New-found love for the Freeza saga

[Kaboom]

I'm a REALLY fast typer so long as I'm not multi-tasking, and I can sometimes easily churn out pages and pages of text in a very economic period of time when I hit my stride. That record long post took me less than an hour.

Could you like, help me write my fanfic?

[DBZGokuSaiyan]

I'm a REALLY fast typer so long as I'm not multi-tasking, and I can sometimes easily churn out pages and pages of text in a very economic period of time when I hit my stride. That record long post took me less than an hour.

Could you like, help me write my fanfic?

I can! lol One time in school... we had this mini-project to like, write a skit... but my partners didn't do ANYTHING. I had to come up with the whole story... all of the lines... EVERYTHING! And it was like three pages long and only took me like 1 hour and 30 minutes to 2 hours. I felt like I rushed it... but my teacher loved it so much that she wanted me to present it to other Language Arts classes! I felt special.

[Xyex]

Was that a compliment, criticism, or merely an observation? I’m not being snarky in the least, I’m just asking for clarification.

Little bit compliment, little bit observation. XD You managed to make a lot of really good points without even mentioning what is, perhaps, the biggest moment of the entire series.

That’s a really interesting bit of trivia that I’ve never heard before. Thinking about it now, I remember things like Daimao’s throne and yeah you’re totally right. Even with Daimao though, it’s still a great looking and unique design. And within the terms of the plot, it totally fits that Daimao would unconsciously recall elements like that from his home culture. Toriyama’s editor was right about that one at least.

Yeah, it's been ages since I've seen that interview....

If I'm remembering it right it was something like the editors told him that going into space may not be best since it departed from what people thought of when they heard "Dragonball" so he should at least try to keep the look familiar. And he said he looked back over some of his old designs trying to figure out what to do to fit both 'alien' and 'familiar' and he saw the chair and such Daimaou had used and went with that.

It may have been an editor induced element but I love the way he decided to go with it. Adds a little extra touch to Daimou, having him subconciously influenced by his origins like that.

And that's one of the things I like about Toriyama. He can manage to make completely unplanned things seem like they were intended from the start. Not an easy feat to achieve and yet he does it on a regular basis.

Now THAT one I have heard. Always wondered how Toriyama would’ve originally handled Cell not attaining his Perfect form, seeing as how he’d already set up the whole Perfect form thing much earlier. It would seem rather awkward to set something up like that and not have it pay off somehow.

Yeah. It would have been an interesting twist. I would have loved to seen the way he went with it, instead of rushing him on to his Perfect Form like he did. Cell would have probably outclassed even the powered-up Vegeta in that scenario.

The only bad thing about it, IMO, is that Krillin would have likely destroyed 18 in that situation too. Hence him never reaching Perfection. Though, if it had still taken SSJ2 Gohan to kill him I can only imagine what the fandom would be saying about the power his Perfect Form would have had.

[Kid Trunks]

(Like how it was obvious in the Cell saga that Cell would become perfect. They're not going to mention his perfect form and not have him achieve it).

Actually, he wasn't going to. Toriyama really liked 2nd form Cell and had plans to end him there. But then his editor called it ugly and wanted him to change it.

Still though. Regardless of how the decision came about it still seems obvious he's going to get it.

[Velasa]

Kunzait? You are awesome, you know that? I loved the whole essay, especially the nameccian parts. I've always loved the Freezer saga deeply- I remember running excitedly with my brothers to the tv every day after school at 5:30 and just being glued to the screen... Oi. I still remember WOOTing my head off when Son -finally- hit ssj and started to beat the living hell out of Freezer. Amazing. The end fight was long, yes, but I don't think it compares to the horrible drudgery of (most of) the end of the Cell Games, which left me as an animator in writhing oh god make it stop pain. Occasional moments of awesome like ssj transformation and Pic freaking out on Son/leading the charge to save Gohan were drowned out by the three-episode-standing-still-with-one-horribly-drawn-attack moments.

Enough complaining- I love Freezer saga basically. Essay was awesome for elaborating on that and reminding me that I need to watch it all again once I get the last two, three dvds I'm missing.

But I wanna make a note on one part in particular first-

The whole Ki masking thing is played to great effect by Toriyama throughout, and he uses it to create some of the most nail biting situations in the whole series, like in perhaps the single best scene in the whole saga; the scene where Gohan and Kuririn are forced to sit by and watch helplessly as Freeza and his men terrorize (and murder) Dende’s whole village. This is IMO easily the most breathless moment in the whole manga/anime, and almost never again do we ever see villains who quite get to that level of pure slime. Excellent way to set up your main villains.

That scene was the second part of the series I ever saw (first was right when they land on Nameksei), and it's what pulled me into the show as deep as I am now. It still breaks my heart, especially those three young warriors, gods...

[djkalteraphine]

*Awesome post snip*

Couldn't agree more. Really good read, and you even brought up some of the things I forgot, but loved nonetheless. I would like to note, however, with Dragon Ball as a prerequisite for Z, that the SSj transformation is certainly the most dramatic scene in the series.

The complete and utter change in this sweet little boy and kind hearted man we've grown up with is pretty breath-taking. I would even say he was a bit frightening. His eyes have no laughter, no joy, and absolutely no pity. He's become exactly what Vegeta said a real Super Saiyajin is supposed to be; an equally awe and fear inspiring beast. None of the other power ups in the series can compare to that.

And still, when Freeza finally begs for the same forgiveness Son Goku has given all his other foes, (the exception being Tambourine - anyone else notice the pattern?) he reluctantly caves to the former tyrant's piteous plea. He saves him, but he doesn't forgive him. Freeza does not get Goku's kindness or, more importantly, his respect. Not at all the admiring "I can't let a guy like that go to waste!" he had for Piccolo or Vegeta. He's cold to the tyrant, but his deeper nature can't allow him to leave anyone - not even Freeza - for dead.

Well, we all know what happens next.

[Rocketman]

Well, we all know what happens next.

The Legendary Super Saiyan fails at destroying a being with barely a scrap of power left, who's cut in half and hit by his own energy blast combined with a 'one-handed Kamehameha', thus leaving the final destruction of the villain responsible for everything in the series up to that point up to a JRPG knockoff who has no relation at all to him?

[Mike D]

The kamehameha is yellow?

[JulieYBM]

The kamehameha is yellow?

In Sparking METEOR it is SSj (Mid) Son Gokû's ultimate attack, dubbed the 'Agrny Kame Hame Ha'.


*Gets back to one upping Kaboom with his own DBGT rewrite*

By the way dude, still waiting for an update on yours.

[Kendamu]

Well, we all know what happens next.

The Legendary Super Saiyan fails at destroying a being with barely a scrap of power left, who's cut in half and hit by his own energy blast combined with a 'one-handed Kamehameha', thus leaving the final destruction of the villain responsible for everything in the series up to that point up to a JRPG knockoff who has no relation at all to him?

I prefer to keep it short and say, "Freeza got turned into a measuring stick for Trunks who immediately got turned into a measuring stick for Son Goku."

[Snail]

*word count explosion

That was a very, very enjoyable read I thought. Agreed on almost every point you made. The themes and morals introduced up to the point of the end of the Freeza arc were incredibly more-than-decent.

It's a shame though, that many viewers would be turned off by the execution of the Namek/Freeza arc by the anime. The filler was a real drag, and extended the arc way too damned long. Inconsistent animation ( understandable, for the time of it's production ) making for portraying the setting as much more dull than it already was, and mutilating the character designs, and the attire of Freeza and co.

Basically, theres too much muck, and grime totally blinding the casual viewer/fan from realizing the depth of the arc. Mind you, these things don't bother me much, if at all anymore. However, I do think that it takes a viewer who has seen the majority of the Dragonball, or perhaps that has seen the latter part of the series (in manga or anime form) in order to completely dive into and understand the underlying greatness and depth as described very well by Kunzait_83.

[Onikage725]

I'll start with the Cell Saga complaint-
In my opinion, both sagas are fairly guilty of the complaints Herms had. To some degree or another, so are the other sagas in Z. Note that these are observations moreso than criticisms.
The first saga- it took how many "defeats" before Vegeta finally was defeated by Gohan's still-large ass falling on him? He went from being at the mercy of the threefold Kaio-ken to being able to rival its power, he pulled a fake moon out of his ass, he lost his tail and took a face full of Genki Dama and still came back swinging. Goku, prior to his being crushed, kept pulling levels of Kaio-ken out as needed.
The Buu Saga- do I really have to there? Buu was like the most ridiculous aspects of Freeza and Cell bundled into one. He drastically increased his power by splitting in two and absorbing himself. Yes I know the plot loosely supports this, but it's still ridiculous. For the protagonists- SSJ2 becomes common place (and even comparatively weak). Majin power up, Mystic power up, SSJ3, fusion, fused SSJ's going SSJ3 and ripping open dimensional barriers...

So really, it all just comes down to matters of personal preference.

As far as Gohan in the Cell Games... the initial complaint was with SSJ2 Gohan, but all of the issues that have been discussed since then have been about his pre-transformed personality. Were there any issues with him post-transformation?

And we need to consider Gohan in perspective. It's a little harsh when fans rip on him for not going all Kenshiro 24/7 when he's a kid until the Buu Saga. Everyone else had been at it for years. Goku's early adventures weren't as intense or horrific as what Gohan had to deal with, and Goku started much older. Gohan was thrust into this world at the age of 4. At 5 years old he had to tangle with a guy who was basically the bastard son of Darkseid and Hitler. He was saving lives before most of us were old enough to have fully come to grips with issues of mortality. But the second he acts like a kid in over his head, fans flip out on him for not being uber xcore like Vegeta.

As for the Cell Games themselves- Gohan didn't even think he was going to fight. He spent a year basically hanging out with his dad, a week chilling with friends and family, and went to the games thinking his father was the superior warrior. He was completely thrown when Goku put him in the ring. Piccolo put it best. While Goku was waiting for Gohan to unleash, Piccolo yelled at him. He told Goku that Gohan wasn't like him, that he was wondering why his father was just watching him suffer, more concerned about the fight than his life. He tell him that even if Gohan is the strongest, he's also just a child.

It's easy for us to sit, like Goku, on the sidelines and wonder why Gohan didn't just smite Cell. But if you look at it in context of the story, you should see a child who's father suddenly tells him "hey I'm taking a breather, do me a solid and go kill that guy for me."

And it isn't like issues of latent powers or fear of losing one's self are unique to this story. I've never seen a YYH fan bash Yusuke for failing to kill Toguro prior to being emotionally motivated. Or hell, what about the Hulk TV show? "Don't make me angry..." you know how it goes.

As for the main topic.... um... what Kunzait said. Like the Piccolo thread, you beat me to it again, ya bastard.

[gonz]

Ok, I don't think these criticisms of the Freeza saga are very valid, especially the complaint that Goku has no real connection to Freeza or that Freeza has no interesting backstory whatsoever. I think it was purposeful on Toriyama's part that Freeza's past was to remain a mystery as it creates a bigger sense of mystery as to Freeza's power and increases fear of the villain. Secondly, there's generally a larger sense of connection between Goku and Freeza than with Cell and Goku- all you need to know about Freeza is that he killed Goku's father and destroyed his home planet. With Cell, what did he even really do to affect Goku's life? As a matter of fact, he never even really did anything to affect Gohan until the destruction of Android 16. If anything, Cell was the prototypical "Villain of the Week", rather than Freeza, who actually fulfilled a large role in the in the story.

Of course, if we want to simplify everything to its base level and be overly negative, we could just say that the Freeza saga was a vehicle for Vegeta fans, the Cell saga was a vehicle for Trunks fans, the Buu saga existed solely to show off the "fusion" concept and that Goku was just along for the ride. I would tend to argue, though, that Goku never shined as bright as he did during the Freeza battle (with the Tenshinhan battle in DB rounding a close second).

[Thanos6]

Actually, I have no problem with Gohan acting like a kid. My problem is with him SUDDENLY acting like a kid when he didn't really act like that before. And don't think I forgive Goku, either. EVERYONE during the late Cell Saga was a moron.

[JulieYBM]

I'll start with the Cell Saga complaint-
In my opinion, both sagas are fairly guilty of the complaints Herms had. To some degree or another, so are the other sagas in Z. Note that these are observations moreso than criticisms.
The first saga- it took how many "defeats" before Vegeta finally was defeated by Gohan's still-large ass falling on him? He went from being at the mercy of the threefold Kaio-ken to being able to rival its power, he pulled a fake moon out of his ass, he lost his tail and took a face full of Genki Dama and still came back swinging. Goku, prior to his being crushed, kept pulling levels of Kaio-ken out as needed.
The Buu Saga- do I really have to there? Buu was like the most ridiculous aspects of Freeza and Cell bundled into one. He drastically increased his power by splitting in two and absorbing himself. Yes I know the plot loosely supports this, but it's still ridiculous. For the protagonists- SSJ2 becomes common place (and even comparatively weak). Majin power up, Mystic power up, SSJ3, fusion, fused SSJ's going SSJ3 and ripping open dimensional barriers...

So really, it all just comes down to matters of personal preference.

As far as Gohan in the Cell Games... the initial complaint was with SSJ2 Gohan, but all of the issues that have been discussed since then have been about his pre-transformed personality. Were there any issues with him post-transformation?

And we need to consider Gohan in perspective. It's a little harsh when fans rip on him for not going all Kenshiro 24/7 when he's a kid until the Buu Saga. Everyone else had been at it for years. Goku's early adventures weren't as intense or horrific as what Gohan had to deal with, and Goku started much older. Gohan was thrust into this world at the age of 4. At 5 years old he had to tangle with a guy who was basically the bastard son of Darkseid and Hitler. He was saving lives before most of us were old enough to have fully come to grips with issues of mortality. But the second he acts like a kid in over his head, fans flip out on him for not being uber xcore like Vegeta.

As for the Cell Games themselves- Gohan didn't even think he was going to fight. He spent a year basically hanging out with his dad, a week chilling with friends and family, and went to the games thinking his father was the superior warrior. He was completely thrown when Goku put him in the ring. Piccolo put it best. While Goku was waiting for Gohan to unleash, Piccolo yelled at him. He told Goku that Gohan wasn't like him, that he was wondering why his father was just watching him suffer, more concerned about the fight than his life. He tell him that even if Gohan is the strongest, he's also just a child.

It's easy for us to sit, like Goku, on the sidelines and wonder why Gohan didn't just smite Cell. But if you look at it in context of the story, you should see a child who's father suddenly tells him "hey I'm taking a breather, do me a solid and go kill that guy for me."

And it isn't like issues of latent powers or fear of losing one's self are unique to this story. I've never seen a YYH fan bash Yusuke for failing to kill Toguro prior to being emotionally motivated. Or hell, what about the Hulk TV show? "Don't make me angry..." you know how it goes.

As for the main topic.... um... what Kunzait said. Like the Piccolo thread, you beat me to it again, ya bastard.

I'm a little iffy on it. Gohan knows he's strong enough to take on Cell and he knows he has his old man's complete trust. Instead of being gracious for his old man's deep rooted trust he's sort of an [ungrateful] *** about it. At least, that's how I see it.

EDIT: Added word in bracket.

[Kaboom]

By the way dude, still waiting for an update on yours.

Okay, okay... Geez, I freaking hate writer's block.

[JulieYBM]

By the way dude, still waiting for an update on yours.

Okay, okay... Geez, I freaking hate writer's block.

The smiley was suppose to be received as me being silly, there's no real anger behind it.

[Jerseymilk]

By the way dude, still waiting for an update on yours.

Okay, okay... Geez, I freaking hate writer's block.

The smiley was suppose to be received as me being silly, there's no real anger behind it.

He's got a cold and just woke up.

[Onikage725]

I'm a little iffy on it. Gohan knows he's strong enough to take on Cell and he knows he has his old man's complete trust. Instead of being gracious for his old man's deep rooted trust he's sort of an [ungrateful] *** about it. At least, that's how I see it.

Heh, you make it sound like his dad asked him to pick up the groceries.
I'm sure if Goku had been soundly beaten by Cell, Gohan would have been the first one to jump into the ring. But Goku just backed off, refused senzu, and forced Gohan to take his place.

It just happened that Goku's mid-life "they can't rely on me forever" crisis hit at the same time as Gohan's long-built emotional "I really don't want to be doing this shit" baggage showed up.

[gonz]

Also, it kind of moots the point of Gohan being "special" enough to turn SSJ2 if Goku and Vegeta end up being able to do it just a few years later. At least with the Freeza saga, Toei backpedaled and went with Brolly as the "Legendary SSJ" and rectified the issue of SSJ-fest.