Dabura

[goodguy777]

Seems to me that Future Trunks is in for a pretty nasty surprise in his timeline when Babidi comes knocking.

That ship's probably sailed, since Future Trunks' timeline is past the chronological equivolent of the Buu Saga.

Goku states Dabura was stronger than he thought, however he never felt 'super' Perfect Cell's ki.

Vegeta did, and he didn't seem to be all that impressed with Dabura.

This is kinda like choosing to side with the lesser of two retards for me, but I trust Goku's statements. Goku's spirit was advising Gohan at the end of the fight, so he could have felt Cell's ki.

Goku is referring to Perfect Cell not Super Perfect Cell.

[Onikage725]

Super Perfect Cell was completely destroyed by half-power SSJ2 Gohan. True, he had some help, but still, I doubt SPC is equal to SSJ2 Gohan at the Games.

I don't mean that Cell was as strong as Gohan. Only that he was SSJ2-powered. Kinda like how you could say Freeza at his best was comparable to a low-end SSJ1. Or that Fat Buu and Kid Buu were in the general realm of a SSJ3.

As for SSJ2 Vegeta, you're right, let's not go into that.

Actually, screw Vegeta. Gohan makes this point a bit better. Dabura is confirmed to be at least as strong as Cell, likely stronger (whether that is Perfect or Super Perfect is debatable, since all he says is "Cell"). Gohan, who we can assume did some training (though it wasn't a commitment like with Vegeta) stood against Dabura. At SSJ1. Rusty and unmotivated. And he was still capable of essentially fighting Dabura to a stand still. On those grounds, I doubt ascending past the Super Saiyan wall would even be necessary for a more dedicated warrior.

[Kid Trunks]

The fact that Goku just says Cell makes me think he just referring to Cell as a whole. He may not have said "Super Perfect Cell", but he also didn't say "Imperfect Cell", "Semi-Perfect" or "Perfect Cell". I think he just means Dabura is stronger than any form of Cell.

[omegacwa]

The fact that Goku just says Cell makes me think he just referring to Cell as a whole. He may not have said "Super Perfect Cell", but he also didn't say "Imperfect Cell", "Semi-Perfect" or "Perfect Cell". I think he just means Dabura is stronger than any form of Cell.

I agree with you. It's not like in the manga the Z Senshi referred to cell by his different forms. It was just, Cell, and then "Oh he attained his Perfect form". That was pretty much it. So when Goku says that Dabura is similar to Cell, I assume that he is referring to Perfect Cell, the version he fought at the Cell games.

As for the Vegeta SSJ2 thing. Some of you know my stand, I believe he was SSJ2, but I do agree that Toriyama left it very vague, and pretty much up to the individual to decide.

[Horgus]

Goku was strong enough to fight Perfect Cell on even footing until he tired out, And even came close to destroying him.

I must take contention with this.

When Goku and P. Cell fought, Cell was not using his full strength.

He went to full power when Gohan transformed.

(roughly) 'So what do you think, kid? This is me when I'm fighting for real'

*gets slammed in the gut*

Now, we don't know how strong full power Cell was in comparison to.. uh.. 'medium' power Cell, but it's clearly enough so that Goku would no longer be any match for him.

Gohan, who we can assume did some training (though it wasn't a commitment like with Vegeta) stood against Dabura. At SSJ1. Rusty and unmotivated. And he was still capable of essentially fighting Dabura to a stand still.

An argument can be made that Dabura was still holding back the vast majority of his power. In the anime, he clearly increases his power midway through the fight, however in the manga we see no such thing.

Before Gohan blasts the Buu ball, Dabura is asked about Gohan by Babidi, to which Dabura basically replies, 'him? yeah, I can defeat him.'

The way I see it: both were holding back. Gohan would most likely have won, but he'd probably end up getting his arm blown off and start crying about studying.

[Dayspring]

I doubt that Dabura was the devil. He was with Babidi for centuries, and Satan rules and/or oversees hell, right? So that means hell's residents have been running wild for a long time, right? WRONG!

Dabura rules the Demon Plane, not Hell.

Huge difference, I'd imagine. XD

Dabura's like the Overlord from Disgaea.

Actually there is. The Demon Plane is also known as "The Realm of Shadows" because it's located in the shadow of either the Universe or the entire Cosmos itself (the giant sun in the afterlife casts a shadow because of the Universe-or-Cosmos. This is where the Demon Realm is).

Devils are an actual race of (seemingly weak) beings indigenous to Hell itself. Akkuman is one of them, not Dabura.

[Onikage725]

I must take contention with this.

When Goku and P. Cell fought, Cell was not using his full strength.

He went to full power when Gohan transformed.

(roughly) 'So what do you think, kid? This is me when I'm fighting for real'

*gets slammed in the gut*

Now, we don't know how strong full power Cell was in comparison to.. uh.. 'medium' power Cell, but it's clearly enough so that Goku would no longer be any match for him.

Fair enough. I still stand on the ground of SSJ1 slacker Gohan nearly being a match for "stronger than Cell" Dabura meaning that the more dedicated Vegeta could probably have handled that fight at SSJ1 as well.

An argument can be made that Dabura was still holding back the vast majority of his power. In the anime, he clearly increases his power midway through the fight, however in the manga we see no such thing.

Before Gohan blasts the Buu ball, Dabura is asked about Gohan by Babidi, to which Dabura basically replies, 'him? yeah, I can defeat him.'

The way I see it: both were holding back. Gohan would most likely have won, but he'd probably end up getting his arm blown off and start crying about studying.

I disagree here. As cool as the anime version of the fight was, it also implies that Gohan could fight this "stronger than Cell" guy without transforming, and not be instantly wiped out.

So I don't really go by the notion of Dabura showing hidden power deeper than the hidden power he was already supposed to be showing.

As for Dabura's comments, they were based on his experience fighting Gohan, who we know wasn't at full power. So we can't take his opinion as 100% fact. If Gohan had gone lvl 2 against him, he would have had a good deal more trouble.

[Horgus]

Fair enough. I still stand on the ground of SSJ1 slacker Gohan nearly being a match for "stronger than Cell" Dabura meaning that the more dedicated Vegeta could probably have handled that fight at SSJ1 as well.

Oh, definitely. However, I am a card carrying member of the 'Vegeta made enormous gains to his basic SSJ form, and was capable of SSJ2 in limited amounts' fanclub. Which, of course, not everyone agrees with.

[Onikage725]

Oh, definitely. However, I am a card carrying member of the 'Vegeta made enormous gains to his basic SSJ form, and was capable of SSJ2 in limited amounts' fanclub. Which, of course, not everyone agrees with.

I 100% agree with you on the former and 100% disagree with you on the later. I still stand my ground that I don't want to start a "was Vegeta SSJ2?" debate, however.

[Xyex]

Oh, definitely. However, I am a card carrying member of the 'Vegeta made enormous gains to his basic SSJ form, and was capable of SSJ2 in limited amounts' fanclub. Which, of course, not everyone agrees with.

I 100% agree with you on the former and 100% disagree with you on the later. I still stand my ground that I don't want to start a "was Vegeta SSJ2?" debate.

Yeah, because you know you'd lose.

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that the entire battle is a mess. Gohan, who's not trained in 7 years and is weaker than he was at the Cell Games uses just SSJ and does fairly well against someone who's 'around the power of Cell'. I really don't see how SSJ Gohan could match either Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell's full powers after 7 years of getting weaker. And Super Perfect would kick his ass like no one's business. SSJ2, on the other hand... but everything indicates that, for some retarded reason, he didn't transform to level 2. Even though Vegeta and Goku were acting like Gohan was at his full strength.

Yeah... like I said, it's all a mess.

[JulieYBM]

It's odd. If we use the bios from Sparking METEOR's English version it states that Son Gohan never used SSj2 again after his fight with Kibito while it also states that SSj2 was what Vegeta used when he fought Kid Boo.

[Rocketman]

It's odd. If we use the bios from Sparking METEOR's English version it states that Son Gohan never used SSj2 again after his fight with Kibito while it also states that SSj2 was what Vegeta used when he fought Kid Boo.

Vegeta does use SSJ2 against Kid Buu.

[JulieYBM]

It's odd. If we use the bios from Sparking METEOR's English version it states that Son Gohan never used SSj2 again after his fight with Kibito while it also states that SSj2 was what Vegeta used when he fought Kid Boo.

Vegeta does use SSJ2 against Kid Buu.

Somehow that came out wrong. I just wanted to say that he could evidently use the form in response to previous post(s).

[Onikage725]

Yeah, because you know you'd lose.

Um, no.

Because we've done it to death in the past, and noone ever makes any headway, and the series doesn't flat out say either way.

And *that*, pal, is a fact. They DON'T say. So you can take that somewhere else. You're "theory" is no better than anyone elses. I'm not really sure why my decision to not pick a fight with people whom I have previously decided to just agree to disagree with makes you want to pick that fight...

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that the entire battle is a mess. Gohan, who's not trained in 7 years and is weaker than he was at the Cell Games uses just SSJ and does fairly well against someone who's 'around the power of Cell'. I really don't see how SSJ Gohan could match either Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell's full powers after 7 years of getting weaker. And Super Perfect would kick his ass like no one's business. SSJ2, on the other hand... but everything indicates that, for some retarded reason, he didn't transform to level 2. Even though Vegeta and Goku were acting like Gohan was at his full strength.

It's not entirely out of the question. If there's a quote that says Gohan did absolutely 0 training, then you're right. Otherwise, there's nothing to say that Gohan did no training whatsoever. Just that he slacked off. Compared to the training he had to undergo in the last 3 sagas, and the types of training the full-bloods dedicate themselves to, whatever maintence training he may have done would come off as slacking.

And when Vegeta says that Gohan is weaker while fighting Dabura then when he fought Cell, I generally take that at face value because Gohan isn't even lvl 2. Gohan only goes to that level with the right emotional trigger (I assume his ability to do so at the tournament could be attributed to his anger at what had just happened to Videl). Dabura didn't get a taste of that, so it isn't remotely surprising that Goku would see his son off into that fight with high hopes only to be disappointed.

I mean, Goku later gives Gohan the "get angry and nothing can stop you" pep talk, not the "get angry and you'll have a slightly better shot at taking that Dabura guy" pep talk.

Edit: I should clarify one thing about my comment on Gohan's possible training. I don't necessarily think Gohan needed SSJ2 in order to defeat Cell, at least not Perfect Cell. If he had applied himself in ANY way whatsoever, that probably would have been a very good fight before transformation. When he turned, he was so far beyond Cell's level that it was almost a joke. Likewise, Goku was confident in Gohan's victory without knowing about SSJ2, and he had supposedly sensed the depth of Cell's power.

So if FPSSJ Gohan was somewhere around Perfect Cell's power (arguable, but I'm just putting the idea out there based on the evidence above), then if he stayed at that level or improved some amount between sagas we can believe his fight with Dabura. And we can also believe that Vegeta, who's favorite pastime was spending days in the gravity chamber, could have well surpassed that level of power, 2nd level transformation or not.

[omegacwa]

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that the entire battle is a mess. Gohan, who's not trained in 7 years and is weaker than he was at the Cell Games uses just SSJ and does fairly well against someone who's 'around the power of Cell'. I really don't see how SSJ Gohan could match either Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell's full powers after 7 years of getting weaker. And Super Perfect would kick his ass like no one's business. SSJ2, on the other hand... but everything indicates that, for some retarded reason, he didn't transform to level 2. Even though Vegeta and Goku were acting like Gohan was at his full strength.

Yeah... like I said, it's all a mess.

I agree with this statement. Toriyama I think was just confused when he was writing the Buu saga cause he left far to many things up to interpretation.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It's funny how Gohan can't generate any anger to use SSJ2 against someone who petrified Piccolo, or Krillin for that matter.

I also think Vegeta was a SSJ2. Why? Vegeta stated himself, along with Goku, were stronger then Gohan. I don't think his SSJ form got powerful enough to take down a SSJ2, and Vegeta wouldn't be that stupid to believe that.

Gohan did train with Goten, so he wasn't completely out of training.

[Xyex]

Um, no.

Because we've done it to death in the past, and noone ever makes any headway, and the series doesn't flat out say either way.

And *that*, pal, is a fact. They DON'T say. So you can take that somewhere else. You're "theory" is no better than anyone elses. I'm not really sure why my decision to not pick a fight with people whom I have previously decided to just agree to disagree with makes you want to pick that fight...

I was joking. ^^' Hence the face. ^^'

It's not entirely out of the question. If there's a quote that says Gohan did absolutely 0 training, then you're right. Otherwise, there's nothing to say that Gohan did no training whatsoever. Just that he slacked off. Compared to the training he had to undergo in the last 3 sagas, and the types of training the full-bloods dedicate themselves to, whatever maintence training he may have done would come off as slacking.

And when Vegeta says that Gohan is weaker while fighting Dabura then when he fought Cell, I generally take that at face value because Gohan isn't even lvl 2.

I also take him at face value, but I have no reason to believe he's refering to SSJ2 Gohan. Why would he compare SSJ Gohan to SSJ2 Gohan? It's far more likely that what he means is that Gohan was stronger, as an SSJ, at the Cell Games, than he is during his fight with Dabura.

And... this could be a case of 'hearing it so often it's ingrained itself into my memory' but I do seem to remember there being something somewhere that says that Gohan as lost power in the last seven years. I agree that Gohan's full power was likely close to that of Perfect Cell's at the Cell Games (Goku could only estimate Cell's power so there's a bit of leeway, but he was quite confident so Gohan had to be pretty far up there) but seven years of little or no training is quite a long time.

And considering Chi-Chi had his nose the books I doubt he'd have found the time to train. Plus, that was the first time he'd seen Goten use SSJ and you would think, if he ever really trained, that he'd have trained with Goten before then and would have seen it already.

[Bussani]

And... this could be a case of 'hearing it so often it's ingrained itself into my memory' but I do seem to remember there being something somewhere that says that Gohan as lost power in the last seven years. I agree that Gohan's full power was likely close to that of Perfect Cell's at the Cell Games (Goku could only estimate Cell's power so there's a bit of leeway, but he was quite confident so Gohan had to be pretty far up there) but seven years of little or no training is quite a long time.

And considering Chi-Chi had his nose the books I doubt he'd have found the time to train. Plus, that was the first time he'd seen Goten use SSJ and you would think, if he ever really trained, that he'd have trained with Goten before then and would have seen it already.

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

And when Vegeta says that Gohan is weaker while fighting Dabura then when he fought Cell, I generally take that at face value because Gohan isn't even lvl 2.

Vegeta also said the same when Gohan used SSJ2 at the tourney. You would think he wouldn't say that if he was so much weaker then him.

[goodguy777]

It was stated by Goku:

MSSJ Gohan vs. Dabra = Gohan used up a lot of energy.

Teen-MSSJ Gohan vs. Perfect Cell = Gohan's energy hasn't gone down a bit.