Unpopular DB opinions

[L3anD3RStar]

Here is the quote:

I think you are taking those quotes too literally. I see this across lots of fantasy and sci-fi media - fans assume a character saying something is speaking For The Plot, rather then being a person in that plot who is saying things. Not to say all those teachers didn’t mean it, but I think it was more about Goku graduating from whatever his current training arc was, then about a teacher with nothing else to teach. Goku’s exhausted the lesson plan but he still turns to Kami, Popo, and Roshi for information and advice, even long after he’s a grown man who has vastly surpassed them in power.

I think it’s redundant to treat them as disposable just because they told the main character he’d graduated and would have to keep learning elsewhere, if he wanted to. Which he does. He finds other masters, and learns new techniques, because that’s what he loves.

Tenshinhan only trains with Chiaotzu, who is a weakling.

Cuz Tien doesn’t train to “get stronger.” Tien trains to improve himself. He’s not competitive like Goku is. He doesn’t feel a fire in his heart when there’s a strong guy around to be defeated. In his mind, he proved himself during the Tenkaiichi, and although he will fight to protect his friends, taking down the Big Bad isn’t something he’s even going to attempt, unless he absolutely has to. Like he had to with Cell. And that was because everyone stronger than he was spent that whole arc fumbling around and making everything worse.

Future Gohan trained, but he never learned how to train from Goku. He never trained in the ROSAT, that is why he was inferior compared to Present Gohan who was young. Training longer doesn't mean anything if they don't train hard and efficient.

It also depends on what you want to get from your training, and what your attitude towards it is. Future Gohan, I think, never really believed he could someday kill the androids and save the world. I think he accepted his own death long ago. He was just hoping to last long enough for Trunks to grow up. He’s a Gohan who never got over his confidence issues, and had even fewer positive memories of training then his current self has. He spent over a decade barely surviving the androids hunting him for sport,

Kuririn quit training and fighting after Gohan defeated Cell, that is why Kuririn stopped shaving his head. Decades of training and experience means nothing when he doesn't train hard. He is also one of the fighters that refused to train with Goku and Piccolo.

There’s training and then there’s training. I don’t think Krillin has it in him to give martial arts up completely. He was still strong, even as a police officer. Hell, even Yamcha is still strong for a human.

I’d like to see more stories about the humans dealing with things at their own level rather then yet another story about another big bad who is even stronger and scarier then the last one. More different kinds of stories please.

Goten and Trunks were training when there was peace, they trained with the adults and together.

They are also children, who think and act like children. Goku somehow never anticipates that, which is why both they and Gohan fumble his big attempts to make THEM the new gardians of the earth. Goku is basically a big kid himself and he means well, but the idea that kids might be immature and not take life or death situations seriously enough always takes him by surprise.

But hey, I’m sure he’s learned his lesson and Uub will be fine! Right?? What are the odds Goku screws up training a child to succeed him for the THIRD time??

Climbing Karin tower is training, then chasing Karin is another form of training. That water was just regular water, nothing magical there. It was later on with Piccolo Daimao that Karin gave Goku the magical water with the potential to kill the user.

Toriyama didn’t like to repeat himself, so when he reused an idea, like the water, he tried to do it differently.

[DanielSSJ]

Chapter: 54, P10.2-3
Context: after Kuririn says he and Goku will start training again once he returns to Kame House
Kame-sennin: “No no. I’ve already taught you practically all I have to teach. From now on, walk your own path. You should undergo your own training.”

To be fair, in this particular instance, Muten Roshi is saying this at least in part because he wants Goku and Kuririn out of his house. Kuririn even asks to stay anyways fit the next three years.

I will say the original manga was pretty good at keeping the Earthlings from falling too far behind Goku by having them go through through the same training most recently completed, so Dragon Ball Super dusting them off in the era of Super Saiyan Gods when they were initially shelved because they couldn't even keep up the regular Super Saiyans feels a bit slipshod in comparison.

Cuz Tien doesn’t train to “get stronger.” Tien trains to improve himself. He’s not competitive like Goku is. He doesn’t feel a fire in his heart when there’s a strong guy around to be defeated. In his mind, he proved himself during the Tenkaiichi, and although he will fight to protect his friends, taking down the Big Bad isn’t something he’s even going to attempt, unless he absolutely has to. Like he had to with Cell. And that was because everyone stronger than he was spent that whole arc fumbling around and making everything worse.

If that were the case, Tenshinhan wouldn't have thrown his voice behind Goku and Vegeta in wanting to have the chance to test himself against the Androids, even if he died trying. Tenshinhan was the proto Piccolo/Vegeta, his chief characteristic after his introduction was his martial artist's pride and the gall he felt at being left in the dust by Goku. He only lost that after the Cell arc's three year time skip when Toriyama decided he didn't want to play with the Earthling characters anymore.

[L3anD3RStar]

[If that were the case, Tenshinhan wouldn't have thrown his voice behind Goku and Vegeta in wanting to have the chance to test himself against the Androids, even if he died trying. Tenshinhan was the proto Piccolo/Vegeta, his chief characteristic after his introduction was his martial artist's pride and the gall he felt at being left in the dust by Goku. He only lost that after the Cell arc's three year time skip when Toriyama decided he didn't want to play with the Earthling characters anymore.

Tien might not LIKE being left behind but it hasn’t stopped him from continuing to train and improve himself. At a certain point he had to decide he was doing that for himself, and not for the sake of the next fight.

But that reminds me of another problem I have with Super - it doesn’t let the characters just be DUMB anymore. Toriyama didn’t really try to lampshade that everyone had just been warned about the killer androids, and instead of taking care of the problem they were all excited to fight the killer robots, putting themselves and the entire world in danger because punch punch kick kick yay. He doesn’t try to excuse that. They are being dumb and they are doing a dumb thing, and it’s just the first of many mistakes they make during the Android, Cell, and Buu sagas that make everything worse,. Watching them scramble to fix messes they could’ve easily avoided but chose not to is a very Toriyama way to drive the story forward. You just know Toriyama was shaking his head at these idiots even as he gleefully found ways for their plans to blow up in their faces.

If a similar situation happened in Super, Whis or Kami or some other Voice of God character would make sure the audience knows that Shenron definitely couldn’t have helped at all and that training for the android’s arrival was the best choice they could’ve possibly made.

Cuz Super doesn’t let our boys make mistakes anymore, or at least not serious ones. There’s always a god around to explain how this mistake Goku seems to have made actually wasn’t a mistake, that he’s accidentally doijng the best thing he could possibly do, and everybody smart is very impressed at how he manages to always be right without ever even really trying to.

It’s Super’s greatest weakness and the thing most holding the story back.

[super michael]

[If that were the case, Tenshinhan wouldn't have thrown his voice behind Goku and Vegeta in wanting to have the chance to test himself against the Androids, even if he died trying. Tenshinhan was the proto Piccolo/Vegeta, his chief characteristic after his introduction was his martial artist's pride and the gall he felt at being left in the dust by Goku. He only lost that after the Cell arc's three year time skip when Toriyama decided he didn't want to play with the Earthling characters anymore.

Tien might not LIKE being left behind but it hasn’t stopped him from continuing to train and improve himself. At a certain point he had to decide he was doing that for himself, and not for the sake of the next fight.

But that reminds me of another problem I have with Super - it doesn’t let the characters just be DUMB anymore. Toriyama didn’t really try to lampshade that everyone had just been warned about the killer androids, and instead of taking care of the problem they were all excited to fight the killer robots, putting themselves and the entire world in danger because punch punch kick kick yay. He doesn’t try to excuse that. They are being dumb and they are doing a dumb thing, and it’s just the first of many mistakes they make during the Android, Cell, and Buu sagas that make everything worse,. Watching them scramble to fix messes they could’ve easily avoided but chose not to is a very Toriyama way to drive the story forward. You just know Toriyama was shaking his head at these idiots even as he gleefully found ways for their plans to blow up in their faces.

If a similar situation happened in Super, Whis or Kami or some other Voice of God character would make sure the audience knows that Shenron definitely couldn’t have helped at all and that training for the android’s arrival was the best choice they could’ve possibly made.

Cuz Super doesn’t let our boys make mistakes anymore, or at least not serious ones. There’s always a god around to explain how this mistake Goku seems to have made actually wasn’t a mistake, that he’s accidentally doijng the best thing he could possibly do, and everybody smart is very impressed at how he manages to always be right without ever even really trying to.

It’s Super’s greatest weakness and the thing most holding the story back.

Even if the Z fighters were smart and go after the cyborgs such as Dr Gero, Android 19, Cyborg 18 & 17 before they were a danger, they wouldn't have known about Cell. Cell was in a secret location that no one knew.

If Tenshinhan wanted to fight the Cyborgs and Androids, then he should be ready to train as hard as possible. He shouldn't avoid training with the best and at the best places possible. So he wants to risk the earth, but not put in the work.


DBS Goku forgot to take the senzu beans, which almost got them all killed. Goku ignored Master Roshi to wait so he could give him the talisman, therefore making it impossible to seal and beat Zamasu. Goku being irresponsible was why Zamasu became such a danger, which required Zeno to erase not only Zamasu but the entire time line, therefore erasing everyone and anything that didn't escape that time line.
Goku didn't have the brains to ask Kaioshin to travel to the past, to ask Master Roshi for the talisman and extra urn.

I think Goku Black Saga is the only time the character stupidity did a lot of damage. Destroying an entire time line means every single universe and planets gets erased, it is even worse than ToP which at least 5 universe survive.
Goku isn't at fault for the universe being at risk in getting erased in the ToP.

[ABED]

Vegeta winning the third fight against Goku bugs me. Why? Just why?

[PhantomSaiyan]

Vegeta winning the third fight against Goku bugs me. Why? Just why?

The one in Super Hero? Well, cuz it led to a funny gag, that's it.

Besides, they're basically evenly matched for most of Super, nothing wrong with either of them winning against each other, it's literally a 50% chance, no harm done in letting Vegeta win something for once lol

[JulieYBM]

They had a third fight? Like, trying to beat the shit out of one another until the other dies? When?

[super michael]

Vegeta deserves that win in DBS Super Hero movie, his skills and how thinks he needs to improve himself are good qualities. He isn't think pure strength is everything.

A fight doesn't need to be to the death to be considered a fight. Goku got knocked out first and couldn't continue the fight, therefore he lost in DBS Super Hero.
As for the Buu Saga, that fight got cancelled, therefore no one won that match.

The Saiyan Saga Goku lost that match against Vegeta, Goku couldn't do anything and even his Genki Dama failed to beat Vegeta.

[ABED]

If any character doesn't deserve a win, it's Vegeta.

Every since they decided to make Vegeta the second protagonist, it feels like they don't just want Vegeta to keep pace with Goku.

[L3anD3RStar]

If any character doesn't deserve a win, it's Vegeta.

Every since they decided to make Vegeta the second protagonist, it feels like they don't just want Vegeta to keep pace with Goku.

If you’ll allow me to put on my “overthinking” hat for a minute, I’d guess that it’s part of their determination never to have the characters grow or change ever. Vegeta can’t get over his Goku fixation, or decide there are more important things to him then training with gods to get stronger, because if he ever did, then the cozy Super status quo might have to change.

Imagine if Vegeta had learned that Beerus killed the Saiyans, and instead of deciding, “ya know what, it’s my own fault for caring, caring means I am unworthy of studying these cool named moves and now I must study something else in order to turn a stronger color” he had gone, “Holy shit I’ve been studying under my people’s killer all along. Beerus is exactly the kind of unfeeling, unrepentant murderer who kills just because it’s his job that I used to be, and I don’t want to be that anymore. In fact, I kind of hate that. I don’t want to be around Beerus anymore, and I don’t want him coming near my family, and I think if Goku decides to stay and train with them, he is MAKING A MISTAKE, because they are teaching him to be like them - unthinking, unfeeling killer who just does his job without caring or even thinking very hard. “Kakarot, you will get stronger, but at what price? Every planet Beerus has killed had people who cared just as much about their families as you do. It’s not only bad when it’s YOUR family. I learned that from you. You should be better then this. Leave them and come home. We will find another way.”

Then Goku has to make an actual CHOICE for the first time in a long time. And it’ll have consequences that’ll affect the story. It’s been a long time since his choices actually did that. It’s been a long time since he could make a mistake that could illuminate just how deep his battle mania goes.

[L3anD3RStar]

Even if the Z fighters were smart and go after the cyborgs such as Dr Gero, Android 19, Cyborg 18 & 17 before they were a danger, they wouldn't have known about Cell. Cell was in a secret location that no one knew.

Shenron might have known, if they’d asked him. Just maybe. It’s one thing to try and fail, it’s another to not even try. They didn’t try.

If Tenshinhan wanted to fight the Cyborgs and Androids, then he should be ready to train as hard as possible. He shouldn't avoid training with the best and at the best places possible. So he wants to risk the earth, but not put in the work.

Not the first or last time in the Cell arc that someone choosing the do what feels good, instead of what is the most cooly correct thing, has backfired for everybody.

DBS Goku forgot to take the senzu beans, which almost got them all killed. Goku ignored Master Roshi to wait so he could give him the talisman, therefore making it impossible to seal and beat Zamasu. Goku being irresponsible was why Zamasu became such a danger, which required Zeno to erase not only Zamasu but the entire time line, therefore erasing everyone and anything that didn't escape that time line.
Goku didn't have the brains to ask Kaioshin to travel to the past, to ask Master Roshi for the talisman and extra urn.

And that did that ultimately result in? Nothing, because Zeno destroys the universe anyway. It’s all filler made up to kill time in the anime, and I don’t hate it or call it “not cannon” but none of those mistakes ended up being held against Goku or changing his behavior at all. Why would he change when he never does anything wrong ENOUGH in his own eyes for it to matter?

Goku isn't at fault for the universe being at risk in getting erased in the ToP.

Nah, he’s just responsible for the idea of everyone having to kill each other for the entertainment of mad gods with the lives of all of their friends and loved ones as collateral. It’s like “hunger games” except your whole district gets nuked if you lose. Thanks Goku. You gave us a chance.

[ABED]

If any character doesn't deserve a win, it's Vegeta.

Every since they decided to make Vegeta the second protagonist, it feels like they don't just want Vegeta to keep pace with Goku.

If you’ll allow me to put on my “overthinking” hat for a minute, I’d guess that it’s part of their determination never to have the characters grow or change ever. Vegeta can’t get over his Goku fixation, or decide there are more important things to him then training with gods to get stronger, because if he ever did, then the cozy Super status quo might have to change.

Imagine if Vegeta had learned that Beerus killed the Saiyans, and instead of deciding, “ya know what, it’s my own fault for caring, caring means I am unworthy of studying these cool named moves and now I must study something else in order to turn a stronger color” he had gone, “Holy shit I’ve been studying under my people’s killer all along. Beerus is exactly the kind of unfeeling, unrepentant murderer who kills just because it’s his job that I used to be, and I don’t want to be that anymore. In fact, I kind of hate that. I don’t want to be around Beerus anymore, and I don’t want him coming near my family, and I think if Goku decides to stay and train with them, he is MAKING A MISTAKE, because they are teaching him to be like them - unthinking, unfeeling killer who just does his job without caring or even thinking very hard. “Kakarot, you will get stronger, but at what price? Every planet Beerus has killed had people who cared just as much about their families as you do. It’s not only bad when it’s YOUR family. I learned that from you. You should be better then this. Leave them and come home. We will find another way.”

Then Goku has to make an actual CHOICE for the first time in a long time. And it’ll have consequences that’ll affect the story. It’s been a long time since his choices actually did that. It’s been a long time since he could make a mistake that could illuminate just how deep his battle mania goes.

Vegeeta's revelation at the end of DBZ didn't cure him of a desire to be better than Goku. It just got him to a place where he could admit Goku was better than him and not have it eat him. Much like Goku uses others as a measuring stick and motivation to better himself. Why do people read it as him letting it all go and just not caring?

[L3anD3RStar]

Then Goku has to make an actual CHOICE for the first time in a long time. And it’ll have consequences that’ll affect the story. It’s been a long time since his choices actually did that. It’s been a long time since he could make a mistake that could illuminate just how deep his battle mania goes.

Vegeeta's revelation at the end of DBZ didn't cure him of a desire to be better than Goku. It just got him to a place where he could admit Goku was better than him and not have it eat him. Much like Goku uses others as a measuring stick and motivation to better himself. Why do people read it as him letting it all go and just not caring?
[/quote]

Cuz Vegeta is no longer willing to act on those feelings, or at least not willing to put them above stuff like his family and his own mental stability and inner peace.

“Show, don’t tell,” as they say. You can say he still cares, but unless he shows it with actions, it’s a narrative dead beat. It’s a resolved plot point. It can’t drive the story anymore.

[ABED]

Cuz Vegeta is no longer willing to act on those feelings, or at least not willing to put them above stuff like his family and his own mental stability and inner peace.

“Show, don’t tell,” as they say. You can say he still cares, but unless he shows it with actions, it’s a narrative dead beat. It’s a resolved plot point. It can’t drive the story anymore.

You lost me.

Nah, he’s just responsible for the idea of everyone having to kill each other for the entertainment of mad gods with the lives of all of their friends and loved ones as collateral.

No he wasn't. Zen-o is the one that came up with the idea for the tournament of power. Zen-o got the idea from the U6 vs. U7 tournament.

[L3anD3RStar]

You lost me.

Ok. Think about it from the POV of a writer. You know that bringing up a plot point and never paying it off is a bad idea. So you decide to have a character decide that the plot point is resolved without having to actually change anything. At least you addressed it! It’s been ten years according to you, so it must not be a big deal anymore, because you say so!

No he wasn't. Zen-o is the one that came up with the idea for the tournament of power. Zen-o got the idea from the U6 vs. U7 tournament.

Nope, Goku came up with the tournament idea, Zeno came up with the murder everyone idea, and Grand Priest is the guy who acted like the two ideas had been the same from the begginning

Think about it.

[DanielSSJ]

Vegeta deserves that win in DBS Super Hero movie, his skills and how thinks he needs to improve himself are good qualities. He isn't think pure strength is everything.

A fight doesn't need to be to the death to be considered a fight. Goku got knocked out first and couldn't continue the fight, therefore he lost in DBS Super Hero.
As for the Buu Saga, that fight got cancelled, therefore no one won that match.

The Saiyan Saga Goku lost that match against Vegeta, Goku couldn't do anything and even his Genki Dama failed to beat Vegeta.

Vegeta getting a W over Goku in Super Hero would mean more to me if the writers hadn't forgotten that Goku knows what mediation is. Like I know the manga version fixes that line, but Whis still throws in a dig at Goku for being oaf who only trains by pumping up his muscles.

Vegeeta's revelation at the end of DBZ didn't cure him of a desire to be better than Goku. It just got him to a place where he could admit Goku was better than him and not have it eat him. Much like Goku uses others as a measuring stick and motivation to better himself. Why do people read it as him letting it all go and just not caring?

I think part of the problem is that Vegeta often still acts like it eats at him. Though I think it's more of a problem with early Super. The latter half has been pretty good at giving Vegeta other motives to train other than Goku, such as wanting to be prepared for any moves Freeza might make against them.

[goku the krump dancer]

You lost me.

Ok. Think about it from the POV of a writer. You know that bringing up a plot point and never paying it off is a bad idea. So you decide to have a character decide that the plot point is resolved without having to actually change anything. At least you addressed it! It’s been ten years according to you, so it must not be a big deal anymore, because you say so!

No he wasn't. Zen-o is the one that came up with the idea for the tournament of power. Zen-o got the idea from the U6 vs. U7 tournament.

Nope, Goku came up with the tournament idea, Zeno came up with the murder everyone idea, and Grand Priest is the guy who acted like the two ideas had been the same from the begginning

Think about it.

Rewatch the clip, the tournament of power was Zeno’s idea, Goku was just the one to remind him months down the road. The U6 Vs U7 tournament happened at the behest of Champa and Beerus’ egos, which led to Zeno watching and being so entertained that he initially wanted ALL of the universes to duke it out, Goku was just the catalyst because he by nature enjoys fighting and by nurture is blissfully ignorant of cosmic (and social to a degree) hierarchies.

[ABED]

You lost me.

Ok. Think about it from the POV of a writer. You know that bringing up a plot point and never paying it off is a bad idea. So you decide to have a character decide that the plot point is resolved without having to actually change anything. At least you addressed it! It’s been ten years according to you, so it must not be a big deal anymore, because you say so!

No he wasn't. Zen-o is the one that came up with the idea for the tournament of power. Zen-o got the idea from the U6 vs. U7 tournament.

Nope, Goku came up with the tournament idea, Zeno came up with the murder everyone idea, and Grand Priest is the guy who acted like the two ideas had been the same from the begginning

Think about it.

I'm still lost because I have no clue what you are referring to. Please be specific because talking in vague terms isn't clarifying.

As for who is responsible for the tournament of power, I'm correct. It was Zen-o's idea. Goku just reminded him and pushed up the date.

I think part of the problem is that Vegeta often still acts like it eats at him. Though I think it's more of a problem with early Super. The latter half has been pretty good at giving Vegeta other motives to train other than Goku, such as wanting to be prepared for any moves Freeza might make against them.

I have no issue with it still bugging him. If that's the extent of it, that's progress. He's not pulling a Majin Vegeta these days.

[super michael]

Shenron might have known, if they’d asked him. Just maybe. It’s one thing to try and fail, it’s another to not even try. They didn’t try.

The Z fighters were told there was only two cyborgs, they wouldn't think of asking about Cell, since no one knew he existed. Should they have tried asking Shenron? Yes.

Not the first or last time in the Cell arc that someone choosing the do what feels good, instead of what is the most cooly correct thing, has backfired for everybody

Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Future Trunks and Piccolo did the best possible training. They didn't avoid training hard, they put in their maximum effort.
Vegeta could have got the win against Cell, if he used his brains and listen to his son. Instead he chose to protect Cell and attack his partner/son.

Tenshinhan chose to be lazy and do the bare minimum of training.

And that did that ultimately result in? Nothing, because Zeno destroys the universe anyway. It’s all filler made up to kill time in the anime, and I don’t hate it or call it “not cannon” but none of those mistakes ended up being held against Goku or changing his behavior at all. Why would he change when he never does anything wrong ENOUGH in his own eyes for it to matter?

Zeno leaves universe to survive, however in Future Trunks time line nothing survived. There are no living being, planets, universe, etc, they are all gone. That is worse than ToP, which would have left five universe alive.

Nah, he’s just responsible for the idea of everyone having to kill each other for the entertainment of mad gods with the lives of all of their friends and loved ones as collateral. It’s like “hunger games” except your whole district gets nuked if you lose. Thanks Goku. You gave us a chance.

Goku wanted a tournament not a tournament that involves universe getting erased. Zeno liked the idea of a tournament, when he saw U6 Vs U7.

Vegeta getting a W over Goku in Super Hero would mean more to me if the writers hadn't forgotten that Goku knows what mediation is. Like I know the manga version fixes that line, but Whis still throws in a dig at Goku for being oaf who only trains by pumping up his muscles.

That is why Vegeta deserves that win, he is no longer obsessed with surpassing Goku, but making himself the best in the universe. His goal is far great than simply surpassing Goku. This is in the manga.

In the movie Goku is getting worse, in the anime Goku is obsessed with Vegeta. He doesn't like the idea that Vegeta might surpass him, if Vegeta trains with Whis without him. That is why Goku acts like a spoiled brat, when Vegeta goes to Whis without letting him know.

[DanielSSJ]

That is why Vegeta deserves that win, he is no longer obsessed with surpassing Goku, but making himself the best in the universe. His goal is far great than simply surpassing Goku. This is in the manga.

In the movie Goku is getting worse, in the anime Goku is obsessed with Vegeta. He doesn't like the idea that Vegeta might surpass him, if Vegeta trains with Whis without him. That is why Goku acts like a spoiled brat, when Vegeta goes to Whis without letting him know.

It kinda feels like the series is character assassinating Goku to put Vegeta over him. Feels bad, man