Just to add on to this: It's also close to what non-American live action drama television does.

Japanese cartoons have been doing single cour series—10-13 episodes, depending on the title—since at least the 1990s, too. If the rumors of Dragon Ball Super: Beerus being 19 episodes is true, that's more than a cour.

Television isn't inherently meant to go on forever. That's certainly what Americans have done, but that's never been something inherent to Japanese productions save for series like Sazae-san, which are designed to work as only episodic television. Dragon Ball has always been a mix of episodic and story arcs and, being an adaption of a comic, only existed as a television series as part of the media mix program. It was always going to be limited as a television series within the framework.

I'm not exactly against long-running series, either, I just think the idea of sacrificing the artistic vision of the people creating it is bonkers. I opine endlessly about how I think the old Pokemon animated franchise did the long-running format really well with its mix of episodic stories and story arcs combined with a healthy reuse of animation. Given that the idea after the first six cours was to keep the series running for as long as there were new games coming out, that system certainly had its benefits, but supporting the staff and their ability to turn in even better work was definitely something that should always been continually pushed for.

[ABED]

Length is the fundamental difference. TV is inherently longer. That's my point. Spending a billion episodes is the point . That's what makes it TV.

Six or seven episode long story arcs are actually fairly common in anime that weren't grown in a lab to last forever.

And yet Dragon Ball used to produce a lot more episodes. This can't be our 2 options - "last forever or movies cut up into episodes. I'm saying I find that inherently more like TV than the current model that's a handful of episodes. The quality hasn't on average been better. We've just gotten less of it. TV by its nature is a hang out medium. Even for stories with serialized plots, we get a lot more time with the characters. That's the draw of it.

Television isn't inherently meant to go on forever. That's certainly what Americans have done

That's not true and even less so these days.

[Scsigs]

I haven't seen Super:Beerus so I can't say anything about it but so many are calling for the DB to be high quality animation. Unpopular opinion, I want the opposite. I want it to be TV. Animation for TV is not premium. I don't like the idea of shorter episode orders all for the sake of "higher quality animation". I don't want to watch a film cut up into episodes.

I disagree. Super's versions of the movie plots went on too long & didn't add a ton of substantive content to justify the lengths. Battle of Gods was stretched to over 3 times the movie's length (even the extended version) & the majority of that once it gets tot he actual movie material was just a bunch of additional fighting sequences that don't matter. And that was weird because they didn't have a manga they were adapting. They were adapting a movie. I can't help but feel that it was an arbitrary episode order for the arc by Toei. IMO, a number of older, longrunning animes that adapted mangas could use this. I'd kill for Naruto & Shippuden to be cut down to just the stuff in the manga because 520 episodes, too many of which are just straight filler, pretty much all of which is universally agreed to be bad is way too goddamn much.
As for the animation, it doesn't need to be movie quality, but...come on. Super's animation is...really bad. Particularly because of its artstyle not lending well to the rushedness of the animation process they were under. You REALLY don't want that touched up? Like, I don't need the most perfect, top of the line animation to enjoy a cartoon, but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect good, consistent animation from a company that produces it on the reg & has done so consistently for decades at this point & has some of the best animators in the game working for them. And, I'll say this, before Daima, no Dragon Ball series had ever had consistently good animation. Super in particular had multiple episodes where the animation just fell completely apart due to how rushed they were. But, also, even if we ignore the bad art & animation with it, the show could easily use a revamp in the direction of various scenes, particularly the action. A lot of it fell flat due to power ups feeling lifeless, bad choreography in fights, & a lack of real creativity. To bring up the artstyle for a second, though, Yamamuro's artstyle is...not very good. The Plasticine look to everything with the unneeded highlights that are a mix of bad & sometimes don't even make sense, the meh linework, the oversaturated bright colors, etc. It all just looks bad. Daima found a happy medium with it & the animation so far of Beerus looks to be along those lines so far. Even the animation they kept has been revamped to match the new cuts, which is great.

Yeah I don't get the issue. So far it's the exact same process as Dragon Ball Kai, except there's a bit more effort into freshening up the animation.

Well, yes & no. Kai, the process was giving Q-Tec, then Toei's own editors access to raw film scans of the episodes they needed to cut down, they then remastered the shots into HD, color corrected them, sped up some things, & redrew some shots because...reasons.
Super: Beerus had them dig back into the original project files for Super, edit the lighting & coloring of the shots kept, then re-animated various other shots they didn't keep from the ground up.
The only real difference being in the voice acting, as Kai had the cast rerecord the lines because Toei didn't have the original voice recordings & that was a decade & change before AI voice separation technology was a thing, while Beerus is reusing the original takes from Super (for some reason).

It's a similar process on the surface, but very different when you go beneath it.

[Skar]

And yet Dragon Ball used to produce a lot more episodes. This can't be our 2 options - "last forever or movies cut up into episodes. I'm saying I find that inherently more like TV than the current model that's a handful of episodes. The quality hasn't on average been better. We've just gotten less of it. TV by its nature is a hang out medium. Even for stories with serialized plots, we get a lot more time with the characters. That's the draw of it.

I get what you're saying but how much actual shows have been like that within the last decade? The majority of anime is seasonal including from the series that used to air year-round. The new Bleach anime was adapting the final arc of the manga and seasonal with higher quality animation and less filler compared to the original. The One Piece manga slowed down number of chapters per year so the anime is now seasonal instead of having to resort to even more filler. It would make sense that a DB anime with even less content to adapt would be even shorter. Those had full length manga chapters while most of Super is stretching a movie script or outline that were probably shorter than a movie script.

In Hollywood there are very few shows that have more than 10 episodes per season and lasting more than a few seasons. I read that trend started with HBO shows like Sopranos and Oz. Higher quality production with fewer episodes and seasons than other serialized shows at the time. I think only current shows that still have more episodes than that are police/crime dramas like Law & Order or Chicago.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I haven't seen Super:Beerus so I can't say anything about it but so many are calling for the DB to be high quality animation. Unpopular opinion, I want the opposite. I want it to be TV. Animation for TV is not premium. I don't like the idea of shorter episode orders all for the sake of "higher quality animation". I don't want to watch a film cut up into episodes.

Dragon Ball has historically been a weekly anime, but I like that now they're experimenting with seasonal, first with Daima and recently with Super Beerus. It's nice to see Dragon Ball looking better than ever and to not have to wait years for another movie.

Why does an anime have to have lower quality animation to be TV? Live action is being given huge budgets with shows like Game of Thrones, Rings of Power, Stranger Things, The Crown and Andor. I don't see why animated shows shouldn't get the same treatment.

[JulieYBM]

It should be noted that higher quality animation is also a result of not rushing the television series out the door with zero time for proper scheduling and production. Japanese television animation's historic quality isn't necessarily a factor of money, it's a combination of time and available talent. If you not starting production on an episode a month before it has to air, it's likely going to actually be a whole lot better.

Pocket Monsters used to be twenty episodes ahead or broadcast, for example. This allowed for smarter scheduling, even as the various series were consistently growing more ambitious in quality. Iwane Masaaki was able to skip the rotation of animation directors twice just to be able to focus on the climax of Pocket Monsters: Diamond & Pearl, for example.

Anyway, good shit is possible on a TV release schedule, the production committee just needs to be patient and let animators have time to do work. I remember reading once that Nakamura Yutaka had six months to key animate 120 cuts for Tenkuu no Escaflowne Episode #2 Part B. That's wild to think about, given how most television anime are only allowed a month and a half for animation, usually. I think even Wakabayashi Atsushi's NARUTO episodes were only allowed two and a half months, although he had other industry juggernauts helping him, like Matsumoto Norio solo-ing half an episode.

Television anime is so, so cool. The people who make it deserve to have the time and resources be able to do their best work that they can be proud of.

[Zephyr]

This reminds me of the reply to complaints about "Monster of the Week" episodes: you mean I get a new monster every week?? If you're like me and you increasingly enjoy television and film for actor performances and chemistry, getting to spend more time with them being those characters together is only a positive. It's also fairly consistently interesting to see how production teams manage to build so many stories with such limited time and resources. Limitation, creativity, etc.

On the other hand, less is often more. And a limitation of runtime will of course breed its own different sort of creativity; only room for so much material, gotta figure out what to cut, what to keep, etc. Similar to a TCG where there are space limitations in deck building. But I think that's part of ABED's point: that's more the realm of something like film production, where way more stuff gets filmed than makes it into the final cut. I think something of value is lost when TV shows just become another kind of movie, a sentiment that has been confirmed for me consistently this decade as I've finally gone back and watched shows like TNG, DS9, Voyager, Buffy, Angel, and Xena for the first time.

Not everything needs to be slick looking production with a concise script. Dragon Ball, the serialized comic, isn't that, and its animated adaptation following suit feels appropriate. Its sequels following suit would also feel appropriate. I think that's one reason that Kai and all the various fan edits to remove filler sound like a nice novelty but ultimately aren't my speed. The show is the show and I already like and own the show. Even these admirable undertakings shake out to hundreds of hours of viewing, and at that point why would I not just re-watch the actual work with a fresh perspective?

To be clear, I'm not saying that I dislike every instance of "TV show that is produced like a film". Love Breaking Bad and (some of) Game of Thrones. Hell, every time I watch the extended Lord of the Rings films, its in relatively small chunks at a time while I'm laying in bed before going to sleep, which is effectively treating them like a "prestige TV show" (to the point that I don't even know what I might think of them as films lol). And I'm very interested in how DBS: Beerus will change Super into something sorta different. But I lament that pretty much every new TV show I might interested in has to be this now. I mourn the effective loss of an entire creative medium. But, ah well, there's still plenty of those I haven't yet experienced, so I guess everything's coming up Zephyr in the end regardless! Every medium is slowly being tainted by AI slop usage? Regrettable, but that frees up a ton of time for my backlog I guess.

[JulieYBM]

Less episodes per season really don't mean that something is a film, nor does it mean that something is inherent better because there are more episodes. Serial Experiments Lain isn't a film just because it's only thirteen episodes long, for example. Episodes are still structured to work like episodes when you intentionally structure them to work like episodes, which Japanese cartoons—even single cour-long seasons—do. This isn't coming at the expense of the production staff actually having the time to plan episodes, either. The big pop culture tentpole American television projects have absolutely gotten away from properly structuring their episodes, but that isn't because of their budgets, it's because executives are forcing these projects to be structured in a way to keep the audience binging for the sake of their metrics. This was especially true for Stranger Things and with, say, the MCU series produced between 2021-2025-ish, this was largely true because their episodes weren't produced by television crews that had experience with properly structuring episodes—those shows were produced by the movie side of things and lacked writers rooms and showrunners.

Dragon Ball Daima does suffer from this bad pacing and structuring of episodes for whatever reason, but again, it's not because of the staff just having a ton of extra money to spend on animation. Animation is not different from a line of dialogue, a performance from an actor, a sound effect, a placement of music, or a choice of color—it conveys ideas and feelings, just as much as any other part of filmmaking, and shouldn't be brushed off as shallow and inconsequential.

Does Dragon Ball Super: Beerus fit into the ill-structured style of binge-ready episodes formula? I don't think so, at least based off of a single episode so far. While I don't consider Episode #1 to be particularly well-directed, it does have the very basic structure of "Beerus, a God of Destruction who is not to be messed with, wakes up and seeking a strong foe. Goku is trying to make money for his family, his problem is resolved by Mr. Satan giving him money, so Goku goes off to train with Kaiou." It's a pretty boring episode that drags its feet in that regard because it has so little to say for a chunk of the episode, the Goku side of things, and as a result, it just feels like stuff is happening. I'd have just skipped all these scenes and gone straight for having the episode begin with North Kaiou shitting himself trying to entertain Beerus so that he doesn't go on a rampage and then Goku shows up, since that would have at least let us establish Beerus in a lighthearted way before introducing Goku into the equation and thus peeling back the layers of Beerus' character to show him getting progressively more serious in the face of being annoyed and challenged by Goku.

Dang, Goku really is the least interesting part of this series lol.

Production nightmare that it was aside—an issue that is, again, one of scheduling and not properly paying staff for the level of quality they were asked to bring to the table—Jujutsu Kaisen Season 2 (Episodes #25-47) is largely serialized, but still has episodes that fall into an episodic and mostly self-contained nature, like the Yuuko scenes that make up the heart of Episode #30. Episodes #25-29 are a flashback arc that sets up the rest of the season, too, while also having a beginning, middle and end. The rest of the season is a long, typical JUMP-style battle arc set across a short time frame but is tightly written and directed to hit all of the emotional beats just right. Which is all to say, these sort of longer, expanded sets of episodes that highlight the characters are absolutely possible in as 'few' episodes as a 23 episode season.

This isn't even me being against 'monster of the week' stuff that produces an episode every week for relatively no money, because I'm not! I've been a Super Sentai and Kamen Rider fan for decades. Those shows make really good use of those formulas. Heck, I'm currently watching Kamen Rider MY-TH—the current running Rider series—and Kamen Rider Kuuga, which has one of the coolest first episodes of a monster of the week series ever, I'd wager. Actually, this is me telling everyone right now to go and watch this really cool first episode of a show shot on a potato but otherwise still gorgeously directed and lavishly produced, despite the fact that the budget is a stick of chewed bubblegum and two pennies somebody found on the road side.

[ABED]

I haven't seen Super:Beerus so I can't say anything about it but so many are calling for the DB to be high quality animation. Unpopular opinion, I want the opposite. I want it to be TV. Animation for TV is not premium. I don't like the idea of shorter episode orders all for the sake of "higher quality animation". I don't want to watch a film cut up into episodes.

Dragon Ball has historically been a weekly anime, but I like that now they're experimenting with seasonal, first with Daima and recently with Super Beerus. It's nice to see Dragon Ball looking better than ever and to not have to wait years for another movie.

Why does an anime have to have lower quality animation to be TV? Live action is being given huge budgets with shows like Game of Thrones, Rings of Power, Stranger Things, The Crown and Andor. I don't see why animated shows shouldn't get the same treatment.

Are the shows appreciably better for having bigger budgets? I recently rewatched The X-Files and that show puts a lot of "prestige" big budget shows to shame both in terms of writing and aesthetics.

To be clear, I'm not saying that I dislike every instance of "TV show that is produced like a film". Love Breaking Bad

Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul don't fall into that category. There is an overarching plot and each episode plays into it, but they also have a singular goal/issue. Each episode was designed to feel satisfying on its own.

Anyway, I like some bigger budget shows. I like many that have shorter seasons. That said, I used to find another show to love every year or 2. Now, not so much because they are short and take forever to come out. "Quality" takes time. Meanwhile the time I want is quality time with the characters I enjoy. Hooray for filler.

[L3anD3RStar]

Back on the topic of this thread, here’s my spiciest, most unpopular opinion -

I hate Ultra Ego and Ultra Instinct. I think they are bad.

Not because they look bad or because they haven’t been used well. UE not having eyebrows is dumb, but UI got arguably the most hype of any transformation since the original SSJ. I like the idea of each of our Saiyans having a transformation that is exclusively theirs, that reflects their strengths and weaknesses as people.

I hate UI and UE because I see them as empowering and rewarding Goku and Vegeta’s worst traits. I mean, Goku already doesn’t think enough, so what he really needs is to think even less while letting go of all of those pesky passions that distract him! Fighting is the greatest joy of his life, and that joy is exactly what UI takes away. And I know Toyotaro made sure to say that he’s getting his emotions back as he gets better at using UI, I think it may be more plausible that Goku’s body is just getting used to the change, and he no longer notices a difference. He doesn’t need to think because he always does the right thing the first time and all the smart people admire him for it.

That’s the biggest difference between Toyotaro and Toriyama. Toriyama’s Goku made mistakes, and then had to correct them. Toyotaro’s Goku never makes mistakes, he just accidentally happened to do the perfect thing without even meaning to. So he doesn’t even need a conscience because why would he if everything he does is always right anyway?

That’s UI to me. It’s “plot armor” made manifest. It’s Goku at his worst, just mindlessly fighting and not even really enjoying it, his body just moves automatically and he doesn’t really worry about what the consequences might be. Why would he, if nothing he ever does is wrong?

The difference between him and Vegeta now is Vegeta is actually TRYING to be a good person, instead of just BEING good. Effort is wrong. And this is holding him back. It’s why UE loses it’s big debut fight, and why Beerus kicks the shit out of Vegeta, just to reinforce how little it matters what anyone deserves, feeling responsible for past mistakes is a waste of effort that distracts you from punching harder, Fate and Destiny are pure cope for losers, and he should know because HE killed the Saiyans not because he really cared if they deserved it, but just because he was mildly annoyed that day. And then he kicks Vegeta’s ass because he can and it sucks to suck, Vegeta. Stop getting distracted by little things like murdered family or lost kingdoms or your own past of horrific war crimes, and maybe you’ll turn a better color next time.

Cuz ego can only lose. Vegeta, Mr Prince of Pride, was ashamed of his people’s past crimes for five minutes and tried to do something to fix it and got the shit beaten out of him for his troubles so he knows that was a mistake. The next Granola who shows up with a justified grudge against the Saiyans will just get killed. Thanks for the lesson, Beerus. You’ve been a big help.

UI and UE might be technically their strongest forms, but it’s making them worse people. I really want them to stop training with Beerus and Whis. I think those two are very bad influences.

[Kid Buu]

To say nothing of why Goten was so smooth with the ladies, too!!

It's even funnier that Chi-Chi would have gotten pregnant around the Android/Cell arc, which is when Yamcha took Goku home and he and Chi-Chi helped nurse Goku back to life. Guess that wasn't the only thing they were doing together.

See? It's all coming together! It only makes more and more sense!

Imagine a storyline where Yamcha remarried Chi-Chi and took Goten under his wing. Would be the most interesting thing the IP has done with all 3 characters in decades.

[JulieYBM]

It's even funnier that Chi-Chi would have gotten pregnant around the Android/Cell arc, which is when Yamcha took Goku home and he and Chi-Chi helped nurse Goku back to life. Guess that wasn't the only thing they were doing together.

See? It's all coming together! It only makes more and more sense!

Imagine a storyline where Yamcha remarried Chi-Chi and took Goten under his wing. Would be the most interesting thing the IP has done with all 3 characters in decades.

Absolutely. It would truly break Dragon Ball out of being conservative as a work and enter it into a new, progressive landscape.

[DanielSSJ]

snip

100% agree with you on Ultra Ego Vegeta and the way he develops in the Granolah arc. I have some more complicated thoughts on Ultra Instinct Goku. The way I interpret it is that it doesn't literally make him thoughtless or emotionless, it just prevents unnecessary thoughts and emotions from inhibiting his actions. Fear can't make him hesitate, anger can't cloud his judgement, etc. To master martial arts is to master oneself, and that means mastering one's emotions. At least that's how I see it.

I would actually argue that "True" Ultra Instinct is a better example of what you're talking about. That Goku needs to fight with his emotions is pretty at odds with how he was written in the original series. Goku isn't Gohan. Getting angry usually only gets him into trouble, like in the Piccolo arc. Going forward from there, Goku is treated as formidable in part because he doesn't let his emotions get the better of him, he doesn't let villain trash talk or intimidation get to him. Even in regards to Super Saiyan which is born from anger, Goku considered the effect it had on his emotions to be a major flaw that needed to be corrected in the next arc. And Saiyan Pride? That thing that Vegeta used to justify every selfish and self destructive move he pulled in the original run? Goku needs to have some of THAT to become stronger? If you wanna talk about a form or state that makes Goku a worse person, I can't think of a better example.

[dragonballhero]

snip

100% agree with you on Ultra Ego Vegeta and the way he develops in the Granolah arc. I have some more complicated thoughts on Ultra Instinct Goku. The way I interpret it is that it doesn't literally make him thoughtless or emotionless, it just prevents unnecessary thoughts and emotions from inhibiting his actions. Fear can't make him hesitate, anger can't cloud his judgement, etc. To master martial arts is to master oneself, and that means mastering one's emotions. At least that's how I see it.

I would actually argue that "True" Ultra Instinct is a better example of what you're talking about. That Goku needs to fight with his emotions is pretty at odds with how he was written in the original series. Goku isn't Gohan. Getting angry usually only gets him into trouble, like in the Piccolo arc. Going forward from there, Goku is treated as formidable in part because he doesn't let his emotions get the better of him, he doesn't let villain trash talk or intimidation get to him. Even in regards to Super Saiyan which is born from anger, Goku considered the effect it had on his emotions to be a major flaw that needed to be corrected in the next arc. And Saiyan Pride? That thing that Vegeta used to justify every selfish and self destructive move he pulled in the original run? Goku needs to have some of THAT to become stronger? If you wanna talk about a form or state that makes Goku a worse person, I can't think of a better example.

Oh, I'm TOTALLY with L3anD3RStar on Ultra Ego. Like, it always rubbed me the wrong way how Vegeta seems like he's FINALLY starting to realize just how many people he's screwed over pre- AND post-coming to Earth... and of course the God of Destruction comes along to tell him 'Aw, don't worry your pretty little Widow's Peak over it. I mean, REALLY. Is anyone truly going to miss a couple of rando civilizations here and there?'

What's more, given that it's for the sake of putting him on a new path to power, Vegeta (for the most part) seems to more-or-less agree with him on that front now.

Actually, now that I'm on the subject... something that's always bothered the back of my mind is that despite Vegeta's (VERY MUCH JUSTIFIED) belief that he's going to Hell no matter what, given all of the lives he's taken...

I honestly can see a scenario where the gods or Goku... or heck, maybe even freaking BULMA somehow try to cut some sort of deal for him where (at BEST) he DOESN'T go to Heaven, but he won't suffer in the afterlife (despite deserving to suffer possibly tenfold).

Like, maybe they'll have HIM take up what more-or-less became Piccolo's role by the end of GT (i.e. Hell's "top bodyguard/warden").

As for Ultra Instinct? Yeah, I can't say I'm a fan of how Goku is subscribing to "SaIyAn pRiDe" now. THAT right there is even part of why I'm not a fan of Goku now having a more clearer idea on who Bardock and Gine were. Like... I don't know, the guy seemed like he was getting by just fine without all of that business. On that note, even if Goku HAD to start subscribing to this... I feel like Granolah SHOULDN'T have been the foe to start this with.

[DanielSSJ]

As for Ultra Instinct? Yeah, I can't say I'm a fan of how Goku is subscribing to "SaIyAn pRiDe" now. THAT right there is even part of why I'm not a fan of Goku now having a more clearer idea on who Bardock and Gine were. Like... I don't know, the guy seemed like he was getting by just fine without all of that business. On that note, even if Goku HAD to start subscribing to this... I feel like Granolah SHOULDN'T have been the foe to start this with.

The Granolah arc is my least favorite arc in all of Dragon Ball for a reason.

[dragonballhero]

As for Ultra Instinct? Yeah, I can't say I'm a fan of how Goku is subscribing to "SaIyAn pRiDe" now. THAT right there is even part of why I'm not a fan of Goku now having a more clearer idea on who Bardock and Gine were. Like... I don't know, the guy seemed like he was getting by just fine without all of that business. On that note, even if Goku HAD to start subscribing to this... I feel like Granolah SHOULDN'T have been the foe to start this with.

The Granolah arc is my least favorite arc in all of Dragon Ball for a reason.

Seriously, the more I think about it? The more it irritates me that it feels like part of the Granolah arc's existence was meant to reinforce and justify some of Goku and Vegeta's most irritating qualities AND to integrate the Saiyans into Goku's character even MORE than ever before.

Probably a hot take, but I'd like to hope that this stuff will be ignored going forward.

It won't, but... let a guy dream, huh?

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, I think Dragon Ball—likely via the influence of Toriyama—has this nasty habit of trying too hard to be 'edgy' in how it depicts characters—Goku and Vegeta, specifically—as being not like normal people. Like, it's one thing to make your characters inhuman, but because the other characters and the story itself don't give consequence to how Goku and Vegeta act, it's ultimately this very unfulfilling and otherwise boring way of writing the characters.

[super michael]

In Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood Edward paid a huge price to gain someone back. In Hunter X Hunter Gon paid a huge price to gain huge powers to defeat the enemy. In My Hero Academia Deku paid a huge price to beat the enemy.

I am being vague on purpose to not mention anything spoiler about those anime.


Vegeta he did so many bad things such as these:

- Off Screen evil deeds before going to planet earth
- Trying to blow up the earth
- Killing innocent Namekian
- Killing the truck driver when fighting C18
- Letting Cell go and preventing Trunks from killing Cell
- Getting possessed by Babidi on purpose and then killing innocent people, just to get Goku to fight him. Vegeta was willing to kill more, if Goku refused
- Destroying and refusing the fusion dance inside Super Buu body
- Destroying the Potara again


The only thing bad Goku did was destroy the Potara again Kid Buu.

[DanielSSJ]

Seriously, the more I think about it? The more it irritates me that it feels like part of the Granolah arc's existence was meant to reinforce and justify some of Goku and Vegeta's most irritating qualities AND to integrate the Saiyans into Goku's character even MORE than ever before.

Probably a hot take, but I'd like to hope that this stuff will be ignored going forward.

It won't, but... let a guy dream, huh?

The most irritating thing about it to me is how the message of the arc is in direct conflict with the resolution to Vegeta's character arc in the original run. The stuff about fighting with Saiyan Pride, and how "A Saiyan fights to win. That is all"? That's the stuff Vegeta had to unlearn in the Boo arc for the series to end. Goku was better than him because he doesn't fight to win, he fights to better himself. Like, I know Dragon Ball Super's already pretty bad at sticking to Vegeta's Boo arc development, but this takes it to a new level.