If you were in Toriyama's shoes.....

[Musume]

I agree with a lot of the points made by Kunzait_83 (amazingly well-written post, I might add) -- especially the ones regarding Bulma and Vegeta, and the human cast of DBZ.

Here's my short list of nits and picks:

* Less Super Saiyans (possibly just Goku), no USSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3/etc
* Human senshi sucking less (they've been relegated to latching onto backs and blowing themselves up, cutting tails off oozaru, killing themselves to pin down a baddie, etc)
* More material/background on Freeza and the planets affected by his tyranny

I'm possibly the only person in the universe who calls themselves a fan of DBZ and doesn't like the concept of Super Saiyans. Not just the SSJ3 variation... the whole shebang, even the first time Goku went SSJ on Namek against Freeza. I'm not familiar with older shounen series, but seems to me that Toriyama set a dangerous precedent of transformations/power ups/levels (sort of like how Tolkien has overshadowed Western fantasy to the point where it's unusual if a story doesn't have 12 varieties of elf, dwarves, and orcs/goblins).

I would've found it more palatable if only Goku could attain it (and to hell with Broly), or had a bigger drawback or some kind of limitation/restriction, and didn't have various levels or grades (and especially not SSJ3 or SSJ4). At least he lampshaded it by having Kaioshin and Kibito's eyes popping out of their sockets all the time in the early part of the Buu arc.

Using the Naruto series as an example, I think Kishimoto made the right choice by having Naruto become increasingly chaotic/malevolent the more he relies on the power of the kyuubi. That increases the likelihood that he'll hurt or even kill a friend, defeating the purpose of relying on it in the first place. As a result his training has taken a different direction, opening up a lot more possibilities for his development, instead of inexoriably powering up to Ultra Super Kyuubijin 3-and-two-quarters.

That's my only major gripe. The rest of it's just preference. I thought that the Buu saga was pretty brilliantly written, since one of the least powerful named characters, Mr. Satan, turns out to be instrumental in defeating Kid Buu -- and in a refreshingly plausible way, as opposed to pulling a Deus Ex Machina out of left field. My favorite DBZ fanfiction, Vejiitasei Ascendant, basically makes Bulma the universe's savior. How's that grab you? =D

I agree with having only Gotenks go Super Saiyan, simply because that would have been better and made more sense, I don't even mind him going SSJ3, I just don't like that Goten and Trunks can go SSJ.

It may have been less jarring if Goten and Trunks were both a little older (around Gohan's age during the Cell saga) and had been toughened up by life-and-death situations, like their fathers. I think Toriyama wanted them to be young, though, because he was longing to get back into the genre he really loves: gag. Case in point? Piccolo and Gotenks.

[masenko]

I would have had the series end with Goku returning home to Earth after Namek's explosion. I always liked the idea of the final shot of DragonBall being one where Gohan sees his seemingly dead father walking towards him, after saving the universe from the greatest of evils.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Forgotten Hero]

A short event with no lead-up at the very very tail end defines the entire series?

What? If you are questioning my opinion, it's my opinion. I have every right to decide what I would do if I were in Toriyama's shoes.

[Dayspring]

1) Tenshinhan claimed he was going to take the highlights of Kaio's training in order to surpass them. I would have liked to see him use a "Shin-Kaioken" or Kaioken X50 and/or x100 as his response to the SSJ levels.

2) No "USSJ" bullshit. Straight to SSJ2 and SSJ3 since they have the same faults in regards to energy consumption, so Vegeta never bothered to learn it.

3) Gohan becoming SSJ in the three years training prior to the androids' arrival.

4) Instead of the 28th Budokai, I'd have Geezer-Goku agree to train Uub.

5) Goten and Trunks only reaching SSJ after their stint in the ROSAT.

6) Cold getting killed while attempting to transform instead of the weakling way he did.

7) It turns out that SSJ levels are all merely difficult transformations that any elite Saiyan can use. Goku defeats Buu by becoming the "true" SSJ of legend.

[Rocketman]

No. I said pre-SSJ vegeta, not some genaric measuring stick Toriyama created to show how much of a threat the Cyborgs were. And givin Vegita's I.Q., I'm sure any of the humans could beat him. It's not like they just stood there for the few days they were on Kaio's planet.....

Pre-SSJ Vegeta is the strongest being in the universe besides the Super Saiyan. Even with them using x10 Kaioken, he could kill the humans by taking his cock out and smacking them across the face with it.

They were prepping Gohan to be the strongest from the beginning of Z.

Right. That's why he's constantly outclassed by Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta and then fades into the background for the entire Android saga.

[Wojak]

No. I said pre-SSJ vegeta, not some genaric measuring stick Toriyama created to show how much of a threat the Cyborgs were. And givin Vegita's I.Q., I'm sure any of the humans could beat him. It's not like they just stood there for the few days they were on Kaio's planet.....

Pre-SSJ Vegeta is the strongest being in the universe besides the Super Saiyan. Even with them using x10 Kaioken, he could kill the humans by taking his cock out and smacking them across the face with it.

They were prepping Gohan to be the strongest from the beginning of Z.

Right. That's why he's constantly outclassed by Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta and then fades into the background for the entire Android saga.

I also think that a kaioken x10 Yamcha wouldn't put a scratch on a pre SSJ Vegeta, but saying "taking his cock out and smacking them across the face with it"? What are you, five?

And yes, Gohan wasn't supposed to be strong at all, because it's not Gohan that becomes strongest in the Cell saga, defeating Cell, and crushing the Cell Jr.s with single blows...

Ever heard of build-ups in a story? Just because of that Gohan wasn't the strongest, it doesn't mean that Toriyama didn't intend for him to become strongest later in the story.
Practically everyone were useless after the defeat of C19 and C20, so your theory...is fail. Gohan was then a non-SSJ kid, and as the story moved on, Gohan got useful as soon as he got his SSJ transformation.
Everyone got surprised of how Piccolo could even be on par with the Super Saiya-jins, which means that a non-SSJ is not worth jack on the battlefield.
And by my theory, Toriyama waited for the ROSAT to give Gohan his SSJ transformation.

I see the whole Gohan part as how a helpless kid finally becomes a strong "man" (even though he still is a kid), and Goku leaves his job on Earth to his son.

[Fossilgojir]

No. I said pre-SSJ vegeta, not some genaric measuring stick Toriyama created to show how much of a threat the Cyborgs were. And givin Vegita's I.Q., I'm sure any of the humans could beat him. It's not like they just stood there for the few days they were on Kaio's planet.....

Pre-SSJ Vegeta is the strongest being in the universe besides the Super Saiyan. Even with them using x10 Kaioken, he could kill the humans by taking his cock out and smacking them across the face with it.

No.
And besides, even if he was the strongest a Taiyoken + kaioken X10 Kamehameha to the back would end him with little trouble.

@Velasa
What's the plot?

[Rocketman]

And yes, Gohan wasn't supposed to be strong at all, because it's not Gohan that becomes strongest in the Cell saga, defeating Cell, and crushing the Cell Jr.s with single blows...

That's at the very end, like I said. Gohan being the strongest comes out of nowhere. He was weaker than third-form Freeza when he walked into the Time Chamber, gets one year of training, and is suddenly superior to everyone, possibly including Perfect Cell.

I see the whole Gohan part as how a helpless kid finally becomes a strong "man" (even though he still is a kid), and Goku leaves his job on Earth to his son.

Right. He becomes a strong man who whines and cries about having to fight, and then gives up and would've been dead without his daddy stepping in twice.

No.

Why not? Vegeta was stronger than third form Freeza when he died on Namek and probably kept up some kind of training after Freeza's death.

The humans would be down below 30,000, maaaybe 50,000s at best.

And besides, even if he was the strongest a Taiyoken + kaioken X10 Kamehameha to the back would end him with little trouble.

No it wouldn't. Vegeta has stupidly high endurance. He took a KKx4 Kamehameha+his own Galic Gun (to the back) and a Spirit Bomb (to the back), stood back up and kept kicking ass.

[Kid Trunks]

They were prepping Gohan to be the strongest from the beginning of Z.

Right. That's why he's constantly outclassed by Goku, Piccolo and Vegeta and then fades into the background for the entire Android saga.

Lets see:

- Surpasses Goku against Raditz
- Blows up the mountain when Piccolo throws him
- Piccolo mentions that Gohan may be his most difficult enemy
- Gohan's Masenko against Nappa (it didn't work, but it showed some that great anger released his powers)
- Guru mentions that Gohan has tremendous latent power
- Vegeta says to Freeza that Gohan has "powers in him he can't even dream of"
- Gohan beats the crap out of 2nd form Freeza for a little bit, Vegeta then says "Unbelievable, hes got so much power that he doesn't even know about until he snaps and loses his head"

Gohan then falls to the background for a little while, until Goku notices his hidden powers again in The Room Of Spirit And Time, and constantly says that he has a plan, or knows a secret about how to beat Cell.

You can counter all that if you want, but like I said, there was plenty of evidence that Gohan would be the most powerful. Especially in the anime. Toei put in a lot of filler moments about it. For example the Garlic Junior movie, the pre-Cell games filler, the Garlic Junior saga

[Rocketman]

You can counter all that if you want, but like I said, there was plenty of evidence that Gohan would be the most powerful.

Yeah, but that's because everyone stronger than him was supposed to die on Namek.

[Fossilgojir]

And besides, even if he was the strongest a Taiyoken + kaioken X10 Kamehameha to the back would end him with little trouble.

No it wouldn't. Vegeta has stupidly high endurance. He took a KKx4 Kamehameha+his own Galic Gun (to the back) and a Spirit Bomb (to the back), stood back up and kept kicking ass.

And was shot through the chest by krillin's kamehameha. Don't even try to say "Oh he lowerd his defences!" a X10 yamcha would have been much stronger than krillin. And what evidence says he was any stronger than Freeza's second?

[Wojak]

And besides, even if he was the strongest a Taiyoken + kaioken X10 Kamehameha to the back would end him with little trouble.

No it wouldn't. Vegeta has stupidly high endurance. He took a KKx4 Kamehameha+his own Galic Gun (to the back) and a Spirit Bomb (to the back), stood back up and kept kicking ass.

And was shot through the chest by krillin's kamehameha. Don't even try to say "Oh he lowerd his defences!" a X10 yamcha would have been much stronger than krillin. And what evidence says he was any stronger than Freeza's second?

Actually, Vegeta didn't lower his defences. He lowered his ki. As ki can be used as shields in Dragonball, so could it be used in forms of attack and defense. And he lowered his ki. a lot.
By that point of the series, Vegeta probably could, with a maximum powerlevel close to Freeza's first form (over 500,000) lower his powerlevel to at least 10,000.
With Krillin being at 15,000 at least, he could easily shoot a hole in Vegeta's stomach.

You can counter all that if you want, but like I said, there was plenty of evidence that Gohan would be the most powerful.

Yeah, but that's because everyone stronger than him was supposed to die on Namek.

Going by that DBZ would end at the Freeza saga, no, Gohan was not supposed to be the strongest, but going by the end of Cell and Buu saga, Gohan was first the strongest warrior of them all, and then in the Buu saga, the strongest unfused warrior of them all.
Going by DBZ, Gohan was the strongest in the end of 2 of the 4 last major sagas of DBZ (Saiyan saga, Namek saga, Android saga and Buu saga). In the other two first sagas Goku was the strongest.
The father had passed the throne of the most powerful to his son. As Toriyama intended.

EDIT: Found some more to reply on.

And yes, Gohan wasn't supposed to be strong at all, because it's not Gohan that becomes strongest in the Cell saga, defeating Cell, and crushing the Cell Jr.s with single blows...

That's at the very end, like I said. Gohan being the strongest comes out of nowhere. He was weaker than third-form Freeza when he walked into the Time Chamber, gets one year of training, and is suddenly superior to everyone, possibly including Perfect Cell.

Pretty much evidence of that Gohan was the strongest, right? And yes, at the very end, which doesn't matter as he still, theoretically, was the stongest in the end of Cell saga, and if the story would have ended then, he would be the strongest of DBZ.

I see the whole Gohan part as how a helpless kid finally becomes a strong "man" (even though he still is a kid), and Goku leaves his job on Earth to his son.

Right. He becomes a strong man who whines and cries about having to fight, and then gives up and would've been dead without his daddy stepping in twice.

Still, we are talking about a kid without the Saiyan characteristics. I too would not have wanted to fight. Hell, I would only be 12 (I don't remember his age). For being a kid, he is much more of a man than, like Vegeta against Freeza, when he cried of despair.
Of course Goku stepped in. He was the force guiding Gohan into the strongest in the first place. It would be odd not having Goku in there guiding Gohan to the final step into becoming the strongest warrior in the universe.

[Rocketman]

Going by DBZ, Gohan was the strongest in the end of 2 of the 4 last major sagas of DBZ (Saiyan saga, Namek saga, Android saga and Buu saga). In the other two first sagas Goku was the strongest.
The father had passed the throne of the most powerful to his son. As Toriyama intended.

Amazing that this "overarcing" plotline of 'son surpassing the father' didn't even start until after Mr. Toriyama got completely sick of Dragonball and was forced to keep plugging away at it.

Pretty much evidence of that Gohan was the strongest, right? And yes, at the very end, which doesn't matter as he still, theoretically, was the stongest in the end of Cell saga, and if the story would have ended then, he would be the strongest of DBZ.

I wasn't arguing that he wasn't the strongest. I was arguing that it's stupid that he is. It's like if Krillin had gotten some random-ass powerup and killed Freeza (I say this knowing some asshole is gonna nerdgasm over the humans; take it as an example of disruption of story, not as your "omg humaaannnnssssUNF get me a towel" complex).

Still, we are talking about a kid without the Saiyan characteristics.

That is why he shouldn't be the hero.

For being a kid, he is much more of a man than, like Vegeta against Freeza, when he cried of despair.

Vegeta was scared of death. Gohan was scared of throwing a punch.

Of course Goku stepped in. He was the force guiding Gohan into the strongest in the first place. It would be odd not having Goku in there guiding Gohan to the final step into becoming the strongest warrior in the universe.

Right. Just like Goku needed someone to hold his hand when he took on Tao/Piccolo/Vegeta/Ginyu Force/Freeza.

[SaiyaMel]

Have Goku and the other extent Saiyans go SSJ, but with the SSJ3 level being achieved only by Gotenks.

Goku staying dead after Cell. Main character/hero role being passed on from Goku to Gohan.

Some glimpses of the Saiyan language, of course (even minute hints I'd be happy with).

[Rocketman]

Main character/hero role being passed on from Goku to Gohan.

Why? Why do people want that sniveling little bitch to be the main character/hero?

[omegacwa]

Not to sound like an ass here, but I am almost 100% sure that Vegeta before his death on Namek was stronger than Second Form Freeza. Which would make him Stronger than Piccolo, which would make him the Strongest in the universe if Goku and Freeza were dead.

As for the Krillin's blast doing him in so he is obviously weak thing, that's a load of doo doo, the blast that Krillin delivered was unexpected, direct, and at close range. It's like the difference between laying on a bed of nails, as opposed to laying on one nail. Laying on a bed of nails, the impact is spread out, while laying on one nail, well, you are going to be in for a world of pain.

And also I agree fully that for some reason Vegeta has stupid high endurance. He can take a mega ton beating and still fight. There are numerous examples of this I just don't feel like naming them all.

And the only Arc were Vegeta is "Dumb" is the middle of the Cell Arc. He fights the Androids in a very smart way, trains smart, does not use USSJ2, tricks Cell into staying put for the Final Flash. The only really dumb thing he does is allow Cell to become perfect, but it was for a somewhat valid reason, Vegeta out matched Semi Cell like he was nothing, and the androids themselves weren't all that special, so like a true warrior Vegeta wanted a real fight. Was it a great idea, no, but it makes sense if you understand the mind of someone whose life is nothing but training and fighting, of course he wanted to test his limits.

I guess you can argue him becoming Majin as being "stupid" but again it was for a valid reason, he only had one shot at fighting his greatest rival, and since his life is about training and fighting, it makes sense to me. And who would have thought Buu would really be a threat, I mean look at the warriors that Babidi thought were tough, Pui Pui, Yakon, Dabura. Obviously Vegeta and Goku didn't think Buu would be anything, especially since they had both attained strength beyond that of SSJ2 Gohan in the Cell Arc.

[Fossilgojir]

I wasn't arguing that he wasn't the strongest. I was arguing that it's stupid that he is. It's like if Krillin had gotten some random-ass powerup and killed Freeza (I say this knowing some asshole is gonna nerdgasm over the humans; take it as an example of disruption of story, not as your "omg humaaannnnssssUNF get me a towel" complex).

Do you always become an emotional wreck when someone has a diffrent opinon?

[Kid Trunks]

You can counter all that if you want, but like I said, there was plenty of evidence that Gohan would be the most powerful.

Yeah, but that's because everyone stronger than him was supposed to die on Namek.

I know. But whether all that stuff that builds up Gohan to be the strongest just happened to be convenient for the later saga or not, it still happened, and backs up what I'm saying. But yeah, I get what your saying too.

[Fossilgojir]

I know. But whether all that stuff that builds up Gohan to be the strongest just happened to be convenient for the later saga or not, it still happened, and backs up what I'm saying. But yeah, I get what your saying too.

Didn't Toriyama even say the torch was originaly going to be past on in one of the Daizenshu?