Ki in the Dragon Ball Universe

[Bussani]

I have a few questions about these subjects. Or rather, I'd like to hear some opinions from other people.

What do you think ki is in Dragon Ball? I've always thought of it as the tangible energy inside a person, your stamina or whatever, influenced by your spirit, will and intention (hence why you can sense malice in a person's ki). But when I stop and think about it harder, where exactly does it come from? There's no way even Goku eats enough to account for the kind of energy he puts out. Kaio-ken doubles your energy for a moment, and I suppose Super Saiyajin forms could be said to do the same. And Cell is the worst of all, regenerating from practically nothing and ending up with more energy than he started with.

So what does everyone think? Does thermodynamics simply not exist in the Dragon Universe? Is ki exempt from it? Or does it actually come from somewhere, maybe absorbed from one's environment (which sounds logical, but then, isn't that what Genki Dama's for?)

There probably isn't a solid, 100% right answer, but I'd like to hear your theories.

[Velasa]

The power of a man's soul that cannot be broken. The magma of the heart!

(Ok. Now that I'm done geeking out- see Chakra. Spiritual power, the soul, the spirit's power.)

[Bussani]

The power of a man's soul that cannot be broken. The magma of the heart!

(Ok. Now that I'm done geeking out- see Chakra. Spiritual power, the soul, the spirit's power.)

I've never really embraced that sort of definition because it always seemed to be treated like your life-force, and I've never considered spirit to be life-force since you can't live on spirit. If that makes sense.

But thanks for your view. =D

[Velasa]

It's much more mystical than literal. More like mana than health or stamina.

We're also talking Eastern-religion physics for the soul, not Western-religion physics.

[Vekurotto]

What do you think ki is in Dragon Ball?

Ki is like the force in Star Wars. If you've seen the movies then you've seen that Jedi can sense things around them, they can point out places, people, and objects and it moves through them to give them "superhuman" abilities like Force Jump, Speed, grabbing far away objects, higher endurance levels.

Ki in Dragon Ball, and many other anime, is just like that. It is a force that you can control and makes you do things that you wouldn't be able to do if you didn't control it. Unlike Star Wars though where only Force Sensitive people can be force users, everybody has Ki in Dragon Ball.

Also since we're on the subject isn't it that the people that use Ki are they only ones that can see it?

[Herms]

Also since we're on the subject isn't it that the people that use Ki are they only ones that can see it?

Nope. The audience members at the Tenkaichi Budoukai can see the ki attacks the particpents used (for example, when Goten fires his "Kamekameha", someone in the audience remarks that it looks like he fired a rocket), Bulma could see Kame-sennin's Kamehameha (and freaked out like everyone else), everyone could see Cell's ki attacks, so Satan had to explain them away as "tricks", etc.

[Vekurotto]

Nope. The audience members at the Tenkaichi Budoukai can see the ki attacks the particpents used (for example, when Goten fires his "Kamekameha", someone in the audience remarks that it looks like he fired a rocket), Bulma could see Kame-sennin's Kamehameha (and freaked out like everyone else), everyone could see Cell's ki attacks, so Satan had to explain them away as "tricks", etc.

That is right. The reason I asked that was usually in anime, martial arts movies, and any other media where Ki is used the only people that see Ki are the ones that use it, and in real life you can't see Ki at all. I didn't know which stance Dragon Ball took and it seems like neither.

[Bussani]

What do you think ki is in Dragon Ball?

Ki is like the force in Star Wars. If you've seen the movies then you've seen that Jedi can sense things around them, they can point out places, people, and objects and it moves through them to give them "superhuman" abilities like Force Jump, Speed, grabbing far away objects, higher endurance levels.

Ki in Dragon Ball, and many other anime, is just like that. It is a force that you can control and makes you do things that you wouldn't be able to do if you didn't control it. Unlike Star Wars though where only Force Sensitive people can be force users, everybody has Ki in Dragon Ball.

Also since we're on the subject isn't it that the people that use Ki are they only ones that can see it?

Yeah, this seems logical to me. The next question is whether you consider the force to be something logical, tangible and measurable, or something completely different and spiritual. Going by the expanded Star Wars Universe, spiritual seems more likely, which goes with what Velasa said.

That is right. The reason I asked that was usually in anime, martial arts movies, and any other media where Ki is used the only people that see Ki are the ones that use it, and in real life you can't see Ki at all. I didn't know which stance Dragon Ball took and it seems like neither.

I get what you're saying. In the earlier Dragon Ball episodes, the 'aura' around a person was only visible to people who could sense it. Rather, it probably wasn't 'visible' at all, just a metaphor. But as the characters become stronger their auras are so powerful that they actually give off a visible light or glow, which people comment about later when talking about Super Saiyajin.

Actual ki attacks were always concentrated enough to be visible though I think, except for Kiai-shout type blasts which are more like a powerful gust.

[caejones]

Nooo! Damn computer troubles resulting in lateness!

I think Akira Toriyama just went off of the traditional concept of ki, and tweaked it a bit so that it fit into the context of a manga.
But since you asked for opinions...

I don't think of ki as some kind of"substance" or special form of energy or something quite quantifyable like that. (The force... hmm... a totally different subject, though related... but I've held off on more force-like stuffs in my own universes so haven't thought on it as much.).
I'm getting to where I think of ki as more of a system akin to math... there is no substance called ki any more than there is an object called 1, 19, pi, infinity, x+3i, Etc... but in the same way that Math is valuable for understanding and manipulating the universe, so too is ki.
I think it helps to discern spiritual Vs Physical; that is, the way I see it "spiritual" things are not just physical things in a "higher" or "supernatural" or "invisible" state... but something a bit more abstract (See the math analogy).
Ki seems like the bridge between the purely abstract and the purely physical... something that conceptualizes away the gap.
Ki is more a way of making heat comparable to flowing water. Soin a sense "energy" isn't a horrible translation, but there's a reason that it isn't perfect (which gets into the complexities of traditional views of ki and the "lifeforce" concept... which is kinda crutial, though I'm not sure how much to this post...).

So blah, the spiritual and physical stuff...
As for the ki manifestations in Dragonball... Electrolytes? Thermal Energy? Stigmata? Kick-awesome training? Saiyans being naturally gifted at channeling the body's various forms of energy?
I.E... Bodyheat. Metabolism. Control the rate, distribution, Etc of these, and who's to say one could't blow stuff up at a distance? Or at least create shockwaves in the air. Perhaps make things glw sorta?
And say, if someone had enough skill, and enough potential energy (saiyns eat a lot), they could combine these things to create something like the ki techniques we see in DB.
Although I suspect that DBZ-level ki attacks are still way out there in terms of reality... . But dangit, setting paper on fire is attainable!
(note: don't try this with sweaty palms. )

I have theories concerning various ki manifestations in DB/Z (SSJ, flight and whathaveyou), but... ... Meh. I don't want to piss off the "enjoy the series, nerd! Go have sex!" terds.

[Bussani]

Thanks for the reply caejones!

Your theory is interesting, and I actually kind of agree with it. To me, 'psychic' or 'spiritual' energy isn't something that's tangible, or exists. It's metaphysical, astral, it's potential, maybe as big as we make it. As you said, abstract.

Lately I'm starting to think of it in terms of psychic and psychokinetic, one completely a metaphor, the other a physical force of some sort coming from the metaphor.

To be honest, I don't think the Force from Star Wars is any different. In the prequels they talk about the little bacteria things in the blood, but these only connect you to the Force, they don't create it. It still seems to be a spiritual force that works outside of the normal universe.

The only reason I started thinking that none of this could be entirely physical is that it turns thermodynamics inside out. Even if it was body heat or manipulating your bio-electric field, there's no way one person could generate enough energy to blow up a planet, under normal circumstances. Even if your body was a nuclear power plant or something, the amount of fuel you'd have to take in is even more than Goku eats.

Edit: They seem to only be able to sense the ki once it manifests in or around the body though. Remember, the Androids don't have/emanate ki, even though at least 3 of them are Cyborgs rather than androids.

[caejones]

Yeah, can't argue with most of that. I like your assessment of "force-like" stuff; I think I steer away from it because like to have some kind of explanations for anything extraordinary I throw into things I write, and the more psionic the more specuation? Ur... Or maybe I'm wrong. ^_^. (I play around with multidimentional space too much, anyway...).

As for some of the feats that surpass the bounds of personal energy... I suppose interactions with one's environments can be used rather well? (Freeza dinn't blow up Namek out-right afte all).
Though I guess DB has this tradition of taking the extraordinary, and kicking it up out of proportion...
And then we get to all of the post-Freeza feats, which brng in more bizarre elements.
Although I guess I forgot about KameSen'nin blowing up the moon... Hmm... XD


[ uggh, so... my screenreader i acting weird and not letting me read by word or letter for some reason, so correcting typoes right now involves a lot of guess-work. . ]

[Bussani]

Ahh, you sound like me. I'm always in the process of planning stories I want to write, but I spend most of my time working out the mechanics of any fictional things involved. Even if I don't plan on going deeply into these mechanics, I want to have them thought out as a reference for myself, to avoid plot holes and inconsistencies.

The good thing about multi-dimensional space is it's an easy way to overcome some of the limitations of thermodynamics and energy conservation, which really only apply to a close system. If the universe is unlimited or has an infinite number of alternate planes or realities, then thermodynamics falls apart, since it's made to deal with finite systems and closed systems, if the universe isn't a closed system you can get away with a lot.

For instance, the ki Dragon Ball characters use might be cosmic ki coming from the universe itself, again similar to the Force. The fighter might just act as a conduit for the 'energy', and increasing your physical and mental/spiritual strength, as well as your actual capacity for this energy, can increase your overall power.

I'd be interested to hear about your theories about SSJ ki and stuff like that, caejones, so long as no one has any problem with us theorizing pointlessly. XP I enjoy it anyway.

[goodguy777]

Ki is the comprehensive power an individual has, like Battle Power, life force, and the like. Used primarily with a nuance that indicates Battle Power, you could say that the higher a person's ki is, the stronger they are. A boosted ki emanates from the body like an aura. It cannot be seen by eyes, but proficient warriors are able feel it.

http://magikarp46.dyndns.org/dragonball ... 7-044.html

Nooo! Damn computer troubles resulting in lateness!

I think Akira Toriyama just went off of the traditional concept of ki, and tweaked it a bit so that it fit into the context of a manga.
But since you asked for opinions...

I don't think of ki as some kind of"substance" or special form of energy or something quite quantifyable like that. (The force... hmm... a totally different subject, though related... but I've held off on more force-like stuffs in my own universes so haven't thought on it as much.).
I'm getting to where I think of ki as more of a system akin to math... there is no substance called ki any more than there is an object called 1, 19, pi, infinity, x+3i, Etc... but in the same way that Math is valuable for understanding and manipulating the universe, so too is ki.
I think it helps to discern spiritual Vs Physical; that is, the way I see it "spiritual" things are not just physical things in a "higher" or "supernatural" or "invisible" state... but something a bit more abstract (See the math analogy).
Ki seems like the bridge between the purely abstract and the purely physical... something that conceptualizes away the gap.
Ki is more a way of making heat comparable to flowing water. Soin a sense "energy" isn't a horrible translation, but there's a reason that it isn't perfect (which gets into the complexities of traditional views of ki and the "lifeforce" concept... which is kinda crutial, though I'm not sure how much to this post...).

So blah, the spiritual and physical stuff...
As for the ki manifestations in Dragonball... Electrolytes? Thermal Energy? Stigmata? Kick-awesome training? Saiyans being naturally gifted at channeling the body's various forms of energy?
I.E... Bodyheat. Metabolism. Control the rate, distribution, Etc of these, and who's to say one could't blow stuff up at a distance? Or at least create shockwaves in the air. Perhaps make things glw sorta?
And say, if someone had enough skill, and enough potential energy (saiyns eat a lot), they could combine these things to create something like the ki techniques we see in DB.
Although I suspect that DBZ-level ki attacks are still way out there in terms of reality... . But dangit, setting paper on fire is attainable!
(note: don't try this with sweaty palms. )

I have theories concerning various ki manifestations in DB/Z (SSJ, flight and whathaveyou), but... ... Meh. I don't want to piss off the "enjoy the series, nerd! Go have sex!" terds.

Were you the one who stated that area of science has 0% application in dragon ball? Anyway, I hope others who think like that wouldn't bother to reply in this thread.

[Onikage725]

Well, Lucas did partially base The Force on eastern principles like what we are talking about.

One difference between SW and DB application is that in DB it seems internal (a character powers up and accesses their own reserves) and in SW it is external (a character's level of power is based on how well they can draw on The Force itself).

Ki use-age in DB is just an over-the-top take on real world martial arts. I saw a tape once frame by frame of a guy about to chop through a pile of bricks at a tournament. As he started his motion, you could track each movement with each frame. But he goes from about halfway through the motion to completely through the bricks in the last two frames. That would be a prime example of ki use-age in real life. I also like the end of Forbidden Kingdom for describing this sort of thing. The kid is nervous and reluctant and getting beat on, and then the confidence from his training kicks in and he decides he's had enough. His entire posture and demeanor changes, and suddenly his attackers can't lay a finger on him. That would be like subconsciously powering up. Many people wouldn't attribute these things to "ki," but it's basically an argument of semantics in my opinion. The results are the same (the focus, the increase in ability), and how you define it is just personal preference.

I dunno if that helps?

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Kendamu]

Ki use-age in DB is just an over-the-top take on real world martial arts. I saw a tape once frame by frame of a guy about to chop through a pile of bricks at a tournament. As he started his motion, you could track each movement with each frame. But he goes from about halfway through the motion to completely through the bricks in the last two frames. That would be a prime example of ki use-age in real life. I also like the end of Forbidden Kingdom for describing this sort of thing. The kid is nervous and reluctant and getting beat on, and then the confidence from his training kicks in and he decides he's had enough. His entire posture and demeanor changes, and suddenly his attackers can't lay a finger on him. That would be like subconsciously powering up. Many people wouldn't attribute these things to "ki," but it's basically an argument of semantics in my opinion. The results are the same (the focus, the increase in ability), and how you define it is just personal preference.

Its stuff like this that makes me wish that this forum had Rep points or Kudos to give out.

[Bussani]

Well, Lucas did partially base The Force on eastern principles like what we are talking about.

One difference between SW and DB application is that in DB it seems internal (a character powers up and accesses their own reserves) and in SW it is external (a character's level of power is based on how well they can draw on The Force itself).

Ki use-age in DB is just an over-the-top take on real world martial arts. I saw a tape once frame by frame of a guy about to chop through a pile of bricks at a tournament. As he started his motion, you could track each movement with each frame. But he goes from about halfway through the motion to completely through the bricks in the last two frames. That would be a prime example of ki use-age in real life. I also like the end of Forbidden Kingdom for describing this sort of thing. The kid is nervous and reluctant and getting beat on, and then the confidence from his training kicks in and he decides he's had enough. His entire posture and demeanor changes, and suddenly his attackers can't lay a finger on him. That would be like subconsciously powering up. Many people wouldn't attribute these things to "ki," but it's basically an argument of semantics in my opinion. The results are the same (the focus, the increase in ability), and how you define it is just personal preference.

I dunno if that helps?

Yeah, I think you're right there. Like some of the others have said, it's not something necessarily quantifiable; it's more mind over matter, and thus the term 'spiritual energy' is fitting in a way.

It’s one of many reasons why I’m always dead-set against the characters being described in terms of being “superheroes”. A superhero story and a martial arts fighting story are two distinctly different schools of storytelling with their own separate stereotypes and conventions. Dragon Ball falls into the latter, not the former. Goku, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn are no more superheroes than Frost, Wind, and Cloud are in Storm Riders.

Well, it depends on your definition I guess, but the genre definitely isn't superhero one, even though the abilities of the characters are well into 'superhuman' territory.

Then again, Saiyaman... >_>

[Herms]

Well, it depends on your definition I guess, but the genre definitely isn't superhero one, even though the abilities of the characters are well into 'superhuman' territory.

Then again, Saiyaman... >_>

Saiyaman is inspired by Japanese "super sentai" heroes, who have their own various conventions and cliches. The same is true of the Ginyu Special-Squad (that is, the Ginyu tokusentai). Super sentai shows are produced by Toei, the same company who made all the DB anime, and according to Toriyama in his Daizenshuu 2 interview, his son was a big fan of them, which inspired him to create the Ginyu Special-Squad.

[Bussani]

Well, it depends on your definition I guess, but the genre definitely isn't superhero one, even though the abilities of the characters are well into 'superhuman' territory.

Then again, Saiyaman... >_>

Saiyaman is inspired by Japanese "super sentai" heroes, who have their own various conventions and cliches. The same is true of the Ginyu Special-Squad (that is, the Ginyu tokusentai). Super sentai shows are produced by Toei, the same company who made all the DB anime, and according to Toriyama in his Daizenshuu 2 interview, his son was a big fan of them, which inspired him to create the Ginyu Special-Squad.

Yeah, I'm a bit of a fan of Sentai and other tokusatsu stuff myself. The Ginyu Squad is one of the most obvious reference to them.

Speaking of Sentai, you just reminded me of Gekiranger, which was one of my favorites out of recent years. The way Geki (the type of ki they use) is portrayed in the series is pretty interesting when it comes to this subject.

As you'd expect different kinds of ki have different effects. Gekichopper could mold his ki into a super sharp form that could cut through pretty much anything, which you might compare to Kuririn's kienzan. And the main characters, once they overcame their own personal weakness (which seemed more mental than physical) were able to attain a powered up version of Geki called Kageki, similar to Super Saiyajin ki or maybe kaio-ken?

[Onikage725]

It’s one of many reasons why I’m always dead-set against the characters being described in terms of being “superheroes”. A superhero story and a martial arts fighting story are two distinctly different schools of storytelling with their own separate stereotypes and conventions. Dragon Ball falls into the latter, not the former. Goku, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn are no more superheroes than Frost, Wind, and Cloud are in Storm Riders.

I think it'd be fair to call them martial artist super heroes, at least in the Z arcs. We have martial artist comic characters, like Iron Fist, who we consider as such due to the mystical nature surrounding him. I wouldn't call Kuririn or Yamcha super heroes (just demigod-level martial artists), but everyone else seems to benefit from (and abuse) other modifiers. The Saiyans have Doomsday's ability to adapt to any major injury and come back tougher, natural strength and toughness, a natural affinity for ki useage that doesn't require martial arts training to harness (though training is certainly required to maximize potential) and the ability to transform when the going gets tough. They are natural therianthropes, and later on have the ability to upgrade their normal forms into "super" states. Namekians share the saiyan affinity for ki channelling, they can fuse naturally, have a "healing factor," can stretch out limbs, grow in a fashion similar to Hank Pym or Goliath, etc. Tenshinhan and Chaozu are the DB earth equivolent of mutants, who happen to be trained in martial arts by the second best master of the time. Supress everyone's ki, and these those two and the alien-characters would still have "super powers." And we have the Artificial Humans, who were built with generators allowing them to fly, project force blasts, and create force fields (or in some cases, drain power). And the scope of the aliens' powers is fantastic due to their natural abilities. The humans seem to top off around the general upper-level of what you'd expect from a crazy action shonen series. The others move beyond by abusing their alien physiology.

So I think it's a little of both.

Its stuff like this that makes me wish that this forum had Rep points or Kudos to give out.

Thank you! I wasn't sure if I was on track with that, so it's good to see that you guys got something out of it.