What are some members' views on copyright & piracy?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
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omegacwa
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Post by omegacwa » Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:48 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:In an age of Craigslist, Ebay, etc. it's difficult to justify bootlegs. I can get nearly any music CD domestically for $0.99, and movies are on sale constantly if you look in the right places. That being said, I have downloaded unlicensed/unreleased animes. As they become available, I do however buy them.

I'm not against sharing though. And I don't mean that in the "let me put the DragonBoxes on Bittorrent and let 50,000 people leech them," manner but more in the "Mike wants to make a video and needs X seconds/minutes of footage" way. To me, you can share what you have without being a pirate. It's just that many push that line too far.

Besides, my main thing with bootlegging is that the bootlegged copies are almost always inferior. People rip CD's wrong (skips, pops, artifacting), encode XviD/DivX copies terribly, etc. I'd rather pay a few bucks via one of the many affordable legitimate outlets and get a solid copy as well as support the continued support of such releases (hence why I bought the Viz Daizenshuu, despite having them all in Japanese).

-Corey
This is practically my same opinion, just said better.

To me, if something is unavailable or out of print besides a bootleg(whether it be downloading or buying from Chinatown shop), you don't really have a choice in the matter besides waiting for a release or re-release that might never come.

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Post by Wojak » Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:56 pm

I think that it's not good to judge eachother for their desicions, especially as this thread comes into how we take care of things is our private life, how we deal with our possessions or entertainment, and it should involve some delicacy.

Everyone has got their economy, and the term "being a poor college student" is vast, and I did not write my post to compare how much or how little someone manages to put away.
As it's too private, I cannot go into detail about my economical situation, but all I know is that even though I loan money, in the end of the year, I go into further debt, and can't even eat properly. And with that I mean not affording food.
All I know that I'll in a couple of years buy all these movies, so many that it will overrun the numbers of what I've downloaded.

And Super Ghost Kamikaze, ever heard of not buying the pig in the sack? As a consumer, I have the right to choose, and the theatrical trailers today are not really showing the movie itself.
Many times I've watched a trailer and thought that the movie seemed good, to find out that the only two minutes of the film that were watchable were those in the trailer. Nine bucks thrown out of the window.
Of course I taste the chocolate before I buy it (unless someone has recommended it).
And oh, yes, everyone has the right to entertainment, even I do. And how I deal with getting my entertainment, is nothing to get angry of, actuallty.
I pay for quality, and I want to look in the box before buying it.

EDIT: To add, I'm not pro downloading TV-series (season sets), since they are on TV for a low price. This also includes the Dragonball anime.
And to add to MajinVegetaXV, I never thought of that option, since I seldom shop from the Internet. Maybe it's worth a try.
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Post by Musume » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:09 pm

Well... :oops:

I only buy stuff if I really like it, and there's no way to know that I'll like something unless I've watched or read it before. I don't feel bad about viewing anime or manga online at all, especially if they're obscure series or one-shots that I never would have heard about otherwise (i.e., Memories). I feel worse about downloading them and storing them as files on my computer, but, eh. I've bought a couple of bootlegged DBZ movies in Chinatown when I was young and stupid (and before FUNimation got a hold of them), but I would never consider it now. It's bad enough that fans do it at their own expense for other fans, but bootlegging for profit is about as bad as it gets.

That said, I've bought quite a few things legally, in both Japanese and English (in regards to DBZ, I even have two of the daizenshuu in Japanese -- 4 and 6). One of my favorite places to stop by in NYC is Book Off (you just can't make up names like this). I can buy roughly three tanbouken (sp?) for the cost of one Viz volume.

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Post by Super 17 » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:19 pm

I get confused too with this subject. Is it wrong to watch episodes on youtube that have been uploaded by a person who bought original copies and if your not downloading them and just watching them to enjoy them?

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Post by Musume » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:25 pm

Super 17 wrote:I get confused too with this subject. Is it wrong to watch episodes on youtube that have been uploaded by a person who bought original copies and if your not downloading them and just watching them to enjoy them?
Technically, it is wrong.

Personally, I don't sweat it too much, especially if I would never consider buying the episodes without having seen them.

For example, I own Iria: Zeiram the Animation. I saw the series on the Sci-Fi channel many years ago and seeing the episodes made me want to buy them. Sampling/previewing them led me to buying them in the first place (if they hadn't been aired I never would have bought them because I wouldn't've even heard of it).

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Post by SSj_Rambo » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:43 pm

Super 17 wrote:I get confused too with this subject. Is it wrong to watch episodes on youtube that have been uploaded by a person who bought original copies and if your not downloading them and just watching them to enjoy them?
It's not illegal to watch them, just to upload or download them. But it is morally wrong, and still robs the licensing company of their deserved profits. If you just want to watch a part of an individual episode on YouTube or something than it's pretty much fine. But if your using streaming full episodes/movies as a way to watch the entire series than you're being a loser!

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Post by VegettoEX » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:18 pm

For the record, the vast majority of comments I'm seeing here are filled with completely made-up, non-existent, and horribly inaccurate "laws" and "rules" with personal justifications for those reasonings.

Just sayin'.
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Post by SSj_Rambo » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:22 pm

VegettoEX wrote:For the record, the vast majority of comments I'm seeing here are filled with completely made-up, non-existent, and horribly inaccurate "laws" and "rules" with personal justifications for those reasonings.
Was what I've said not true? I'm just curious because I want to know and that is just what I've been told on several occasions.

It's not that I'm trying to walk the line between legal and illegal, I just don't want to end up giving false information to someone else.

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Post by SonEric84 » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:55 pm

Musume wrote:
Super 17 wrote:I get confused too with this subject. Is it wrong to watch episodes on youtube that have been uploaded by a person who bought original copies and if your not downloading them and just watching them to enjoy them?
Technically, it is wrong.

Personally, I don't sweat it too much, especially if I would never consider buying the episodes without having seen them.

For example, I own Iria: Zeiram the Animation. I saw the series on the Sci-Fi channel many years ago and seeing the episodes made me want to buy them. Sampling/previewing them led me to buying them in the first place (if they hadn't been aired I never would have bought them because I wouldn't've even heard of it).


I saw Iria way back then too (and also bought it, along with both live action films. haha), one of the first anime I ever watched. Loved it. I have to admit, when it comes to music, I usually try before I buy, well, I used to anyway. I haven't done much downloading, but what I do download and enjoy, I have bought. If I don't like it, I delete it. With anime, I watched some of Haruhi Suzumiya before it was licensed here on youtube, and when it came out, I bought the whole series. So I dunno, I guess I feel like it's okay, depending on how you go about it...
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Post by Velasa » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:17 am

Aaah, this is a fun topic.

As an artist, as someone who makes things- the artist deserves money for their work. Even if the record companies are as broken as they seem it only hurts the artist when you don't buy it because then the record company drops them on their asses and -noone- gets to hear them anymore.

I have pretty much the same opinion on dvds as I do music- with some small exception. I have no problem with watching unlicensed anime in fansubs- up until it's licensed. Before then it's not available to us not in Japan in any way- but when they're ready to bring it over that's when it's time to stop. I'll typically watch one episode of something- if I like it I'll keep going and purchase it when it comes out (WOOTWOOT GURREN LAGAAN!). If I don't like that first episode, well then I stop watching it like I would have if it were available on TV.

I don't really like filesharing because it often gets abused. But lending actual material between friends is fine- it's like "hey, you'll like this book. Check it out". And if they like it they'll pick up their own and maybe others by the author. My older brother has a very large anime collection and I borrow things from him- and if I really like the show I'll buy it myself when I give it back.

Youtube is fine for watching shit you can't get anywhere else (terrible old 80's cartoons they refuse to make available, music videos you don't feel like wading through the shitfest of MTV to see once a year), but bad for watching things that you -can- buy but just don't feel like it.

Basically, what this lump of text means? The artist behind the work deserves to be paid for it. If something isn't commercially available/is impossible to find, DL is alright. If the company is dragging you through hell (hello, dub-only-anime-releases) and refuses to release the actual version, DL is fine. Fansubs are alright until the show's licensed, because before then it's like watching a show on TV (not available any other way) and after then it's just plain sniping it.

Basically, pay for what you own. The artist deserves it.
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Post by tinlunlau » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:36 am

omegacwa wrote:Isn't bootlegging in China legal? Like that's why some of the DB dvd's that come from there are high quality in real shrink wrap packaging with original art and so on?
You ARE aware that there are legitimate DVD/VCD releases of the Dragonball series in China, do you? Seriously, I'm sick of hearing westerners with their assumptions that everything from China, Hong Kong and Taiwan are bootlegs. And believe me, I was in Hong Kong last December and I've gone thru as many shops as I can. There are hardly any bootleg dvd shops available. It's sad to say but there are more bootleg dvd shops in Toronto than there are in Hong Kong.

I actually do work for Hong Kong DVD's. I translate for a Hong Kong home video company called Joy Sales who has made legit DVD releases for movies like Jackie Chan's "The Myth", "Rob-B-Hood", "Appleseed" and etc. And they've been making a lot of cuts due to all the rampant piracy. So much that they don't even want to tap into bluray market. I've tried to pester my friends to show me a bit of support and buy legit dvd releases for some of my work but they all end up buying bootleg copies. One stupid fucker even bought a bootleg copy of Jeff Lau's "A Chinese Tall Story" (which I've worked on the english subtitles for the film's dvd special features) right in front of me. And that pissed me off even more. That's why I can't even blame Joy Sales for delaying my pay after so damned long.

On an added note, I should be working on the added footnotes for the American DVD release of "The Stormriders" courtesy of Diskotek Media. They've announced that there will be a blu-ray release of the film as well. So please show support and keep me paid. Dammit!!!
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Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:32 am

My thoughts on piracy are pretty straightforward. For shows & movies and whatnot, if something already has a legit DVD release, particularly one that’s relatively easily found and purchasable, then of course piracy is dumb, not cool, and thoroughly pointless.

However… sometimes things simply aren’t that cut and dry. Some things out there do NOT have any sort of an official release, or at least an official release that’s easy to come by.

There’s tons, literally tons of anime out there (particularly much older, older titles) that have simply been out of print or are otherwise just flat out next to impossible to find, be it as imports or in a domestic release. I’m only pro “piracy” or file sharing in these sorts of extreme circumstances where there’s really no other feasible alternative.

A good non-anime or movie example is video games, or emulation. I’m a huge fan of MAME because I was a major arcade gamer as a kid growing up. It wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say that I spent far more video gaming time as a kid in arcades than I did at home with my consoles. Therefore there are a LOT of seriously obscure arcade titles that I otherwise would have no other means of playing outside of MAME, short of paying a former arcade operator/collector thousands upon thousands of dollars that I don’t have for the original cabinet.

Granted these days there are increasing legitimate alternatives for obtaining more popular arcade titles via arcade collection compilation games and xBox live arcade downloads, and I purchase such official re-releases eagerly as they come out to support old-school arcade gaming in today’s inexplicably anti-2D market as best I can… but these recent re-releases generally only cover major well known hits like Mortal Kombat and Fatal Fury and so forth. MAME & other forms of emulation are still pretty indispensable if you’re an arcade super-dork like me who’ll spend several hours playing something like Elevator Action 2 or The Revenge of Death Adder (aka obscure shit that’ll likely never see any sort of re-release in any capacity any time soon).

Anime especially can sometimes be exceedingly tough to get around downloading for someone like me. There’s literally dozens upon dozens of some of my favorite anime from my childhood that I literally have NO other means of obtaining short of file sharing, such as subtitled versions of Violence Jack & Devilman. Many of these titles were either discontinued eons upon eons ago (like Ruminko Takahashi’s under appreciated The Laughing Target) or never released in the U.S. at all (like Riki-Oh).

Silent Mobius represents a rare instance; I was a HUGE fan of the original theatrical movie of that series as a kid. It had a dubbed VHS release back in the early 90’s for a little while, but was discontinued shortly after. I lost my old copy during a move, and trying to buy it back proved a futile endeavor; it’s literally one of the most preposterously RARE VHS tapes you could ever attempt to track down, and on the next to impossible chance that one might come across a copy for sale, it usually would fetch astronomical triple digit asking prices from the seller. Even the Japanese import DVD is difficult to come across. So I had no other choice but to simply download a fansub of a Japanese DVD rip for a time.

Inexplicably, the movie is finally getting a U.S. DVD release after all these many, many long years. Why now all of a sudden, I don’t know; but it just came out a few days ago, and you can be damn certain I’ll be grabbing a copy within the next few weeks and deleting that fansub off my hard drive. Point being, if something I had no choice but to download later on gets a DVD release, I have no issues whatsoever with snapping up a legit copy and trashing my no longer of any use bootleg.

I guess my view on piracy can be boiled down as thus; it should only really be considered “piracy” when you’re taking something for free that other people are supposed to be making money off of. If it’s something old or obscure enough to the point where no company or creator is really selling or profiting off it any longer, then who exactly are you “stealing” from in downloading it?

At least that’s my take on it.
Velasa wrote:Basically, what this lump of text means? The artist behind the work deserves to be paid for it. If something isn't commercially available/is impossible to find, DL is alright. If the company is dragging you through hell (hello, dub-only-anime-releases) and refuses to release the actual version, DL is fine. Fansubs are alright until the show's licensed, because before then it's like watching a show on TV (not available any other way) and after then it's just plain sniping it.

Basically, pay for what you own. The artist deserves it.
And Velasa sums it up better than I ever could. 8)

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Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Post by Super Ghost Kamikaze » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:45 am

Kunzait_83 wrote: Silent Mobius represents a rare instance; I was a HUGE fan of the original theatrical movie of that series as a kid. It had a dubbed VHS release back in the early 90’s for a little while, but was discontinued shortly after. I lost my old copy during a move, and trying to buy it back proved a futile endeavor; it’s literally one of the most preposterously RARE VHS tapes you could ever attempt to track down, and on the next to impossible chance that one might come across a copy for sale, it usually would fetch astronomical triple digit asking prices from the seller. Even the Japanese import DVD is difficult to come across. So I had no other choice but to simply download a fansub of a Japanese DVD rip for a time.

Inexplicably, the movie is finally getting a U.S. DVD release after all these many, many long years. Why now all of a sudden, I don’t know; but it just came out a few days ago, and you can be damn certain I’ll be grabbing a copy within the next few weeks and deleting that fansub off my hard drive. Point being, if something I had no choice but to download later on gets a DVD release, I have no issues whatsoever with snapping up a legit copy and trashing my no longer of any use bootleg.
Silent Mobius was a film? Are we thinking of the same property? Because I remember seeing Silent Mobius as one of the excellent anime series on TechTV's "Anime Unleashed" block four/five years ago.

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Post by Super 17 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:49 am

SSj_Rambo wrote:
Super 17 wrote:I get confused too with this subject. Is it wrong to watch episodes on youtube that have been uploaded by a person who bought original copies and if your not downloading them and just watching them to enjoy them?
It's not illegal to watch them, just to upload or download them. But it is morally wrong, and still robs the licensing company of their deserved profits. If you just want to watch a part of an individual episode on YouTube or something than it's pretty much fine. But if your using streaming full episodes/movies as a way to watch the entire series than you're being a loser!
It's not wrong if your watching them on youtube with your (referring to me) own languague audio. My friends wanted me to watch Saint Seiya and since the english version did even make it through a quarter of finishing it and it had terrible music and acting as always, I had to watch it in the Mexican version which has no DVD releases and I couldn't watch in Japanese since the they never put subs for it. So I'm tecnically right on this one.

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Post by Kunzait_83 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:04 am

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:Silent Mobius was a film? Are we thinking of the same property? Because I remember seeing Silent Mobius as one of the excellent anime series on TechTV's "Anime Unleashed" block four/five years ago.
Ok kids, gather ‘round for a brief history lesson;

Silent Mobius was originally a manga dating back to the late 80’s. It was VERY popular amongst the manga geeks that I knew during the early 90’s. The first adaptation of said manga was a theatrical movie. It was fucking awesome, and one of the very first pieces of anime I’d ever seen (not quite the first, but among the first). Needless to say, I loved this movie to pieces as a kid, and had fallen head over heels in love/lust with Katsumi Liqueur. :P But that’s neither here nor there.

It was dubbed by Carl Macek’s Streamline Pictures label very shortly after it’s Japanese release, and even had a limited U.S. theatrical run in art house theatres double billed with Neo-Tokyo (a fucking ridiculously quality back to back feature if I may say so myself). The VHS however was out of print even before Streamline went the way of the Dodo.

Mobius as a franchise, while a long well known classic in Japan, may have well been utterly lost on current day U.S. anime fans for all time were it not for the late 90's TV series making it’s way to our shores. But basically, unless you grew up as a hardcore anime geek in the early 90’s (raises hand) you more than likely would have no possible way of knowing that there ever was a Mobius film loooooooong before the TV series.

But yes, somehow the movie has crawled up from the depths of obscurity and has just come out on DVD here in the U.S. as of September 2nd, and I URGE any fans of the TV series here on Daizex to go and pick up a copy ASAP, if for no other reason than the amazingly jaw dropping visuals. Animation-wise, the movie utterly wipes the floor with the TV series (in spite of being made a decade prior), doing FAR more justice to Kia Asamiya’s art style and designs than the TV series could ever hope to do under its comparatively limited budget.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Post by Super Ghost Kamikaze » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:11 am

Oooh! Looks like a have a new thing to put on my to-watch list. I thought the TV series was great, so I'd probably like the film.

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Post by JAPPO » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:06 am

I don't endorse piracy, I just think it's awesome.

As for copyright, depends on the situation. Like, for instance, Fox suing Warner Bros. over Watchmen is a dick move and I don't give a shit about the legality since Fox was sitting on the rights for years and did nothing with it. All they want is money.

As for music, we're all gonna die some day who cares if you give 10 bucks to a huge corporation that doesn't need it. I support indie music, though.
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Post by Velasa » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:16 am

JAPPO wrote:As for music, we're all gonna die some day who cares if you give 10 bucks to a huge corporation that doesn't need it. I support indie music, though.
I don't give a shit about the company. I give a shit about the band who's huge corperation will drop them like a rock because their album didn't sell enough because people were downloading instead of buying.

And goddamnit I like an actual cd. It sounds better than ripped crap and I like the little books with the album art/lyrics/other art.
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Post by Wojak » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:40 am

VegettoEX wrote:For the record, the vast majority of comments I'm seeing here are filled with completely made-up, non-existent, and horribly inaccurate "laws" and "rules" with personal justifications for those reasonings.

Just sayin'.
Of course there are laws about this matter that are found in every country.
If everyone followed those laws, there wouldn't be any discussion about bootlegging and piracy, really.
And it's our own personal justifications that make us not follow a law.
Inside us, we all have "laws", with personal views.

Like, as an example, what makes people not to punch eachother in the face all the time?
For some it's "it's morally wrong", for others it's "I don't want to go to hell" or "I don't wanna be punched back".
Why we do something is individual, and those are not "inaccurate rules". It's personal views. Maybe for you it is'nt, but not for the individual it is.

I don't know about those "made-up" laws, but I, personally, have spoken about what I believe to be right (not that I believe that you were speaking about me specifically, just so you know).

@ Velasa: That's why I always, if I have some money over (or if I get treated :wink:) try to visit concerts instead, as the artists usually get more money then.
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Post by Shenron » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:54 pm

I buy everything I can afford. I'm a huge videogame fan, so I don't own any back-up, except for the very rare and expensive games, like Radiant Silvergun for the Sega Saturn. Hell, I still buy original Genesis games !

I go to movie theaters when I know I will enjoy the movie. That's what I did with Dark Knight or Wall-E. And when I find cheap DVD's, I buy them.

But you know what ? I happen to run out of money. Yes, I have a job, and yes, I earn some money, but I'm very curious, and I can't afford everything I want to watch. I made the choice to always pay for my videogames, I can't do the same for everything else.

I spend a lot of money in cultural products. Everything I can, in fact. Books, games, movies, music. If I wanted to spend more money, my banker would be veeery mad at me. So, once in a while, I download a movie or anime series. And I feel no shame about it.
5 dollars a movie is kinda cheaper than my local theatre.
It costs 13 dollars in big theaters in France. That's horribly expensive.
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