Unpopular DB opinions

[kiarasuraru]

That is why Vegeta deserves that win, he is no longer obsessed with surpassing Goku, but making himself the best in the universe. His goal is far great than simply surpassing Goku. This is in the manga.

In the movie Goku is getting worse, in the anime Goku is obsessed with Vegeta. He doesn't like the idea that Vegeta might surpass him, if Vegeta trains with Whis without him. That is why Goku acts like a spoiled brat, when Vegeta goes to Whis without letting him know.

It kinda feels like the series is character assassinating Goku to put Vegeta over him. Feels bad, man

There's a reason why Vegeta keeps getting hailed as the most loving and caring familyman ever who's so remorseful and regretful of his past and always trying to make amends to everyone and everything while by total coincidence Goku keeps getting pushed as not caring about his family at all whatsoever to the point he gets yelled at by Vegeta for that and being more waku waku battle obsessed than ever not caring what gets in the way.
Half was Toriyama overcorrecting but the other half is just Toyo being a Vegeta fanboy. It's no coincidence the Vegeta stuff happens on the two big Toyo-led arcs.

[WittyUsername]

Goku has never beaten Vegeta. Not once. Vegeta defeated him in both their fights in the original manga, so him getting the win at the end of Super Hero is just business as usual.

Before anyone wants to argue that him knocking Goku out in the Boo arc doesn’t count, there was no referee around to invalidate what Vegeta did. Goku let his guard down and Vegeta was the last one standing as a result. Ergo, he won.

[ABED]

Goku has never beaten Vegeta. Not once. Vegeta defeated him in both their fights in the original manga, so him getting the win at the end of Super Hero is just business as usual.

Before anyone wants to argue that him knocking Goku out in the Boo arc doesn’t count, there was no referee around to invalidate what Vegeta did. Goku let his guard down and Vegeta was the last one standing as a result. Ergo, he won.

It cuts both ways. There was no ref to invalidate it but also not there to validate the match to begin with. Goku didn't let his guard down in the fight. They agreed to end it. So no, Vegeta didn't win.

[WittyUsername]

Goku has never beaten Vegeta. Not once. Vegeta defeated him in both their fights in the original manga, so him getting the win at the end of Super Hero is just business as usual.

Before anyone wants to argue that him knocking Goku out in the Boo arc doesn’t count, there was no referee around to invalidate what Vegeta did. Goku let his guard down and Vegeta was the last one standing as a result. Ergo, he won.

It cuts both ways. There was no ref to invalidate it but also not there to validate the match to begin with. Goku didn't let his guard down in the fight. They agreed to end it. So no, Vegeta didn't win.

Shoulda woulda coulda. Regardless, the point stands that Goku has never defeated or “humiliated” Vegeta in any of their fights. Even when it comes to their fight in the Saiyan saga, Goku was completely overwhelmed by Vegeta in his regular form and had to stack the Kaioken just to keep up. That’s why it’s weird to me that Vegeta beating Goku in Super Hero is treated by Vegeta fans as some massive game-changer or some well deserved subversive moment.

Anyway, I still don’t understand why it’s so important that Vegeta “surpass” Goku. I can’t think of any franchise other than Dragon Ball where fans have this much of a desire to see the main character get outshined and it seems like DBS has consistently gone out of its way to tear Goku down while propping up Vegeta. Let’s not forget that he also managed to obtain God ki without needing to do the ritual.

[WittyUsername]

FYI, count me the camp that Vegeta continuing to want to surpass Goku is indeed character regression. Vegeta’s monologue in the Boo arc seemed like a pretty definitive case of Vegeta letting go of his obsession with beating Goku. If that wasn’t what it was, then what was even the point? Vegeta still wants to beat Goku but now he’s no longer gonna murder people over it? Ok?

[JulieYBM]

I don't really get the way that people make this rivalry into a serious competition, like any of it matters. What does it really matter who wins, so long as they both get good character arcs out of their fights?

[super michael]

Goku has never beaten Vegeta. Not once. Vegeta defeated him in both their fights in the original manga, so him getting the win at the end of Super Hero is just business as usual.

Before anyone wants to argue that him knocking Goku out in the Boo arc doesn’t count, there was no referee around to invalidate what Vegeta did. Goku let his guard down and Vegeta was the last one standing as a result. Ergo, he won.

It cuts both ways. There was no ref to invalidate it but also not there to validate the match to begin with. Goku didn't let his guard down in the fight. They agreed to end it. So no, Vegeta didn't win.

Nice one there, you are correct. If it doesn't count that Vegeta cancelled the match due to there being no referee, then there is no official win or lose in that match. Regardless Vegeta said that he is stopping the match, which Goku agrees, therefore they both cancelled the match.

Vegeta puching Goten and Trunks out of the blue doesn't mean Vegeta beat them. He knocked them out so they don't witness Vegeta sacrifice and don't get caught in his explosion.

Goku throwing a surprise ki blast as Elder Kaioshin doesn't mean Goku beat him.

[Zephyr]

Yeah a cheap win is still cheap, even if it's a win. A non-cheap win is clearly what Vegeta's pining for.

[WittyUsername]

Vegeta blindsided Goku and knocked him out. You can argue whatever semantics you want, but that sure sounds like Goku lost to me. If Vegeta pretending he was done fighting was enough to cause Goku to completely ignore his surroundings, then that’s on him.

All I’m saying is that for all the talk about how Vegeta “deserves” to beat Goku, it’s funny that Goku has never beaten him. Out of all their fights, there has never been one where Goku was the last one standing, yet both Vegeta and the fanbase constantly act like the opposite is true.

[super michael]

Yeah a cheap win is still cheap, even if it's a win. A non-cheap win is clearly what Vegeta's pining for.

How can the match be considered a win, when the match was over? If there is no match, that means there is no winner or loser.

Kid Chi Chi grabbed Goku tail, without knowing that would make him lose all his powers. Does that mean Chi Chi won, even though there was no fight?

If Kid Chi Chi managed to knock out Master Roshi with her surprise attack, would that mean she beat him even though there was no fight?


Technically Goku did beat Vegeta in DBS both anime and manga. Whis said the rules was no transformation, which Vegeta broke the rules first just because he couldn't land a hit on Goku. Goku was dodging all of Vegeta attack. This is before U6 vs U7.

[WittyUsername]

Look, this really shouldn’t be complicated. Chi-Chi wasn’t fighting Goku or Roshi. Goku was fighting Vegeta and by the end of the fight, he was unconscious while Vegeta wasn’t.

[super michael]

Look, this really shouldn’t be complicated. Chi-Chi wasn’t fighting Goku or Roshi. Goku was fighting Vegeta and by the end of the fight, he was unconscious while Vegeta wasn’t.

That is were you are wrong. Both Goku and Vegeta called the match off, that means there was no match once they agreed to end the fight.

Vegeta sneak attack on Goku is no different than Chi Chi grabbing Goku tail or Chi Chi throwing her weapon at a unexpected Master Roshi.

I edited my previous post to add when Goku beat Vegeta fair and square in DBS. Before U6 vs U7 when Vegeta broke Whis rule.

[ABED]

Goku has never beaten Vegeta. Not once. Vegeta defeated him in both their fights in the original manga, so him getting the win at the end of Super Hero is just business as usual.

Before anyone wants to argue that him knocking Goku out in the Boo arc doesn’t count, there was no referee around to invalidate what Vegeta did. Goku let his guard down and Vegeta was the last one standing as a result. Ergo, he won.

It cuts both ways. There was no ref to invalidate it but also not there to validate the match to begin with. Goku didn't let his guard down in the fight. They agreed to end it. So no, Vegeta didn't win.

Shoulda woulda coulda. Regardless, the point stands that Goku has never defeated or “humiliated” Vegeta in any of their fights. Even when it comes to their fight in the Saiyan saga, Goku was completely overwhelmed by Vegeta in his regular form and had to stack the Kaioken just to keep up. That’s why it’s weird to me that Vegeta beating Goku in Super Hero is treated by Vegeta fans as some massive game-changer or some well deserved subversive moment.

Anyway, I still don’t understand why it’s so important that Vegeta “surpass” Goku. I can’t think of any franchise other than Dragon Ball where fans have this much of a desire to see the main character get outshined and it seems like DBS has consistently gone out of its way to tear Goku down while propping up Vegeta. Let’s not forget that he also managed to obtain God ki without needing to do the ritual.

This isn't a hypothetical. He didn't win. The match was called off. Ergo, not a win. You don't get to say "there was no ref around to invalidated it" if there was no ref around to validate it.

Vegeta feels humilated not because he didn't beat Goku in their first fight, but because he should have never got as far as he did and from that point on he's constantly had to play catch up, including their second fight where it resulted in a no contest. To add insult to injury, he had to give up some control to Babidi to get the power up only to find out he had no chance if Goku fought full power

FYI, count me the camp that Vegeta continuing to want to surpass Goku is indeed character regression. Vegeta’s monologue in the Boo arc seemed like a pretty definitive case of Vegeta letting go of his obsession with beating Goku. If that wasn’t what it was, then what was even the point? Vegeta still wants to beat Goku but now he’s no longer gonna murder people over it? Ok?

That wasn't what his monologue was about. As to your last sentence - yes, That's it. He still wants to better himself and Goku is his measuring stick, It just doesn't wound his pride to admit when someone is better. That's progress.

Vegeta blindsided Goku and knocked him out. You can argue whatever semantics you want, but that sure sounds like Goku lost to me. If Vegeta pretending he was done fighting was enough to cause Goku to completely ignore his surroundings, then that’s on him.

That's not semantics. They explicitly agreed to end the fight. He didn't even knock Goku out to "beat him". He was knocking him out so Goku wouldn't stop him from what he was going to do against Buu.

Look, this really shouldn’t be complicated. Chi-Chi wasn’t fighting Goku or Roshi. Goku was fighting Vegeta and by the end of the fight, he was unconscious while Vegeta wasn’t.

No, that was AFTER the fight was called off.

[WittyUsername]

Look, this really shouldn’t be complicated. Chi-Chi wasn’t fighting Goku or Roshi. Goku was fighting Vegeta and by the end of the fight, he was unconscious while Vegeta wasn’t.

That is were you are wrong. Both Goku and Vegeta called the match off, that means there was no match once they agreed to end the fight.

Vegeta sneak attack on Goku is no different than Chi Chi grabbing Goku tail or Chi Chi throwing her weapon at a unexpected Master Roshi.

I edited my previous post to add when Goku beat Vegeta fair and square in DBS. Before U6 vs U7 when Vegeta broke Whis rule.

Is there some kind of rulebook that says that a fight is no longer a fight if it’s “called off”? They weren’t fighting in a tournament. There were no rules in their fight.

[WittyUsername]

It cuts both ways. There was no ref to invalidate it but also not there to validate the match to begin with. Goku didn't let his guard down in the fight. They agreed to end it. So no, Vegeta didn't win.

Shoulda woulda coulda. Regardless, the point stands that Goku has never defeated or “humiliated” Vegeta in any of their fights. Even when it comes to their fight in the Saiyan saga, Goku was completely overwhelmed by Vegeta in his regular form and had to stack the Kaioken just to keep up. That’s why it’s weird to me that Vegeta beating Goku in Super Hero is treated by Vegeta fans as some massive game-changer or some well deserved subversive moment.

Anyway, I still don’t understand why it’s so important that Vegeta “surpass” Goku. I can’t think of any franchise other than Dragon Ball where fans have this much of a desire to see the main character get outshined and it seems like DBS has consistently gone out of its way to tear Goku down while propping up Vegeta. Let’s not forget that he also managed to obtain God ki without needing to do the ritual.

This isn't a hypothetical. He didn't win. The match was called off. Ergo, not a win. You don't get to say "there was no ref around to invalidated it" if there was no ref around to validate it.

Vegeta feels humilated not because he didn't beat Goku in their first fight, but because he should have never got as far as he did and from that point on he's constantly had to play catch up, including their second fight where it resulted in a no contest. To add insult to injury, he had to give up some control to Babidi to get the power up only to find out he had no chance if Goku fought full power

FYI, count me the camp that Vegeta continuing to want to surpass Goku is indeed character regression. Vegeta’s monologue in the Boo arc seemed like a pretty definitive case of Vegeta letting go of his obsession with beating Goku. If that wasn’t what it was, then what was even the point? Vegeta still wants to beat Goku but now he’s no longer gonna murder people over it? Ok?

That wasn't what his monologue was about. As to your last sentence - yes, That's it. He still wants to better himself and Goku is his measuring stick, It just doesn't wound his pride to admit when someone is better. That's progress.

Vegeta blindsided Goku and knocked him out. You can argue whatever semantics you want, but that sure sounds like Goku lost to me. If Vegeta pretending he was done fighting was enough to cause Goku to completely ignore his surroundings, then that’s on him.

That's not semantics. They explicitly agreed to end the fight. He didn't even knock Goku out to "beat him". He was knocking him out so Goku wouldn't stop him from what he was going to do against Buu.

I could just as easily argue that Goku should’ve felt humiliated that he needed to use the Kaioken x3 just to put a dent in Vegeta, and even that wasn’t enough. Frankly, Vegeta probably didn’t even need to become a Great Ape to win. Goku was already exhausted and out of energy by that point, while Vegeta was still more or less at full power. Goku even acknowledged that Vegeta was better than him, hence why he wanted to fight him again. Just because Vegeta decided to be an overly dramatic baby about it doesn’t change the fact that he outmatched Goku.

As to your point about Vegeta’s monologue, that sounds like the absolute bare minimum of progress. “I still hate you and want to defeat you, but from now on, I’m not gonna let myself get brainwashed by an evil wizard over it!”

Hooray?

[ABED]

The Kaio-ken wasn't magic and he didn't have to give over control to another person. It was Goku's own power. It just comes at a cost. No one is arguing that Vegeta didn't win that first fight. It's not relevant to how Vegeta sees things. He still sees it as a lower class warrior getting much further than he ever should have. Then Goku is the one that becomes the legendary Super Saiyan. No matter how strong he gets, he keeps increasing the gap in their powers. It doesn't matter if it's rational. It matters that it makes sense to Vegeta, the homicidal maniac.

As to your point about Vegeta’s monologue, that sounds like the absolute bare minimum of progress. “I still hate you and want to defeat you, but from now on, I’m not gonna let myself get brainwashed by an evil wizard over it!”

Hooray?

Vegeta doesn't hate him. And given the sheer volume of Vegeta's crimes, this is progress. Keep in mind that only a day prior he murdered hundreds of spectators to push a pissing contest with Goku.

[super michael]

Look, this really shouldn’t be complicated. Chi-Chi wasn’t fighting Goku or Roshi. Goku was fighting Vegeta and by the end of the fight, he was unconscious while Vegeta wasn’t.

That is were you are wrong. Both Goku and Vegeta called the match off, that means there was no match once they agreed to end the fight.

Vegeta sneak attack on Goku is no different than Chi Chi grabbing Goku tail or Chi Chi throwing her weapon at a unexpected Master Roshi.

I edited my previous post to add when Goku beat Vegeta fair and square in DBS. Before U6 vs U7 when Vegeta broke Whis rule.

Is there some kind of rulebook that says that a fight is no longer a fight if it’s “called off”? They weren’t fighting in a tournament. There were no rules in their fight.

Normally in a fight both fighters agree to fight. If both fighters agrees to end the match, then the match is over. Anything that happens after the match end isn't part of the fight.

Vegeta didn't do his sneak attack to win the match, he did it so he could fight Majin Buu by himself, to atone for what he did. There is nothing more than that.

I could just as easily argue that Goku should’ve felt humiliated that he needed to use the Kaioken x3 just to put a dent in Vegeta, and even that wasn’t enough. Frankly, Vegeta probably didn’t even need to become a Great Ape to win. Goku was already exhausted and out of energy by that point, while Vegeta was still more or less at full power. Goku even acknowledged that Vegeta was better than him, hence why he wanted to fight him again. Just because Vegeta decided to be an overly dramatic baby about it doesn’t change the fact that he outmatched Goku.

Lets not forget that Vegeta creating his artificial moon cost a lot of ki, even Goku notice that Vegeta ki went down a lot. There is no doubt Vegeta beats Goku without transforming, Vegeta transforming was just overkill.

Regardless Vegeta won that match fair and square.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jL_5-m8ykU

I can't find the video of Goku and Vegeta fighting in their base form. But I hope this video helps. That was the punishment for breaking Whis rules about no transformation.

[JulieYBM]

Shoulda woulda coulda. Regardless, the point stands that Goku has never defeated or “humiliated” Vegeta in any of their fights. Even when it comes to their fight in the Saiyan saga, Goku was completely overwhelmed by Vegeta in his regular form and had to stack the Kaioken just to keep up. That’s why it’s weird to me that Vegeta beating Goku in Super Hero is treated by Vegeta fans as some massive game-changer or some well deserved subversive moment.

Anyway, I still don’t understand why it’s so important that Vegeta “surpass” Goku. I can’t think of any franchise other than Dragon Ball where fans have this much of a desire to see the main character get outshined and it seems like DBS has consistently gone out of its way to tear Goku down while propping up Vegeta. Let’s not forget that he also managed to obtain God ki without needing to do the ritual.

This isn't a hypothetical. He didn't win. The match was called off. Ergo, not a win. You don't get to say "there was no ref around to invalidated it" if there was no ref around to validate it.

Vegeta feels humilated not because he didn't beat Goku in their first fight, but because he should have never got as far as he did and from that point on he's constantly had to play catch up, including their second fight where it resulted in a no contest. To add insult to injury, he had to give up some control to Babidi to get the power up only to find out he had no chance if Goku fought full power

FYI, count me the camp that Vegeta continuing to want to surpass Goku is indeed character regression. Vegeta’s monologue in the Boo arc seemed like a pretty definitive case of Vegeta letting go of his obsession with beating Goku. If that wasn’t what it was, then what was even the point? Vegeta still wants to beat Goku but now he’s no longer gonna murder people over it? Ok?

That wasn't what his monologue was about. As to your last sentence - yes, That's it. He still wants to better himself and Goku is his measuring stick, It just doesn't wound his pride to admit when someone is better. That's progress.

Vegeta blindsided Goku and knocked him out. You can argue whatever semantics you want, but that sure sounds like Goku lost to me. If Vegeta pretending he was done fighting was enough to cause Goku to completely ignore his surroundings, then that’s on him.

That's not semantics. They explicitly agreed to end the fight. He didn't even knock Goku out to "beat him". He was knocking him out so Goku wouldn't stop him from what he was going to do against Buu.

I could just as easily argue that Goku should’ve felt humiliated that he needed to use the Kaioken x3 just to put a dent in Vegeta, and even that wasn’t enough. Frankly, Vegeta probably didn’t even need to become a Great Ape to win. Goku was already exhausted and out of energy by that point, while Vegeta was still more or less at full power. Goku even acknowledged that Vegeta was better than him, hence why he wanted to fight him again. Just because Vegeta decided to be an overly dramatic baby about it doesn’t change the fact that he outmatched Goku.

Would you say, then, that Goku having Super Saiyan 3 in reserve is equivalent to Vegeta having his Great Ape form in reserve and then not actually needing to use it to beat Vegeta? Or is the fact that they were both evenly matched as Super Saiyan 2 and Vegeta was able to knock Goku unconscious through playing on Goku's trusting nature proof that Vegeta is a better fighter because he knew how to work around being out-powered—even if he didn't know that Goku had Super Saiyan 3 in his back pocket? Or better yet, knew how to work around facing an opponent with no readily available power and speed advantage over them?

[WittyUsername]

The Kaio-ken wasn't magic and he didn't have to give over control to another person. It was Goku's own power. It just comes at a cost. No one is arguing that Vegeta didn't win that first fight. It's not relevant to how Vegeta sees things. He still sees it as a lower class warrior getting much further than he ever should have. Then Goku is the one that becomes the legendary Super Saiyan. No matter how strong he gets, he keeps increasing the gap in their powers. It doesn't matter if it's rational. It matters that it makes sense to Vegeta, the homicidal maniac.

The Great Ape transformation wasn't magic either. Vegeta was using his natural ability and unlike the Kaioken, Vegeta didn’t need to become taught it by a God.

Sure, it makes sense to Vegeta, but what I don’t understand is why it apparently makes sense to the fanbase, to the point where they think him beating Goku I. SH was apparently the first time something like that ever happened.

[ABED]

The Kaio-ken wasn't magic and he didn't have to give over control to another person. It was Goku's own power. It just comes at a cost. No one is arguing that Vegeta didn't win that first fight. It's not relevant to how Vegeta sees things. He still sees it as a lower class warrior getting much further than he ever should have. Then Goku is the one that becomes the legendary Super Saiyan. No matter how strong he gets, he keeps increasing the gap in their powers. It doesn't matter if it's rational. It matters that it makes sense to Vegeta, the homicidal maniac.

The Great Ape transformation wasn't magic either. Vegeta was using his natural ability and unlike the Kaioken, Vegeta didn’t need to become taught it by a God.

Sure, it makes sense to Vegeta, but what I don’t understand is why it apparently makes sense to the fanbase, to the point where they think him beating Goku I. SH was apparently the first time something like that ever happened.

No one is arguing that Vegeta didn't win the first fight.

It makes sense to the fanbase because they get the internal logic of the character.