Unpopular DB opinions

[super michael]

The Kaio-ken wasn't magic and he didn't have to give over control to another person. It was Goku's own power. It just comes at a cost. No one is arguing that Vegeta didn't win that first fight. It's not relevant to how Vegeta sees things. He still sees it as a lower class warrior getting much further than he ever should have. Then Goku is the one that becomes the legendary Super Saiyan. No matter how strong he gets, he keeps increasing the gap in their powers. It doesn't matter if it's rational. It matters that it makes sense to Vegeta, the homicidal maniac.

The Great Ape transformation wasn't magic either. Vegeta was using his natural ability and unlike the Kaioken, Vegeta didn’t need to become taught it by a God.

Sure, it makes sense to Vegeta, but what I don’t understand is why it apparently makes sense to the fanbase, to the point where they think him beating Goku I. SH was apparently the first time something like that ever happened.

Any normal Saiyan lose control of their Oozaru form without training, we saw this happen to Goku, Gohan, Broly and it was mentioned that other Saiyan with Paragus would lose control of his Oozaru form. Normally Saiyans don't even remember what happens when they transform.


Kaioken is a technique learn, just like any techniques that they learn. They are not born with the techniques that they know, they have to master it.

[WittyUsername]

This isn't a hypothetical. He didn't win. The match was called off. Ergo, not a win. You don't get to say "there was no ref around to invalidated it" if there was no ref around to validate it.

Vegeta feels humilated not because he didn't beat Goku in their first fight, but because he should have never got as far as he did and from that point on he's constantly had to play catch up, including their second fight where it resulted in a no contest. To add insult to injury, he had to give up some control to Babidi to get the power up only to find out he had no chance if Goku fought full powerThat wasn't what his monologue was about. As to your last sentence - yes, That's it. He still wants to better himself and Goku is his measuring stick, It just doesn't wound his pride to admit when someone is better. That's progress.

That's not semantics. They explicitly agreed to end the fight. He didn't even knock Goku out to "beat him". He was knocking him out so Goku wouldn't stop him from what he was going to do against Buu.

I could just as easily argue that Goku should’ve felt humiliated that he needed to use the Kaioken x3 just to put a dent in Vegeta, and even that wasn’t enough. Frankly, Vegeta probably didn’t even need to become a Great Ape to win. Goku was already exhausted and out of energy by that point, while Vegeta was still more or less at full power. Goku even acknowledged that Vegeta was better than him, hence why he wanted to fight him again. Just because Vegeta decided to be an overly dramatic baby about it doesn’t change the fact that he outmatched Goku.

Would you say, then, that Goku having Super Saiyan 3 in reserve is equivalent to Vegeta having his Great Ape form in reserve and then not actually needing to use it to beat Vegeta? Or is the fact that they were both evenly matched and Vegeta was able to knock Goku unconscious through playing on his trusting nature proof that Vegeta is a better fighter because he knew how to work around being out-powered—even if he didn't know that Goku had Super Saiyan 3 in his back pocket?

I’m not disputing that Goku could’ve beat Vegeta, although I’m pretty sure Toriyama hadn’t thought of Super Saiyan 3 yet at the time. I’m just saying that for the purposes of the fight, Goku didn’t beat Vegeta. Still, even if you want to argue that Vegeta didn’t “win” that particular fight, he definitely won his first fight with Goku, so even following that logic, Vegeta’s win at the end of SH wasn’t the first time he beat Goku.

[WittyUsername]

The Kaio-ken wasn't magic and he didn't have to give over control to another person. It was Goku's own power. It just comes at a cost. No one is arguing that Vegeta didn't win that first fight. It's not relevant to how Vegeta sees things. He still sees it as a lower class warrior getting much further than he ever should have. Then Goku is the one that becomes the legendary Super Saiyan. No matter how strong he gets, he keeps increasing the gap in their powers. It doesn't matter if it's rational. It matters that it makes sense to Vegeta, the homicidal maniac.

The Great Ape transformation wasn't magic either. Vegeta was using his natural ability and unlike the Kaioken, Vegeta didn’t need to become taught it by a God.

Sure, it makes sense to Vegeta, but what I don’t understand is why it apparently makes sense to the fanbase, to the point where they think him beating Goku I. SH was apparently the first time something like that ever happened.

Any normal Saiyan lose control of their Oozaru form without training, we saw this happen to Goku, Gohan, Broly and it was mentioned that other Saiyan with Paragus would lose control of his Oozaru form. Normally Saiyans don't even remember what happens when they transform.


Kaioken is a technique learn, just like any techniques that they learn. They are not born with the techniques that they know, they have to master it.

If anything, the fact that Vegeta was able to maintain control in his Great Ape form seems like something he should be proud of. Not sure why that’s relevant.

[JulieYBM]

I could just as easily argue that Goku should’ve felt humiliated that he needed to use the Kaioken x3 just to put a dent in Vegeta, and even that wasn’t enough. Frankly, Vegeta probably didn’t even need to become a Great Ape to win. Goku was already exhausted and out of energy by that point, while Vegeta was still more or less at full power. Goku even acknowledged that Vegeta was better than him, hence why he wanted to fight him again. Just because Vegeta decided to be an overly dramatic baby about it doesn’t change the fact that he outmatched Goku.

Would you say, then, that Goku having Super Saiyan 3 in reserve is equivalent to Vegeta having his Great Ape form in reserve and then not actually needing to use it to beat Vegeta? Or is the fact that they were both evenly matched and Vegeta was able to knock Goku unconscious through playing on his trusting nature proof that Vegeta is a better fighter because he knew how to work around being out-powered—even if he didn't know that Goku had Super Saiyan 3 in his back pocket?

I’m not disputing that Goku could’ve beat Vegeta, although I’m pretty sure Toriyama hadn’t thought of Super Saiyan 3 yet at the time. I’m just saying that for the purposes of the fight, Goku didn’t beat Vegeta. Still, even if you want to argue that Vegeta didn’t “win” that particular fight, he definitely won his first fight with Goku, so even following that logic, Vegeta’s win at the end of SH wasn’t the first time he beat Goku.

Oh, for sure. You're correct on all counts. I'm just playing along with the in-universe logic to see how the characters might feel. Like, I really doubt either character would feel fully satisfied by that Majin Buu arc battle.

[super michael]

The Great Ape transformation wasn't magic either. Vegeta was using his natural ability and unlike the Kaioken, Vegeta didn’t need to become taught it by a God.

Sure, it makes sense to Vegeta, but what I don’t understand is why it apparently makes sense to the fanbase, to the point where they think him beating Goku I. SH was apparently the first time something like that ever happened.

Any normal Saiyan lose control of their Oozaru form without training, we saw this happen to Goku, Gohan, Broly and it was mentioned that other Saiyan with Paragus would lose control of his Oozaru form. Normally Saiyans don't even remember what happens when they transform.


Kaioken is a technique learn, just like any techniques that they learn. They are not born with the techniques that they know, they have to master it.

If anything, the fact that Vegeta was able to maintain control in his Great Ape form seems like something he should be proud of. Not sure why that’s relevant.

I agree with you there, Vegeta mastering a form that is thought to be hard or impossible is something to be proud of. He even learned how to talk in his Oozaru, something we have never seen before.

My point is learn any technique and mastering their technique is good.

[Zephyr]

Yeah a cheap win is still cheap, even if it's a win. A non-cheap win is clearly what Vegeta's pining for.

How can the match be considered a win, when the match was over? If there is no match, that means there is no winner or loser.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I had a horse in that race. My point is that even if you wanted to argue it counts as a win, it's obviously too cheap of one to matter to Vegeta.

[L3anD3RStar]

The Z fighters were told there was only two cyborgs, they wouldn't think of asking about Cell, since no one knew he existed. Should they have tried asking Shenron? Yes.

Right. It’s wrong to say that stopping the cyborgs wouldn’t have stopped Cell, because stopping any bad guy doesn’t necessarily prevent the NEXT bad guy. It’s still worth it to try. Everyone made the choice for their own reasons to let the android attack happen, and just hope they’d done enough chin-ups to prevent the apocalypse.

Tenshinhan chose to be lazy and do the bare minimum of training.

Tien’s maximum isn’t like everyone else’s. He’a a weird case. And we find out that he has at least one move in his arsenal that can stagger Cell, so it’s not like he’s given up entirely.

Zeno leaves universe to survive, however in Future Trunks time line nothing survived. There are no living being, planets, universe, etc, they are all gone. That is worse than ToP, which would have left five universe alive.

TOP would’ve killed five universes. Everyone was competing for it to just be everyone else and not theirs.

Goku wanted a tournament not a tournament that involves universe getting erased. Zeno liked the idea of a tournament, when he saw U6 Vs U7.

Someone had to combine the two idea. Who linked the “let’s kill everyone” idea with the “let’s have a fun death battle” idea? Was it Zeno? Did he think the sport would be better with higher stakes? Was it Grand Priest, still trying to get as many universes deleted as possible (he’s the one who suggested the number and status of the universes with “low mortal levels” whatever that means. Or was it Goku?

We don’t know. We just know that Goku set out to fight in a tournament where the losers would all be murdered and he was just fine with that. He didn’t object. He just worked as hard as possible to make sure it wasn’t HIS loved ones being erased. He never tried to stop it from happening. He let it happen. He didn’t even try.

Vegeta getting a W over Goku in Super Hero would mean more to me if the writers hadn't forgotten that Goku knows what mediation is. Like I know the manga version fixes that line, but Whis still throws in a dig at Goku for being oaf who only trains by pumping up his muscles.

That is why Vegeta deserves that win, he is no longer obsessed with surpassing Goku, but making himself the best in the universe. His goal is far great than simply surpassing Goku. This is in the manga.

TotallyNotMark talked about this in his latest episode - that Toei really doesn’t want to progress Vegeta’s character beyond the pride obsessed violent guy everybody already knows and likes. Toriyama himself had to do the daring stuff in BoG to breathe new life into these characters and give them new places to go, but both Toei and Toyotaro have been spinning their wheels ever since in their determination to never let their comfy status quo change ever.

[DanielSSJ]

Tien’s maximum isn’t like everyone else’s. He’a a weird case. And we find out that he has at least one move in his arsenal that can stagger Cell, so it’s not like he’s given up entirely.

There's also the fact that if any of the Earthlings did accept Goku's offer to train with them, it would've come at the expense of Goku's training. Kuririn was right, they wouldn't have been able to keep up with the intensity of a Super Saiyan, so Goku would've had to slow down to match their pace. Gohan had the exact same concern when he and Goku went into the Room of Spriit and Time, but at least there'd eventually be a return on Goku's investment when Gohan became a Super Saiyan. That's never happening with the Earthlings. So what if Tenshinhan could've gotten ten or even a hundred times stronger than he did? It'd be all for nothing if Goku and Piccolo's own gains were halved.

Plus, Tenshinhan moreso than anyone is dominated by his martial artist's pride. He's probably still treating this like a competition and Goku a rival. Kuririn doesn't think he could keep up, but Tenshinhan was probably too prideful to accept the help. There's a lot of reasons Tenshinhan wouldn't have trained with Goku, but laziness isn't one of them.

[super michael]

TOP would’ve killed five universes. Everyone was competing for it to just be everyone else and not theirs.

There were four universe not competiting since their mortal level was high, therefore they wouldn't get erased. The winner of the ToP would not get erased. That means a total of five universe would survive.

Not every existing universe were competing for their survive, only those with low mortal level were competing.

8 out of 12 universe were competing.

Right. It’s wrong to say that stopping the cyborgs wouldn’t have stopped Cell, because stopping any bad guy doesn’t necessarily prevent the NEXT bad guy. It’s still worth it to try. Everyone made the choice for their own reasons to let the android attack happen, and just hope they’d done enough chin-ups to prevent the apocalypse.

I agree that they should have tried to stop the cyborgs before they got activated or even ready for action, I don't disagree with that.
As for Cell there was no stopping him, the best that they could do is prevent his evolution by getting rid of C17 and C18. However Cell can still absorb people to gain power.

Tien’s maximum isn’t like everyone else’s. He’a a weird case. And we find out that he has at least one move in his arsenal that can stagger Cell, so it’s not like he’s given up entirely.

Imagine if Tenshinhan trained in the ROSAT before the Cell Game, surely his Shin Kikoho can power up way more. Even if he can't win a fight, he could have been a huge support.

Someone had to combine the two idea. Who linked the “let’s kill everyone” idea with the “let’s have a fun death battle” idea? Was it Zeno? Did he think the sport would be better with higher stakes? Was it Grand Priest, still trying to get as many universes deleted as possible (he’s the one who suggested the number and status of the universes with “low mortal levels” whatever that means. Or was it Goku?

We don’t know. We just know that Goku set out to fight in a tournament where the losers would all be murdered and he was just fine with that. He didn’t object. He just worked as hard as possible to make sure it wasn’t HIS loved ones being erased. He never tried to stop it from happening. He let it happen. He didn’t even try.

Actually Goku did want to go to Zeno to talk him out of kill the universe, however Whis suggested that was a bad idea.

Present Zeno saw the U6 Vs U7 tournament, even if no one reminded Zeno eventually Zeno would erase everyone. Universe 7 selfless wish rescued all the universe that got erased.

[Koitsukai]

There are plenty of fights where someone dropped their guard and got owned, like Goku vs Raditz or Goku vs Ginyu. But those were still ongoing fights where only one fighter thought it was over.

This wasn't. Goku turned around to grab Geets a senzu because Vegeta had agreed to end the fight. He wasn't letting his guard down mid-fight, he was acting on the understanding that the fight was over. Vegeta exploiting that trust doesn't retroactively turn it into a win.

[super michael]

There are plenty of fights where someone dropped their guard and got owned, like Goku vs Raditz or Goku vs Ginyu. But those were still ongoing fights where only one fighter thought it was over.

This wasn't. Goku turned around to grab Geets a senzu because Vegeta had agreed to end the fight. He wasn't letting his guard down mid-fight, he was acting on the understanding that the fight was over. Vegeta exploiting that trust doesn't retroactively turn it into a win.

The fight between Goku vs Ginyu was never called off, Goku assumed that Ginyu wouldn't be able to do anything against him, seeing that Ginyu was weaker than him. Therefore that fight was fair which includes changing their body.
Goku did give Ginyu a chance to give up, which he refused.

[Koitsukai]

There are plenty of fights where someone dropped their guard and got owned, like Goku vs Raditz or Goku vs Ginyu. But those were still ongoing fights where only one fighter thought it was over.

This wasn't. Goku turned around to grab Geets a senzu because Vegeta had agreed to end the fight. He wasn't letting his guard down mid-fight, he was acting on the understanding that the fight was over. Vegeta exploiting that trust doesn't retroactively turn it into a win.

The fight between Goku vs Ginyu was never called off, Goku assumed that Ginyu wouldn't be able to do anything against him, seeing that Ginyu was weaker than him. Therefore that fight was fair which includes changing their body.
Goku did give Ginyu a chance to give up, which he refused.

That's what I said. Goku thought flexing was enough to end the fight with Ginyu, it wasn't, he dropped his guard and lost his body.
Versus Vegeta, they both agreed to end it.

[L3anD3RStar]

There were four universe not competiting since their mortal level was high, therefore they wouldn't get erased. The winner of the ToP would not get erased. That means a total of five universe would survive.

That’s worse. It means all creation is reduced by more than half, and everyone acts like that’s fine. Zeno is going to destroy everything eventually and that’s FINE for some reason.

I agree that they should have tried to stop the cyborgs before they got activated or even ready for action, I don't disagree with that.
As for Cell there was no stopping him, the best that they could do is prevent his evolution by getting rid of C17 and C18. However Cell can still absorb people to gain power.

Again, stopping the bad guy doesn’t neccesarily prevent the next bad guy. It’s still worth it to try.

Imagine if Tenshinhan trained in the ROSAT before the Cell Game, surely his Shin Kikoho can power up way more. Even if he can't win a fight, he could have been a huge support.

He has his reasons,

Actually Goku did want to go to Zeno to talk him out of kill the universe, however Whis suggested that was a bad idea.

And Goku just accepted that and went along with whole universes dying. As long as they aren’t HIS universe then it’s not bad! I wanna get my friends together and fight really hard! This will be fun!

X

Present Zeno saw the U6 Vs U7 tournament, even if no one reminded Zeno eventually Zeno would erase everyone. Universe 7 selfless wish rescued all the universe that got erased.

And nobody thinks that’s messed up? Everyone leaves the ToP pretty content and happy about how it went, and nobody holds their murder by Zeno against the gods. Everything just goes back to normal.

It’s messed up.

[super michael]

That’s worse. It means all creation is reduced by more than half, and everyone acts like that’s fine. Zeno is going to destroy everything eventually and that’s FINE for some reason.

Five universe surviving is better than zero universe surviving like in Future Trunks time line. Nothing exist in that time line, they were given zero chance to rebuild.

Worst case scenario 5 universe would continue to exist in the present time line, which luckily that didn't happen they all survived.

Again, stopping the bad guy doesn’t neccesarily prevent the next bad guy. It’s still worth it to try.

I agree with you about stopping the threat that exist. I don't consider Cell a next threat, since he is Dr Gero creation, that happened to time travel.

None the less I agree with stopping the existing threat. Use the Dragon Ball to locate Dr Gero lab and check if he is doing evil things like his future counter part. When they see that he is doing evil things, then the Z fighters stops him and his creations.

He has his reasons,

He has no reason to avoid the ROSAT, especially when there was plenty of time. He wanted to fight in the Cell Games, but not do the training.

No one had to sacrifice their turn in the ROSAT, especially when there is a two day limit.

And Goku just accepted that and went along with whole universes dying. As long as they aren’t HIS universe then it’s not bad! I wanna get my friends together and fight really hard! This will be fun!

What choice did Goku have? If he went to Zeno, that could make the situation worse. However I will give you this, Goku should not have acted like a villain towards the other universe to provoke them.

Goku not taking the situation serious and recruit seriously was dumb on him, Beerus had to remind him multiple times.

And nobody thinks that’s messed up? Everyone leaves the ToP pretty content and happy about how it went, and nobody holds their murder by Zeno against the gods. Everything just goes back to normal.

It’s messed up.

You are 100% correct. However what can the mortals do? He is the most powerful God of them all, there is no one above him. Not even Kami, Kaio, Kaioshin and GoD are immune from Zeno.

[WittyUsername]

There are plenty of fights where someone dropped their guard and got owned, like Goku vs Raditz or Goku vs Ginyu. But those were still ongoing fights where only one fighter thought it was over.

This wasn't. Goku turned around to grab Geets a senzu because Vegeta had agreed to end the fight. He wasn't letting his guard down mid-fight, he was acting on the understanding that the fight was over. Vegeta exploiting that trust doesn't retroactively turn it into a win.

I would argue that Goku still should’ve remained on his guard, so the fact that he wasn’t would still mean Vegeta got the better of him.

[super michael]

There are plenty of fights where someone dropped their guard and got owned, like Goku vs Raditz or Goku vs Ginyu. But those were still ongoing fights where only one fighter thought it was over.

This wasn't. Goku turned around to grab Geets a senzu because Vegeta had agreed to end the fight. He wasn't letting his guard down mid-fight, he was acting on the understanding that the fight was over. Vegeta exploiting that trust doesn't retroactively turn it into a win.

I would argue that Goku still should’ve remained on his guard, so the fact that he wasn’t would still mean Vegeta got the better of him.

There was no more fight between Goku and Vegeta, their next objective was to fight Majin Buu. However Vegeta idea was to fight alone. Vegeta didn't knock out Goku to win the match, he did it to fight Buu alone, there is nothing more to it than that.

Goku and Ginyu knew they were still fighting, Goku gave Ginyu the choice to quit the fight, but Ginyu never said he would quit.

Vegeta knocking Goku out is the equivalent or someone randomly going up to a person and attacking them out of the blue.

[WittyUsername]

There are plenty of fights where someone dropped their guard and got owned, like Goku vs Raditz or Goku vs Ginyu. But those were still ongoing fights where only one fighter thought it was over.

This wasn't. Goku turned around to grab Geets a senzu because Vegeta had agreed to end the fight. He wasn't letting his guard down mid-fight, he was acting on the understanding that the fight was over. Vegeta exploiting that trust doesn't retroactively turn it into a win.

I would argue that Goku still should’ve remained on his guard, so the fact that he wasn’t would still mean Vegeta got the better of him.

There was no more fight between Goku and Vegeta, their next objective was to fight Majin Buu. However Vegeta idea was to fight alone. Vegeta didn't knock out Goku to win the match, he did it to fight Buu alone, there is nothing more to it than that.

I get that, but the fact that Vegeta managed to successfully exploit Goku’s overly trusting nature still means he got one over him, in my opinion.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I get that, but the fact that Vegeta managed to successfully exploit Goku’s overly trusting nature still means he got one over him, in my opinion.

That makes no sense. He could also get one over him by killing him in his sleep, it still doesn't mean he won, and it doesn't make him stronger, so it's pointless.
Even Vegeta doesn't see that as a win.

[DanielSSJ]

PhantomSaiyan post_id=1821769
That makes no sense. He could also get one over him by killing him in his sleep, it still doesn't mean he won, and it doesn't make him stronger, so it's pointless.
Even Vegeta doesn't see that as a win.

Exactly. It only matters if it matters to Vegeta. Like, Raditz basically pulls the same trick on Goku, but afterwards he stands on Goku's chest gloating about how a real warrior woud do anything in their power to win. Vegeta did consider the fight off and only knocked Goku out because he didn't want anyone else to take responsibility for his mess. Like, does Roshi gassing Tenshinhan in the Piccolo arc count as a win?

[WittyUsername]

Vegeta supposedly didn’t see the fight in the Saiyan saga as a win either, even though we all seem to agree it clearly was.

But fine, whatever. I don’t feel like continuing to argue about this.