Unpopular DB opinions

[PhantomSaiyan]

Vegeta supposedly didn’t see the fight in the Saiyan saga as a win either, even though we all seem to agree it clearly was.

But fine, whatever. I don’t feel like continuing to argue about this.

"Supposedly" is right, because he never states this.

After surviving Earth's battle, he isn't pissed because he "didn't win" againt Goku, he was pissed that he was pushed to his absolute limit for the first time in his life (which he sees as humiliation) and barely made it out alive after 3 other people got in his way.

These two fights are not even remotely comparable and you know it.

[WittyUsername]

Vegeta supposedly didn’t see the fight in the Saiyan saga as a win either, even though we all seem to agree it clearly was.

But fine, whatever. I don’t feel like continuing to argue about this.

"Supposedly" is right, because he never states this.

After surviving Earth's battle, he isn't pissed because he "didn't win" againt Goku, he was pissed that he was pushed to his absolute limit for the first time in his life and barely made it out alive after 3 other people got in his way.

Well then, that makes it weird that Vegeta and the fans would celebrate him “finally” beating Kakarot in SH.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Well then, that makes it weird that Vegeta and the fans would celebrate him “finally” beating Kakarot in SH.

I guess you'd have a point is character development wasn't a thing, and for some reason Vegeta was frozen in time at his Saiyan saga self and didn't have to witness Goku attaining every transformation before him and being stronger than him for decades lol
But we all know that's not the case, so...

[WittyUsername]

Well then, that makes it weird that Vegeta and the fans would celebrate him “finally” beating Kakarot in SH.

I guess you'd have a point is character development wasn't a thing, and for some reason Vegeta was frozen in time at his Saiyan saga self and didn't have to witness Goku attaining every transformation before him and being stronger than him for decades lol
But we all know that's not the case, so...

Yeah, no…

Vegeta in DBS managed to obtain God ki without performing the ritual, which is something Goku was unable to do and by the time SH took place, he had obtained his own unique transformation in the form of Ultra Ego. The idea of him being constantly behind Goku was hardly a thing by that point.

[DanielSSJ]

Well then, that makes it weird that Vegeta and the fans would celebrate him “finally” beating Kakarot in SH.

Probably because Vegeta hadn't acquired his obsession until Goku utterly surpassed him in the Freeza arc.

Yeah, no…

Vegeta in DBS managed to obtain God ki without performing the ritual, which is something Goku was unable to do and by the time SH took place, he had obtained his own unique transformation in the form of Ultra Ego. The idea of him being constantly behind Goku was hardly a thing by that point.

It still kinda was. Vegeta attaining Super Saiyan God without help is nice, but it doesn't actually put Vegeta over Goku or anything, and Whis makes a point to comment on how Vegeta's still slightly behind Goku in the same movie. In the next arc, Goku's Blue Kaioken completely blows Vegeta out of the water, and Vegeta doesn't find an answer for it until the T.O.P, which is a moot point since that's when Ultra Instinct becomes a thing. They're more consistently equal in the manga since Blue Kaioken isn't really a factor, but Goku still completes SSB an arc before Vegeta, and masters Ultra Instinct before Vegeta acquires Ego. They've been pretty much equals for the last two arcs, but Vegeta's consistently been playing catch-up for most of Super.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Yeah, no…

Vegeta in DBS managed to obtain God ki without performing the ritual, which is something Goku was unable to do and by the time SH took place, he had obtained his own unique transformation in the form of Ultra Ego. The idea of him being constantly behind Goku was hardly a thing by that point.

Yeah, yes...

When you're behind a dude for like decades, you're not gonna get over it in a week lol
And like DanielSSJ said, Vegeta is still playing catchup even in Super so... You're not gonna win this mate, your argument doesn't work

[WittyUsername]

Yeah, no…

Vegeta in DBS managed to obtain God ki without performing the ritual, which is something Goku was unable to do and by the time SH took place, he had obtained his own unique transformation in the form of Ultra Ego. The idea of him being constantly behind Goku was hardly a thing by that point.

Yeah, yes...

When you're behind a dude for like decades, you're not gonna get over it in a week lol
And like DanielSSJ said, Vegeta is still playing catchup even in Super so... You're not gonna win this mate, your argument doesn't work

You seem needlessly confrontational over this, but ok, whatever. I personally think it’s dumb that people would want to validate Vegeta’s petty inferiority complex, but you do you.

FYI, I’m pretty sure the events of DBS take place over more than just the course of a week…

[ABED]

"Vegeta obtained SSJ God without the ritual, unlike Goku" isn't a big flex. Neither knew that level even existed. Once they did, not only was Goku chosen to be the one to get it because he was the best candidate, Vegeta now knows what he can aim to achieve. Kuririn and Tenshinhan and Yamcha's ability to figure out the Kamehameha isn't as impressive as Goku figuring it out immediately. And Muten Roshi's time to develop the attack isn't diminished just because others figured it out. he originated it. They copied.

[super michael]

Goku was able to retain his SSG powers into his SSJ1 form, we know this since Beerus said that Goku power didn't decrease by reverting back to SSJ1 form. That in it self is incredible. Goku made his SSJ1 form stronger than Vegito.

Vegeta accomplishment is big also, he managed to rival Goku power in RoF by training with Whis. The gap between Goku and Vegeta was huge in BoG thanks to Goku doing the ritual and Vegeta closed it.

Goku managed to do the Kamehameha by seeing it once, but it wasn't perfect, he didn't perfect it until he battled Jackie Chun. Tenshinhan managed to do a complete and perfect Kamehameha on his first try.
Tenshinhan is one of the few fighters that knows the Mafuba, but never uses it at all in the manga. In the anime Tenshinhan failed to catch Piccolo Daimao and then never use it again.

[WittyUsername]

There seems to be a pretty consistent narrative throughout the Super era that Vegeta is in fact more talented than Goku and was simply being held back by his personal mentality, which he’s gotten better about, to the point where he’s the one doing meditation, while Goku apparently doesn’t know what that is because he’s a dumb-dumb.

I don’t know if that’s just Toriyama throwing Vegeta fans a bone or if it’s indicative of Toyatoro being a Vegeta fanboy, but Vegeta fans have consistently been eating pretty good since 2013 and him seemingly proving that he’s stronger than Goku in SH is one key example of that. Let’s also not forget Roshi’s remark in BoG about how Vegeta surpassed Goku prior to the latter becoming a Super Saiyan God, which he only became through the ritual.

[super michael]

There seems to be a pretty consistent narrative throughout the Super era that Vegeta is in fact more talented than Goku and was simply being held back by his personal mentality, which he’s gotten better about, to the point where he’s the one doing meditation, while Goku apparently doesn’t know what that is because he’s a dumb-dumb.

I don’t know if that’s just Toriyama throwing Vegeta fans a bone or if it’s indicative of Toyatoro being a Vegeta fanboy, but Vegeta fans have consistently been eating pretty good since 2013 and him seemingly proving that he’s stronger than Goku in SH is one key example of that. Let’s also not forget Roshi’s remark in BoG about how Vegeta surpassed Goku prior to the latter becoming a Super Saiyan God, which he only became through the ritual.

I think Toei is at fault for making Goku dumb at all cost. Toriyama shares in that fault, since he is involved in the movie. I doubt it has anything to do with being Vegeta fanboys.


Vegeta has surpassed Goku in being the better character and fighter.

[PhantomSaiyan]

You seem needlessly confrontational over this, but ok, whatever. I personally think it’s dumb that people would want to validate Vegeta’s petty inferiority complex, but you do you.

FYI, I’m pretty sure the events of DBS take place over more than just the course of a week…

I disagree on me being confrontational, sorry I gave you that impression, but it's wrong.

Still, "more than a couple of weeks" is still less time than the ten plus years I'm referring to. And again, Vegeta was playing catchup even over the course of those "more than a couple of weeks" of dbs, so yeah, your argument still doesn't work

[ABED]

I'm fine with Vegeta being the second lead and closer to an equal to Goku but it's still Goku's story at the end of the day. i find the whole Goku being a step ahead of Vegeta but the story these days saying AKSHULY, Vegeta is the more natural...

[super michael]

Before Vegeta wouldn't accept having a master and he wouldn't accept training with Goku, Vegeta was even willing to get possessed to get a power up. However that all changed in DBS when he evolved to be a good character. Now Vegeta is willing to learn from others and train with others. Vegeta is no longer focus on just raw strength like a amateur.

Sure Vegeta was behind Goku for a long time, but the fact that he caught up to Goku and surpassed him is impressive. Now Goku needs to evolve.

Maybe Goku should stop obsessing what Vegeta does and focus on his training. Goku shouldn't care how Vegeta trains and when he trains, Goku is not the boss.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I'm fine with Vegeta being the second lead and closer to an equal to Goku but it's still Goku's story at the end of the day. i find the whole Goku being a step ahead of Vegeta but the story these days saying AKSHULY, Vegeta is the more natural...

I guess it does make sense for Vegeta to be the more natural of the two, he was the one with the highest battle power to begin with.

The problem is that in after the Freeza saga, it kinda seemed like things had switched around and Vegeta became the hard working guy, and Goku became the naturally gifted fighter.

Now we're kinda back at where we were at in the Saiyan arc I guess. I always got the impression that the franchise can never decide who's the natural talent and who's the hard working one between the two, it's always changing depending somehow.
At least that's the impression I get

[ABED]

I'm fine with Vegeta being the second lead and closer to an equal to Goku but it's still Goku's story at the end of the day. i find the whole Goku being a step ahead of Vegeta but the story these days saying AKSHULY, Vegeta is the more natural...

I guess it does make sense for Vegeta to be the more natural of the two, he was the one with the highest battle power to begin with.

The problem is that in after the Freeza saga, it kinda seemed like things had switched around and Vegeta became the hard working guy, and Goku became the naturally gifted fighter.

Now we're kinda back at where we were at in the Saiyan arc I guess. I always got the impression that the franchise can never decide who's the natural talent and who's the hard working one between the two, it's always changing depending somehow.
At least that's the impression I get

Goku has always combined hard work and natural talent. Vegeta strikes me as the guy who things the best way to train is doing it more instead of understanding the value of training smarter.

[JulieYBM]

Vegeta being ahead of Goku makes more sense from a writing perspective because Goku is the main character and having his closest 'rival' being someone that he doesn't have a dominant lead over keeps Goku in the role of challenger.

This is why I'm a big fan of Broly, Orange, Beast, and Ultra Ego muddying the waters of who the strongest is. Let's givet Jiren, Hit, Caulifls, Kale and others all on that level, too!

[WittyUsername]

You seem needlessly confrontational over this, but ok, whatever. I personally think it’s dumb that people would want to validate Vegeta’s petty inferiority complex, but you do you.

FYI, I’m pretty sure the events of DBS take place over more than just the course of a week…

I disagree on me being confrontational, sorry I gave you that impression, but it's wrong.

Still, "more than a couple of weeks" is still less time than the ten plus years I'm referring to. And again, Vegeta was playing catchup even over the course of those "more than a couple of weeks" of dbs, so yeah, your argument still doesn't work

All I can say is that by the time of Super Hero, it’s been about three or so years since the events of Resurrection ‘F’. Fair enough, though.

[super michael]

I'm fine with Vegeta being the second lead and closer to an equal to Goku but it's still Goku's story at the end of the day. i find the whole Goku being a step ahead of Vegeta but the story these days saying AKSHULY, Vegeta is the more natural...

I guess it does make sense for Vegeta to be the more natural of the two, he was the one with the highest battle power to begin with.

The problem is that in after the Freeza saga, it kinda seemed like things had switched around and Vegeta became the hard working guy, and Goku became the naturally gifted fighter.

Now we're kinda back at where we were at in the Saiyan arc I guess. I always got the impression that the franchise can never decide who's the natural talent and who's the hard working one between the two, it's always changing depending somehow.
At least that's the impression I get

Goku learned from Master Roshi that resting is also essential to his growth and not just train all the time. In the Cell Saga Goku saw mastering SSJ1 would be the best choice, so they don't waste ki and make it feel natural like their base form. Basically while Vegeta focused on SSJ Grade 2, Goku focused on mastering a form that he already has.
Plus Goku was willing to train with Gohan, which benefitted both of them, while Vegeta and Trunks I doubt that they trained together. Vegeta didn't know Trunks unlocked SSJ Grade 3, they didn't give advice in their training.

Then in the Buu Saga Goku unlocked SSJ2 and SSJ3.


DBZ Goku trained smart, which is better than just simply training hard.

DBS Vegeta trains smart.

[WittyUsername]

By the way, I still can’t say I agree with the notion that Vegeta “deserves” to be better than Goku. Goku’s supposed to be the main character. If he’s meant to be outright inferior to his rival like Super keeps implying, then you might as well just make Vegeta the main character.