Unpopular DB opinions

[Kaboom]

That's just what happens when you try to set a long-form midquel at a point 99% of the way through the original story where all the major characters' personal growth arcs had already finished.

[JulieYBM]

Seriously, the more I think about it? The more it irritates me that it feels like part of the Granolah arc's existence was meant to reinforce and justify some of Goku and Vegeta's most irritating qualities AND to integrate the Saiyans into Goku's character even MORE than ever before.

Probably a hot take, but I'd like to hope that this stuff will be ignored going forward.

It won't, but... let a guy dream, huh?

The most irritating thing about it to me is how the message of the arc is in direct conflict with the resolution to Vegeta's character arc in the original run. The stuff about fighting with Saiyan Pride, and how "A Saiyan fights to win. That is all"? That's the stuff Vegeta had to unlearn in the Boo arc for the series to end. Goku was better than him because he doesn't fight to win, he fights to better himself. Like, I know Dragon Ball Super's already pretty bad at sticking to Vegeta's Boo arc development, but this takes it to a new level.

Instead of really taking that initial redemptive element from the early Moro arc and expanding on it, like they should, they're doubling down on the cultural memory of Vegeta as this sort of 'evil' figure and it's really just the most boring and repetitive thing to do. The story should be making characters less recognizable as the story goes on.

[PhantomSaiyan]

That's just what happens when you try to set a long-form midquel at a point 99% of the way through the original story where all the major characters' personal growth arcs had already finished.

Yup, this sums up basically 90% of what's wrong with Super and modern Dragon Ball as a whole, along with the "fan service first storytelling later" approach they've taken for most of its arcs

[Scsigs]

So, I don't think Super was wrong to give Goku & Vegeta character flaws. The problem is that they're character flaws that don't make a ton of sense to be explored in a series set a few years after the Buu Arc. Super legitimately regressed Vegeta's character with him caring too much about besting Goku rather than just training for himself & finding his own power to continue off of his speech from the Buu Arc. To keep in step with Goku & develop his powers in his own way, which I don't think they actually started with until Toyotaro was able to do so after the Tournament of Power. If Super: Beerus can mitigate this particular problem to any degree by at least cutting down on the scenes of Vegeta's character being regressed so badly like there are in OG Super.
Goku's character flaw, I don't quite understand. With him being shown as a fighting savant, him being established as being too relaxed in a fight...doesn't make any sense. The closest thing I can remember being to that being him & Vegeta underestimating Kid Buu for no reason because they should've been able to sense his ki & be able to tell how powerful he was, plus they'd already dealt with 2 different versions of Buu who were really powerful, so they should've been more apprehensive to him than not. But, when they were fighting him, neither of them were shown to have a certain flaw, they were just outclasses by his power level being higher than theirs. Maybe if this were a result of the peace time stuff that keeps affecting Gohan, I could see it, but they didn't do that & even show Goku continuing to train in this time, so that can't be what it is.

As for the cutting down of Super, I personally think that Dragon Ball works its best when the stories only last as long as they need to, have good pacing, & the animation is able to convey what it needs to. Like, Kai is my preferred version of Z because it cuts out most of the fluff from Z & the pacing is much improved. I know it's a product of its time, but a lot of the time when I try to watch the original Z episodes, the pacing is often very slow (a product of the time as well as them needing to deliberately pace the episodes slower because they were adapting the manga & they didn't wanna catch up to it), the filler added to events from the manga (not most of the stuff that takes place in between important stuff) is often more detrimental to the pace, tone, & storytelling of the arcs than adding anything to them. The worst of the worst filler for me has to be during the Buu Arc where, during more serious moments, they added scenes of Goku & Vegeta fighting their way through Buu's body with them working their way to his brain, then also a scene of Buu eating pastries from a bakery, then gets indigestion because of Goku & Vegeta fighting something in his stomach, so he magics up a port-a-potty & takes a shit. When they can seamlessly edit out that (literal) shit to more accurately match the pace of the manga & you miss absolutely NOTHING in terms of storytelling, I think that speaks volumes to what this filler actually means int he grand scheme of things. Then, my favorite DB movies are Battle of Gods, Super: Broly, & Super: Super Hero, which are as good as they are partly because they're written & paced as movies. Battle of Gods didn't have a good anime arc adaptation specifically because of how bad the padding they added was & I think you could pace Broly (especially if they add back in the over an hour's worth of stuff Toriyama cut from the movie to make it shorter) & Super Hero well as TV arcs, but not for 12 episodes. I don't think the cutdown is a detriment, especially when people complain about padding. When a streaming service has no set number of episodes to fill, I think this can only benefit these arcs, but we'll see when it gets to after Res F.

[super michael]

So, I don't think Super was wrong to give Goku & Vegeta character flaws. The problem is that they're character flaws that don't make a ton of sense to be explored in a series set a few years after the Buu Arc. Super legitimately regressed Vegeta's character with him caring too much about besting Goku rather than just training for himself & finding his own power to continue off of his speech from the Buu Arc. To keep in step with Goku & develop his powers in his own way, which I don't think they actually started with until Toyotaro was able to do so after the Tournament of Power. If Super: Beerus can mitigate this particular problem to any degree by at least cutting down on the scenes of Vegeta's character being regressed so badly like there are in OG Super.
Goku's character flaw, I don't quite understand. With him being shown as a fighting savant, him being established as being too relaxed in a fight...doesn't make any sense. The closest thing I can remember being to that being him & Vegeta underestimating Kid Buu for no reason because they should've been able to sense his ki & be able to tell how powerful he was, plus they'd already dealt with 2 different versions of Buu who were really powerful, so they should've been more apprehensive to him than not. But, when they were fighting him, neither of them were shown to have a certain flaw, they were just outclasses by his power level being higher than theirs. Maybe if this were a result of the peace time stuff that keeps affecting Gohan, I could see it, but they didn't do that & even show Goku continuing to train in this time, so that can't be what it is.

As for the cutting down of Super, I personally think that Dragon Ball works its best when the stories only last as long as they need to, have good pacing, & the animation is able to convey what it needs to. Like, Kai is my preferred version of Z because it cuts out most of the fluff from Z & the pacing is much improved. I know it's a product of its time, but a lot of the time when I try to watch the original Z episodes, the pacing is often very slow (a product of the time as well as them needing to deliberately pace the episodes slower because they were adapting the manga & they didn't wanna catch up to it), the filler added to events from the manga (not most of the stuff that takes place in between important stuff) is often more detrimental to the pace, tone, & storytelling of the arcs than adding anything to them. The worst of the worst filler for me has to be during the Buu Arc where, during more serious moments, they added scenes of Goku & Vegeta fighting their way through Buu's body with them working their way to his brain, then also a scene of Buu eating pastries from a bakery, then gets indigestion because of Goku & Vegeta fighting something in his stomach, so he magics up a port-a-potty & takes a shit. When they can seamlessly edit out that (literal) shit to more accurately match the pace of the manga & you miss absolutely NOTHING in terms of storytelling, I think that speaks volumes to what this filler actually means int he grand scheme of things. Then, my favorite DB movies are Battle of Gods, Super: Broly, & Super: Super Hero, which are as good as they are partly because they're written & paced as movies. Battle of Gods didn't have a good anime arc adaptation specifically because of how bad the padding they added was & I think you could pace Broly (especially if they add back in the over an hour's worth of stuff Toriyama cut from the movie to make it shorter) & Super Hero well as TV arcs, but not for 12 episodes. I don't think the cutdown is a detriment, especially when people complain about padding. When a streaming service has no set number of episodes to fill, I think this can only benefit these arcs, but we'll see when it gets to after Res F.

In DBS for some reason Goku cares too much when it comes to Vegeta, he gets upset at Vegeta for training alone without telling him. When did Goku expect Vegeta to tell him everything that he does, he cares too much about Vegeta surpassing him. So it isn't just Vegeta that cares too much about surpassing Goku in DBS.

Giving Vegeta and Goku flaw isn't a bad thing, but it should be new flaws, not something that they were good in the past or overcame that weakness. Goku learned meditation from Mr Popo, he should be an expert at it, not become a amateur that doesn't know meditation and using his power efficiently.
When did Goku start accusing Vegeta of being lazy and a fibber.

As for SSJ3 Goku vs Kid Buu, keep in mind that was the first time Goku used SSJ3 in a living body. Goku lost to Kid Buu not just because he was powerful, but he was unware of SSJ3 huge drain in a living body compared to a dead body.

[L3anD3RStar]

Snip

I think it’s less that Goku doesn’t let the enemy’s trash talk or intimidation get to him, and more that whatever emotional reaction Goku has to it is always the CORRECT emotion. Super Saiyan was triggered by rage the first time, but then Goku acclimatized to it so he could trigger it at will. It got so effortless for him that he trained himself up to not even notice the difference.

That’s why I don’t think it’s correct that “True Ultra Instinct” is giving him his emotions back. I think he’s just doing the same thing he’s done with all his new transformations - internalize their triggers so he can enter and exit them at will. It all just gets subsumed into the big melting pot inside of him as he pursues whatever the next new thing will be.

… I can’t remember where I read it, but I swear I remember reading an interview with Toyotaro where he said his biggest problem with Goku post-ToP is he’s “too perfect, so in order to continue to progress him, I need to imply there is a perfection beyond perfection.” Like… Bro. That actually explains a lot about my frustrations with Goku’s characterization, if this is actually the case.

Toriyama’s Goku WASN’T perfect. He always meant well, but he made mistakes, mishandled situations, hurt his friends and loved ones, wasn’t always right. Hell, he spends almost the entire Buu arc making choices that make things worse, until the situation spirals out of control and he scrambles for more and more desperate ways to somehow undo the catastrophe he had a hand in creating. These choices kept the story going. They had consequences.

But Toyotaro seems to be of the opinion that Goku CAN’T make mistakes, or at least, not serious ones. Sure he can forget how many kids he has or what the name of his granddaughter is, but nobody is going to hold that against him. He can’t say or do something that hurts anyone innocent, and be WRONG. In fact, the way Toyotaro indicates a guy is a “good guy” is they express admiration for Goku. He’s the barometer for morality in the world. If someone does everything right and good, but doesn’t like Goku, like Jiren, then don’t trust that person. But if Goku likes someone who murders billions, like Zeno, then that guy must be Good.

Really, if the story just let Goku be WRONG sometimes, and have to fix mistakes he made, then we would all be better off. I’ve always been of the opinion that making the ToP ENTIRELY Goku’s fault would have made it a richer, better story. None of that nonsense that the universes were going to be destroyed anyway and Goku gave everyone a chance, no, everything was fine and then Goku said, “I’m bored, lets have a tournament” and the Zenos went “yay, tournament, oh hey, we know how to make this really interesting! Loser universes get eliminated! this is a great idea, thanks Goku!”

And then Goku has to go through arguably the best most fun tournament of his entire life, with the added pressure that none of these deaths would be happening if he just hadn’t opened his big mouth. He has to prove he’s a Good Guy by somehow fixing the mess he made. He doesn’t want all of these innocent people to die. This isn’t what he intended. But how does he prove it? How does he exonerate himself in the eyes of combatants dragged into this against their will, who now have to fight not just for their own lives but for every uninvolved innocent life in their universe?

If there’s anyone who could actually come through that smelling like roses, it would be Goku. But first he would have to do the bad thing that he has to atone for. Toyotaro (or editorial’s) insistence on never letting Goku ever be in the wrong about anything ever is holding everything back.

[WittyUsername]

I like the concept of Ultra Instinct, but I’ve always had mixed feelings about it being treated as a transformation. Ultra Ego is something I’m kinda meh on. I hated it when it was introduced, but in hindsight, I do get the mentality behind it and I’ll take it over Super Saiyan Blue Evolved or whatever it’s called.

And yeah, I agree that Super has a bad habit of regressing Goku and Vegeta’s characters for the sake of adhering to the status quo. That’s the big problem with modern Dragon Ball as a whole. It’s completely stagnant. Things are barely allowed to progress. Everything has to be safe and marketable. For all its faults, GT didn’t have that problem.

[dragonballhero]

Snip

I think it’s less that Goku doesn’t let the enemy’s trash talk or intimidation get to him, and more that whatever emotional reaction Goku has to it is always the CORRECT emotion. Super Saiyan was triggered by rage the first time, but then Goku acclimatized to it so he could trigger it at will. It got so effortless for him that he trained himself up to not even notice the difference.

That’s why I don’t think it’s correct that “True Ultra Instinct” is giving him his emotions back. I think he’s just doing the same thing he’s done with all his new transformations - internalize their triggers so he can enter and exit them at will. It all just gets subsumed into the big melting pot inside of him as he pursues whatever the next new thing will be.

… I can’t remember where I read it, but I swear I remember reading an interview with Toyotaro where he said his biggest problem with Goku post-ToP is he’s “too perfect, so in order to continue to progress him, I need to imply there is a perfection beyond perfection.” Like… Bro. That actually explains a lot about my frustrations with Goku’s characterization, if this is actually the case.

Toriyama’s Goku WASN’T perfect. He always meant well, but he made mistakes, mishandled situations, hurt his friends and loved ones, wasn’t always right. Hell, he spends almost the entire Buu arc making choices that make things worse, until the situation spirals out of control and he scrambles for more and more desperate ways to somehow undo the catastrophe he had a hand in creating. These choices kept the story going. They had consequences.

But Toyotaro seems to be of the opinion that Goku CAN’T make mistakes, or at least, not serious ones. Sure he can forget how many kids he has or what the name of his granddaughter is, but nobody is going to hold that against him. He can’t say or do something that hurts anyone innocent, and be WRONG. In fact, the way Toyotaro indicates a guy is a “good guy” is they express admiration for Goku. He’s the barometer for morality in the world. If someone does everything right and good, but doesn’t like Goku, like Jiren, then don’t trust that person. But if Goku likes someone who murders billions, like Zeno, then that guy must be Good.

Really, if the story just let Goku be WRONG sometimes, and have to fix mistakes he made, then we would all be better off. I’ve always been of the opinion that making the ToP ENTIRELY Goku’s fault would have made it a richer, better story. None of that nonsense that the universes were going to be destroyed anyway and Goku gave everyone a chance, no, everything was fine and then Goku said, “I’m bored, lets have a tournament” and the Zenos went “yay, tournament, oh hey, we know how to make this really interesting! Loser universes get eliminated! this is a great idea, thanks Goku!”

And then Goku has to go through arguably the best most fun tournament of his entire life, with the added pressure that none of these deaths would be happening if he just hadn’t opened his big mouth. He has to prove he’s a Good Guy by somehow fixing the mess he made. He doesn’t want all of these innocent people to die. This isn’t what he intended. But how does he prove it? How does he exonerate himself in the eyes of combatants dragged into this against their will, who now have to fight not just for their own lives but for every uninvolved innocent life in their universe?

If there’s anyone who could actually come through that smelling like roses, it would be Goku. But first he would have to do the bad thing that he has to atone for. Toyotaro (or editorial’s) insistence on never letting Goku ever be in the wrong about anything ever is holding everything back.

*Insert The Office Michael Scoot THANK YOU!!! GIF here*

No, SERIOUSLY. It's why I personally don't care all too much for the T.O.P. and everything it brought about. I've never thought of Goku as 'traditionally heroic' or whatever... but you're seriously telling me he can just casually bring about the apocalypse (technically **7 or 8** apocalypses) and that's all just swept under the rug with a simple 'Naughty Goku! You shouldn't have brought about the end of multiple universes!'???

Like, the universe is just... going to bend to Goku's whims and give him a pass on THIS??? If they were trying to emulate Toriyama's sense of humor of taking the piss out of really important stuff and all, this was SO *NOT* it.

Side note, the only thing (and I do mean, the ONLY thing) that would have kept me invested in that arc was if Future Trunks participated in a gambit to restore his reality. Otherwise, why should I care about ANY of this??? Remember that this ALL (somehow) occurs in the decade-long time-skip between Majin Buu and the end of the OG manga... which, as some of you have said on this very page, was just NOT the move Super should have taken.

Say what you will about GT (Heaven knows I've got quite a bit to say myself), but at least it had the sense to happen AFTER the OG manga.

[kiarasuraru]

I never particularly cared about Vegeta's a bloo bloo I was evil once I feel so bad about it I must redeem myself I'm going to hell anyway even if I do it stuff on Moro and Granola.
It feels kind of, fanon-y, for lack of a better descriptor. Like how you have all these people going about how Vegeta is super traumatized and has deep seated issues about being under Freeza for decades and that he and only he should beat Freeza once and for all because "he deserves it" and what-not. Like, it's not like I dislike the idea of Vegeta being the one killing Freeza, F will forever be a major robbery, but it's the how and whys people put behind it that I don't agree with.
It always felt kind of forced, like a mixture of trying to whitewash while artificially adding "depth" to the man. Part of the usual Saiyan whitewashing the franchise has been going at for years now and also part of the effort to try to make Goku look worse and Vegeta better morality-wise, specially so in regards family matters. That it happened during the two Toyo led arcs just adds to the "fanfiction-y" feeling to me.
Got reminded of that one "Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta" thread here while writing this.

[ABED]

So, I don't think Super was wrong to give Goku & Vegeta character flaws. The problem is that they're character flaws that don't make a ton of sense to be explored in a series set a few years after the Buu Arc. Super legitimately regressed Vegeta's character with him caring too much about besting Goku rather than just training for himself & finding his own power to continue off of his speech from the Buu Arc. To keep in step with Goku & develop his powers in his own way, which I don't think they actually started with until Toyotaro was able to do so after the Tournament of Power. If Super: Beerus can mitigate this particular problem to any degree by at least cutting down on the scenes of Vegeta's character being regressed so badly like there are in OG Super.
Goku's character flaw, I don't quite understand. With him being shown as a fighting savant, him being established as being too relaxed in a fight...doesn't make any sense. The closest thing I can remember being to that being him & Vegeta underestimating Kid Buu for no reason because they should've been able to sense his ki & be able to tell how powerful he was, plus they'd already dealt with 2 different versions of Buu who were really powerful, so they should've been more apprehensive to him than not. But, when they were fighting him, neither of them were shown to have a certain flaw, they were just outclasses by his power level being higher than theirs. Maybe if this were a result of the peace time stuff that keeps affecting Gohan, I could see it, but they didn't do that & even show Goku continuing to train in this time, so that can't be what it is.

As for the cutting down of Super, I personally think that Dragon Ball works its best when the stories only last as long as they need to, have good pacing, & the animation is able to convey what it needs to. Like, Kai is my preferred version of Z because it cuts out most of the fluff from Z & the pacing is much improved. I know it's a product of its time, but a lot of the time when I try to watch the original Z episodes, the pacing is often very slow (a product of the time as well as them needing to deliberately pace the episodes slower because they were adapting the manga & they didn't wanna catch up to it), the filler added to events from the manga (not most of the stuff that takes place in between important stuff) is often more detrimental to the pace, tone, & storytelling of the arcs than adding anything to them. The worst of the worst filler for me has to be during the Buu Arc where, during more serious moments, they added scenes of Goku & Vegeta fighting their way through Buu's body with them working their way to his brain, then also a scene of Buu eating pastries from a bakery, then gets indigestion because of Goku & Vegeta fighting something in his stomach, so he magics up a port-a-potty & takes a shit. When they can seamlessly edit out that (literal) shit to more accurately match the pace of the manga & you miss absolutely NOTHING in terms of storytelling, I think that speaks volumes to what this filler actually means int he grand scheme of things. Then, my favorite DB movies are Battle of Gods, Super: Broly, & Super: Super Hero, which are as good as they are partly because they're written & paced as movies. Battle of Gods didn't have a good anime arc adaptation specifically because of how bad the padding they added was & I think you could pace Broly (especially if they add back in the over an hour's worth of stuff Toriyama cut from the movie to make it shorter) & Super Hero well as TV arcs, but not for 12 episodes. I don't think the cutdown is a detriment, especially when people complain about padding. When a streaming service has no set number of episodes to fill, I think this can only benefit these arcs, but we'll see when it gets to after Res F.

This is a misunderstanding of Vegeta's epiphany. It wasn't leaving behind his rivalry with Goku. It was understanding what makes Goku special - his desire to fight just to better and test himself. Goku has always used others as measuring sticks to give himself a goal. If anything, Vegeta has had the best progress because he's further along in that direction, including dipping his toes into mentorship.

As for your point about stories only lasting as long as they need to - that's so vague.

As to the point others are making about the tournament of power, it wasn't Goku's idea. It was Zeno's.

[L3anD3RStar]

As to the point others are making about the tournament of power, it wasn't Goku's idea. It was Zeno's.

No, it was Goku’s.

If you go by the manga continuity, Zeno was just gonna delete 2/3rds of creation because they were bored. Goku suggested a tournament around that time and Zeno thought that sounded fun.

In both anime and manga it’s Grand Priest who actually tells us the losers will all be executed along with their universes. But whether that was Grand Priest or Zeno’s idea isn’t specified. Probably because if we knew, then we’d know who really thought murdering trillions of innocents just to make a sporting event more interesting was a good and acceptable idea. Either answer would have implications that should probably be acted on by anything that calls itself a “hero.” Not knowing means we can play dumb and pretend everything is fine and nobody is specifically to blame for “hunger games but your whole district dies if you lose”

[L3anD3RStar]

I never particularly cared about Vegeta's a bloo bloo I was evil once I feel so bad about it I must redeem myself I'm going to hell anyway even if I do it stuff on Moro and Granola.
It feels kind of, fanon-y, for lack of a better descriptor.

Well.. yah. Because it is. Toyotaro was literally a fanmanga creator - one who’s Original Character Do Not Steal was a half-kai bastard son of Goku who was conceived by stealing his fluids while he was incapacitated.

Toyotaro is driven by fanboy impulses. He thinks Bardock is super cool and wants to show it, and also wants to exonerate Vegeta and defuse the Beerus bomb, because he loves all of these characters and feels bad whenever they feel bad about anything, He doesn’t know what to do with Goku because he sees him as perfect, he’s always right, he always does the right thing, nothing bad that ever results from his actions is ever really his fault and here’s a whole lineup of god characters ready to insist upon it.

Like, I’ve never failed to notice that every single page of fighting has a god in one pannel explaining exactly what’s going on. Or rather, what the god thinks is going on. Or is willing to say is going on.

I think that’s why I no longer trust exposition from the mouths of gods in Dragon Ball. The gods can be wrong. They have been wrong. They have done bad things and hurt people who didn’t deserve it just to accomplish their own ends. They really shouldn’t be taken at their word on anything. Trust your eyes, not their words.

Apologies for the double post, I just got back from a trip.

[Grimlock]

He thinks Bardock is super cool and wants to show it

And what exactly is the problem with that?

[super michael]

I never particularly cared about Vegeta's a bloo bloo I was evil once I feel so bad about it I must redeem myself I'm going to hell anyway even if I do it stuff on Moro and Granola.
It feels kind of, fanon-y, for lack of a better descriptor.

Well.. yah. Because it is. Toyotaro was literally a fanmanga creator - one who’s Original Character Do Not Steal was a half-kai bastard son of Goku who was conceived by stealing his fluids while he was incapacitated.

Toyotaro is driven by fanboy impulses. He thinks Bardock is super cool and wants to show it, and also wants to exonerate Vegeta and defuse the Beerus bomb, because he loves all of these characters and feels bad whenever they feel bad about anything, He doesn’t know what to do with Goku because he sees him as perfect, he’s always right, he always does the right thing, nothing bad that ever results from his actions is ever really his fault and here’s a whole lineup of god characters ready to insist upon it.

Like, I’ve never failed to notice that every single page of fighting has a god in one pannel explaining exactly what’s going on. Or rather, what the god thinks is going on. Or is willing to say is going on.

I think that’s why I no longer trust exposition from the mouths of gods in Dragon Ball. The gods can be wrong. They have been wrong. They have done bad things and hurt people who didn’t deserve it just to accomplish their own ends. They really shouldn’t be taken at their word on anything. Trust your eyes, not their words.

Apologies for the double post, I just got back from a trip.

Toyotaro might have his flaws in writing his manga, however he didn't turn Goku into a bossy brainless idiot.

Goku expects Vegeta to tell him every single time when he trains with Whis, like Vegeta is his baby sitter. He cares so much about not letting Vegeta surpass him, that he doesn't want Vegeta training without Goku.
Then DBS Super Hero he was bossy and accusing of being lazy and a fibber. He acted like he never done meditation or used power efficiency.

Don't get me started with the Monaka episode and ToP Goku getting upset at C17, while he should be proud for using his brains.

Goku Black Saga Goku said many stupid things and the worst is he completely ignored Master Roshi to wait until he gets the talisman.


Toei really loved making Goten and Trunks appear excited to want to train and fight, only for them not to be allowed. Why even show them wanting to train and fight.
Chi Chi was super annoying.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Chi Chi was super annoying.

I agree with your complaints except this one, she was in like 5% of Super, and I'm being generous, her presence was pretty negligible and insignificant to be annoying for me.

Like yeah she probably said some stupid shit since she was written by Toei, but it was usually resolved so quickly that she was pretty much irrelevant, if the plot doesn't care for her then why should I, know what I mean?

[L3anD3RStar]

He thinks Bardock is super cool and wants to show it

And what exactly is the problem with that?

Nothing, except Toyotaro ALSO thinks Beerus is cool and right, and that means everything he’s ever done must also be cool and right, including having all of the Saiyans, particularly Bardock, murdered in cold blood. So Bardock can be cool, but the Saiyans can’t be, they must all be irredeemable monsters who deserved execution, except NO, Vegeta is WRONG to think that, truth is they died because Beerus felt like it, and that’s the most based and correct way to approach this situation! Because it means the Saiyans being killed was the right thing to do, even though they were kinda cool and Bardock was really cool, and Vegeta shouldn’t feel bad about the bad things his race did in the past, and Beerus is a wise teacher who can guide our boys into being stronger and punching harder so he’s not ever wrong.

It all makes sense if you don’t ever try to think about it.

Toyotaro’s reluctance to ever take a side that isn’t “everything Toriyama has ever created is The Coolest” is why this mess exists. Because Toyotaro won’t ever portray Beerus as WRONG just as firmly as he wouldn’t let Bardock be a bastard. Trying to exonerate them both made a huge mess that I’m not surprised they haven’t even tried to resolve.

[L3anD3RStar]

Toyotaro might have his flaws in writing his manga, however he didn't turn Goku into a bossy brainless idiot.

No, it’s worse. He thinks Goku is literally perfect. He thinks he’s always right, always does the correct thing, and saves the day without even really meaning to because he’s just so flawless, deep down to his core. It’s why a “Good Guy” who’s never hurt anyone but doesn’t like Goku, like Jiren, can’t be trusted, but a “Bad Guy” who slaughters trillions, like Zeno, has to be ok, because Goku likes him.

Toriyama’s most endearing trait was he never took himself or his own creations too seriously. He clearly cared a lot about his characters, but he didn’t idealize them. Everyone, including the gods and Goku himself, could make mistakes, and those mistakes could drive the plot forward.

Toyotaro is of the belief that if Goku says or does it, then it’s not a mistake, it can’t be, it must be correct in ways we just don’t understand yet.

Given a choice between the two, I’ll take dumbass Goku over idiot savant Goku. I mean, dumbass Goku can’t really pay for his mistakes anymore either, but at least he can be WRONG sometimes… never in any substantial way, it always has to be limited to filler, it can’t alter the plot or anything, but it’s better then nothing.

I liked Toriyama’s Goku the most - someone who meant well, but who’s good intensions didn’t mean he didn’t make mistakes. He loved his friends and family, and also loved fighting, but who’s fight-loving perspective had a tendency to blind him to the consequences of his actions. He can’t really imagine anyone finding anything more meaningful and fun than a Good Fight, and that has lead him to hurt people who trusted him more than once.

[ABED]

As to the point others are making about the tournament of power, it wasn't Goku's idea. It was Zeno's.

No, it was Goku’s.

If you go by the manga continuity, Zeno was just gonna delete 2/3rds of creation because they were bored. Goku suggested a tournament around that time and Zeno thought that sounded fun.

In both anime and manga it’s Grand Priest who actually tells us the losers will all be executed along with their universes. But whether that was Grand Priest or Zeno’s idea isn’t specified. Probably because if we knew, then we’d know who really thought murdering trillions of innocents just to make a sporting event more interesting was a good and acceptable idea. Either answer would have implications that should probably be acted on by anything that calls itself a “hero.” Not knowing means we can play dumb and pretend everything is fine and nobody is specifically to blame for “hunger games but your whole district dies if you lose”

I didn't read the manga. In the anime, the tournament was Zen-o's idea. Goku accelerated when it happened but it was Zen-o's idea after the U6 vs. U7 arc. People blame Goku because Zen-o forgot and Goku reminded him.

[super michael]

As to the point others are making about the tournament of power, it wasn't Goku's idea. It was Zeno's.

No, it was Goku’s.

If you go by the manga continuity, Zeno was just gonna delete 2/3rds of creation because they were bored. Goku suggested a tournament around that time and Zeno thought that sounded fun.

In both anime and manga it’s Grand Priest who actually tells us the losers will all be executed along with their universes. But whether that was Grand Priest or Zeno’s idea isn’t specified. Probably because if we knew, then we’d know who really thought murdering trillions of innocents just to make a sporting event more interesting was a good and acceptable idea. Either answer would have implications that should probably be acted on by anything that calls itself a “hero.” Not knowing means we can play dumb and pretend everything is fine and nobody is specifically to blame for “hunger games but your whole district dies if you lose”

I didn't read the manga. In the anime, the tournament was Zen-o's idea. Goku accelerated when it happened but it was Zen-o's idea after the U6 vs. U7 arc.

In the anime and manga it seems Present Zeno forgot forgot about the tournament, that is why Zeno never mentioned anything about the tournament until Goku went to him. Present Zeno was impressed with U6 vs U7 tournament.
Future Zeno didn't know about the tournament.

[ABED]

No, it was Goku’s.

If you go by the manga continuity, Zeno was just gonna delete 2/3rds of creation because they were bored. Goku suggested a tournament around that time and Zeno thought that sounded fun.

In both anime and manga it’s Grand Priest who actually tells us the losers will all be executed along with their universes. But whether that was Grand Priest or Zeno’s idea isn’t specified. Probably because if we knew, then we’d know who really thought murdering trillions of innocents just to make a sporting event more interesting was a good and acceptable idea. Either answer would have implications that should probably be acted on by anything that calls itself a “hero.” Not knowing means we can play dumb and pretend everything is fine and nobody is specifically to blame for “hunger games but your whole district dies if you lose”

I didn't read the manga. In the anime, the tournament was Zen-o's idea. Goku accelerated when it happened but it was Zen-o's idea after the U6 vs. U7 arc.

In the anime and manga it seems Present Zeno forgot forgot about the tournament, that is why Zeno never mentioned anything about the tournament until Goku went to him. Present Zeno was impressed with U6 vs U7 tournament.
Future Zeno didn't know about the tournament.

I'm aware. It was still his idea. It's one thing to blame Goku for reminding him about it, it's another to lay blame entirely at Goku's feet when the tournament wasn't his idea. I get the idea that Zen-o is presented as a child despite being essentially omnipotent, but I wish they hadn't added that part about him forgetting.