Questions That Cannot Be Answered

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

And of that, I'm referring to the two most infamous questions concerning the power of Broly. The first one is, were Goku and Gohan at the same level of power in Movie 8 as they were in the Cell Game, when fighting Cell himself?

Yes, they were around the same power as the Cell Games. Why? Well, Gohan still had the Piccolo uniform, minus the cape, and there was never ever a point where he was a SSJ with the cape until they exited the rosat. Many liek to say: Goku told Gohan to leave, so Goku's stronger. Well, no; Goku knew Broly was after him, and why would he have Gohan going against someone as dangerous as Broly, when the guy only wants Kakarot? Besides, Goku told Gohan to leave during round 2, but he certainly had no problem with him in the battle in round 1.

If Cell didn't keep suppressing his power, and just went straight to full-power outta the gate, would Goku allow Gohan to battle him? I doubt it. Piccolo also does better against Broly then USSJ Vegeta, who was out in one blow. Piccolo's obviously post rosat, and so are Goku & Gohan.

The second one is, was Gohan a Super Saiyan 2 in Movie 10? I know he didn't have any sparks around him, but mistakes such as that have been made in DBZ, pretty blatantly too. So..who wants to answer these unanswerable questions? And if you could, please explain your reply.

I'm sorta undecided in this one. Gohan was around the time where he was stated to be weaker as a kid, so we know that much. Gohan stated that he's "powered-up considerably" since the last battle. I believe that's automatically a reference to his SSJ2 capabilities. Many like to say: Gohan's reference just means he's more powerful, but if he's a weak MSSJ, and if you somehow believe Gohan is just a mid rosat SSJ, there's nothin considerable about his current power in comparison to the previous Gohan Broly battled if he's weaker due to not training.

Vegeta never had any SSJ2 aura against Kid Buu, but we know he was a SSJ2 against him; the manga shows this, and it would be obvious to consider, but still.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

[Rocketman]

Piccolo also does better against Broly then USSJ Vegeta, who was out in one blow. Piccolo's obviously post rosat, and so are Goku & Gohan.

I'm pretty sure that's more "Toei hates Vegeta" than any argument for character strength.

[SSj_Rambo]

Yes, they were around the same power as the Cell Games. Why? Well, Gohan still had the Piccolo uniform, minus the cape, and there was never ever a point where he was a SSJ with the cape until they exited the rosat. Many liek to say: Goku told Gohan to leave, so Goku's stronger. Well, no; Goku knew Broly was after him, and why would he have Gohan going against someone as dangerous as Broly, when the guy only wants Kakarot? Besides, Goku told Gohan to leave during round 2, but he certainly had no problem with him in the battle in round 1.

I personally disagree, since it is obvious that this did not happen in the normal anime time-line we have no way of knowing whether or not the ROSAT was even used in this time-line. On the whole Gohan's wearing a Piccolo outfit, when Gohan wore it for the Cell games it had nothing to do with anything that happened in the ROSAT (if anything the training in the ROSAT would have made him less likely to wear the Pic outfit since he had just spent a year "bonding" with his father), it was due to the training that they had together in the Saiya-jin Saga, so the fact that Gohan was wearing only means that in this time-line he did have some sort of bond with Piccolo, not that he had been in the ROSAT.

If Cell didn't keep suppressing his power, and just went straight to full-power outta the gate, would Goku allow Gohan to battle him? I doubt it. Piccolo also does better against Broly then USSJ Vegeta, who was out in one blow. Piccolo's obviously post rosat, and so are Goku & Gohan.

Vegeta was not an USSj in DBZ movie 8, and the fact that Broly defeated Vegeta faster than he defeated Piccolo could be due to the fact that Vegeta attacked Broly later in the fight than Piccolo and Broly's power kept getting stronger towards the end of the fight. It could also be due to the fact that since Vegeta was the Prince of the Saiya-jins and Broly obviously had something against Vegeta for that, Broly fought a little bit harder against Vegeta than against Piccolo. Granted none of this is 100% positive, Piccolo could have been stronger than Vegeta in DBZ movie 8, but there is also evidence that presents us with excuses for why Piccolo lasted longer.

And also, there is no evidence (to my knowledge) in DBZ movie 8 that says that any of the Z Senshi have been in the ROSAT.

The second one is, was Gohan a Super Saiyan 2 in Movie 10? I know he didn't have any sparks around him, but mistakes such as that have been made in DBZ, pretty blatantly too. So..who wants to answer these unanswerable questions? And if you could, please explain your reply.

I'm sorta undecided in this one. Gohan was around the time where he was stated to be weaker as a kid, so we know that much. Gohan stated that he's "powered-up considerably" since the last battle. I believe that's automatically a reference to his SSJ2 capabilities. Many like to say: Gohan's reference just means he's more powerful, but if he's a weak MSSJ, and if you somehow believe Gohan is just a mid rosat SSJ, there's nothin considerable about his current power in comparison to the previous Gohan Broly battled if he's weaker due to not training.

I just use the simple answer for this one: Gohan didn't have the electric bolts around him so (IMO) he wasn't a SSj2. Once again there is no evidence or reason to believe that Gohan had been in the ROSAT during the DBZ movie 10 time-line, especially since you can assume that DBZ movies 8 and 10 take place in the same time-line. There's also the fact that Gohan sees Goten go SSj in movie 10 and yet he is surprised to see Goten go SSj later in the anime (and several other reasons) proves that this movies takes place in a different time-line. All in all, we know that the movie take place in different times/universes so using details from the manga to explain anything in them is very sketchy.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I personally disagree, since it is obvious that this did not happen in the normal anime time-line we have no way of knowing whether or not the ROSAT was even used in this time-line. On the whole Gohan's wearing a Piccolo outfit, when Gohan wore it for the Cell games it had nothing to do with anything that happened in the ROSAT (if anything the training in the ROSAT would have made him less likely to wear the Pic outfit since he had just spent a year "bonding" with his father), it was due to the training that they had together in the Saiya-jin Saga, so the fact that Gohan was wearing only means that in this time-line he did have some sort of bond with Piccolo, not that he had been in the ROSAT.

We have no other way of debating on how powerful they are without the timeline, though. Anyone could just spout off anything without a base, and from what we see in the movie, there are things that show they're post rosat. I also think you missed my point about the uniform. Everytime we've seen Gohan, from when he first transformed, until he exited the rosat, he sported Saiyan armor. Once when Gohan exited the rosat, he received Piccolo's uniform, and that's about it.

Gohan also transformed into a SSJ in the rosat, and nowhere else. There could be other scenarios, but I'm going by what we see in the movie and the comparisons.

Vegeta was not an USSj in DBZ movie 8, and the fact that Broly defeated Vegeta faster than he defeated Piccolo could be due to the fact that Vegeta attacked Broly later in the fight than Piccolo and Broly's power kept getting stronger towards the end of the fight. It could also be due to the fact that since Vegeta was the Prince of the Saiya-jins and Broly obviously had something against Vegeta for that, Broly fought a little bit harder against Vegeta than against Piccolo. Granted none of this is 100% positive, Piccolo could have been stronger than Vegeta in DBZ movie 8, but there is also evidence that presents us with excuses for why Piccolo lasted longer.

Actually, Vegeta was a USSJ. Take a good look at Vegeta when he dashes to Broly to take him in; he has all of the characteristic of a USSJ, and he was never that bulky as a basic SSJ. Trunks also has long hair, which we only see when he exits the rosat too. Vegeta being the prince doesn't even matter, because Broly squeezes his face for a couple seconds, then he's finished. If he really wanted to pummel him, it would've been far worse then that.

And also, there is no evidence (to my knowledge) in DBZ movie 8 that says that any of the Z Senshi have been in the ROSAT.

There's a whole lot.

I just use the simple answer for this one: Gohan didn't have the electric bolts around him so (IMO) he wasn't a SSj2. Once again there is no evidence or reason to believe that Gohan had been in the ROSAT during the DBZ movie 10 time-line, especially since you can assume that DBZ movies 8 and 10 take place in the same time-line. There's also the fact that Gohan sees Goten go SSj in movie 10 and yet he is surprised to see Goten go SSj later in the anime (and several other reasons) proves that this movies takes place in a different time-line. All in all, we know that the movie take place in different times/universes so using details from the manga to explain anything in them is very sketchy.

When Gohan see's Goten go SSJ, it's during the beam struggle, which means, Gohan's reaction to Goten becoming SSJ just wouldn't matter at that point if he never saw it; or, he did see him use SSJ before.

As I said before: I, or anyone, could just say that Broly is around Android #16 or Imperfect Cell if we just go by the alternate timeline argument. It makes more sense, and is far better to use information from canon timeline and make comparisons.

Heck, I could say Goku was the only one who went to namek when Cooler arrives, and that Gohan & Krillin was on earth the entire time, since we have nothin that shows they did. That wouldn't make the least bit of sense, though.

[SSj_Rambo]

I personally disagree, since it is obvious that this did not happen in the normal anime time-line we have no way of knowing whether or not the ROSAT was even used in this time-line. On the whole Gohan's wearing a Piccolo outfit, when Gohan wore it for the Cell games it had nothing to do with anything that happened in the ROSAT (if anything the training in the ROSAT would have made him less likely to wear the Pic outfit since he had just spent a year "bonding" with his father), it was due to the training that they had together in the Saiya-jin Saga, so the fact that Gohan was wearing only means that in this time-line he did have some sort of bond with Piccolo, not that he had been in the ROSAT.

We have no other way of debating on how powerful they are without the timeline, though. Anyone could just spout off anything without a base, and from what we see in the movie, there are things that show they're post rosat. I also think you missed my point about the uniform. Everytime we've seen Gohan, from when he first transformed, until he exited the rosat, he sported Saiyan armor. Once Goku exited the rosat, he received Piccolo's uniform, and that's about it.

Except for the fact that Goku and Gohan are Super Saiya-jins and we know about how powerful they are in that form and we can use that to determine about how strong the others where based on those two.

Actually, Vegeta was a USSJ. Take a good look at Vegeta when he dashes to Broly to take him in; he has all of the characteristic of a USSJ, and he was never that bulky as a basic SSJ. Trunks also has long hair, which we only see when he exits the rosat too. Vegeta being the prince doesn't even matter, because Broly squeezes his face for a couple seconds, then he's finished. If he really wanted to pummel him, it would've been far worse then that.

I grant you that there is no solid evidence for whether or not Vegeta was an USSj, but I personally say he wasn't because that would have put him as stronger than Trunks, Goku, Gohan and Piccolo who all lasted longer than he did

And also, there is no evidence (to my knowledge) in DBZ movie 8 that says that any of the Z Senshi have been in the ROSAT.

There's a whole lot.

Like what? I honestly didn't see anything that any of the fighters had achieved that couldn't or wasn't achieved outside of the ROSAT. I know that there's no reason to be sure that they hadn't been in the ROSAT, and I'm not saying that they weren't, I'm just saying that Gohan was not a SSj2 and therefore in this time-line the ROSAT was not used to fight Cell as it had been in the anime.

*Note: Let's not drag this out too much, even though this topic has been made several times in the past let's not let are disagreements get this thread locked.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Except for the fact that Goku and Gohan are Super Saiya-jins and we know about how powerful they are in that form and we can use that to determine about how strong the others where based on those two.

Okay, but how do we know? All we know, is that they are all weaker then Broly by a lot. Many like to compare Broly to Cell, which is a fair comparison in my opinion.

I grant you that there is no solid evidence for whether or not Vegeta was an USSj, but I personally say he wasn't because that would have put him as stronger than Trunks, Goku, Gohan and Piccolo who all lasted longer than he did

Well, you said Broly's power increases much later are probably the reason why Vegeta was thrown to the side so easily. So it could be that. He just looks to bulky to be a regular SSJ, since we never see him like that at all, anywhere. It also could mean that Broly is just worlds beyond any of them, which is very likely.

Like what? I honestly didn't see anything that any of the fighters had achieved that couldn't or wasn't achieved outside of the ROSAT. I know that there's no reason to be sure that they hadn't been in the ROSAT, and I'm not saying that they weren't, I'm just saying that Gohan was not a SSj2 and therefore in this time-line the ROSAT was not used to fight Cell as it had been in the anime.

Unless Vegeta had been SSJ for a couple years, I doubt he would've discovered how to go up to USSJ without being in the rosat. It also explains why Trunks has long hair, and we never saw him with long hair until he exits. I'm not going to say it's 100% guaranteed that they were, but when there are things that point to them being through the rosat, I'm not going pretend it didn't take place. Not sayin you are, but just a general opinion.

*Note: Let's not drag this out too much, even though this topic has been made several times in the past let's not let are disagreements get this thread locked.

Well, okay. So far we've been disagreeing, while being mature, so I doubt it would be locked.

[SSj_Rambo]

We've pretty much taken it down to A) whether or not Vegeta was an USSj or not and B) who had what amount of power based on whether or not they had trained in the ROAST and for how long; which are all questions that have no definitive answers and can only be answered in a persons imagination, so I guess it's just up to personal opinion.

I personally feel that they had trained in the ROSAT and all of the Saiya-jins had achieved Super Saiya-jin and Piccolo had fused with Kami but no one was beyond those points, and that Goku was the strongest of them all, which is why he suggested that they all put their power into him (even though he had been pounded around more than anyone else) and why they all agreed.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Good! So we pretty much agree, right? I wonder where the disagreements were from?

[SSj_Rambo]

Good! So we pretty much agree, right? I wonder where the disagreements were from?

I can't even remember, I'm just pleased with myself for not participating in a thread-locking-flame-war and still having a thorough and informative discussion.

[G-Villain]

There's been several threads on these very topics lately, but since I'm in a nice mood...

The first one is, were Goku and Gohan at the same level of power in Movie 8 as they were in the Cell Game, when fighting Cell himself?

Nope, they were clearly not as powerful as their Cell Games selves. Several ways to tell...

1) While Gohan was a Super Saiyan, they were not in their constant, relaxed, "Full Power" SSj states. They stayed in base, transformed when they needed, were knocked down from the state if they took damage, etc...

2) Goku was more powerful than Gohan. This was not the case during the Cell Games. Stemming from that, if they had been at such a point, Goku would probably have tried to push Gohan to go SSj2 to win. Then again, Broly's focus was almost perpetually on Goku, so he might not have had time, opportunity, or focus to lend to that goal.

3) The two of them were, for all we could tell, no more or less powerful than Vegeta and Trunks were. Piccolo, too, was pretty much on the same level as all four of them. This would suggest more Androids saga-level of power. Or as some people have suggested, it's as if the Saiyans were plucked out of the Room of Spirit and Time halfway through their training. Everyone got beat up by Broly just as easy as anyone else. Nobody did any better against him until lending Goku some power, and even then he only barely overcame him.

The second one is, was Gohan a Super Saiyan 2 in Movie 10?

It's probably safe to assume that no, he wasn't. Not only based on the visual details, but also how well he did against Broly. NO Super Saiyan 2 is weaker than Broly. If Gohan were at that stage he would easily have ground Broly's face into the dirt. As for WHY he didn't, since we know he's capable of it at that point... well, Gohan's kinda dumb.

To answer, I'd like to comment on a few of the points that you have presented.

1) The conception that one has to retain SSj in the same fashion as Goku and Gohan did in order to be a MSSj is flawed, I think. Once one masters the state, then the ki consumed for the transformation and during it is minimized, meaning neutralized. So is Gohan still a MSSj in the Buu Arc, even though he doesn't retain the SSj state like he did before, in the Cell Game? For instance, because he returned to normal after defeating Cell, would you say that he is no longer a MSSj? I wouldn't. He is still one no matter the fact that he and Goku were in base during the happenings of Movie 8.

2) Where is it shown that Goku is more powerful than Gohan in Movie 8? Broly was so much stronger than any of them that you wouldn't be able to notice the difference between the Zet Senshi's powers. For instance, the fact that Vegeta was defeated in one attack, and Piccolo took numerous attacks without being felled, is testament to this. Piccolo is noticably weaker than Vegeta.

3) Piccolo couldn't have been Pre-RoSaT. He was showing that he had gained tantamount footing with the Zet Senshi in surviving Broly's attacks.

4) The possibility that Gohan was SSj2 in Movie 10 is based on much more than just a guess or claim alone. As one here has said, the animators forgot to add sparks onto SSj2 Vegeta when he fought Chibi Buu. Also, Goku was SSj2 in Movie 12 when fighting Fat Janemba [is able to be confirmed by the style of his hair], but they forgot to add the sparks when he was fighting in that form. Thirdly, I believe the same was done in Movie 13, but I'm actually not sure on that. And lastly, Goku transformed into a SSj2 in GT, when fighting Meta Rilldo; he threw a metal ball at Goku and he quickly ascended in order to vaporize the object. In all these cases, sparks had been forgotten to be a included.