Dabura

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:27 am

goodguy777 wrote:It was stated by Goku:

MSSJ Gohan vs. Dabra = Gohan used up a lot of energy.

Teen-MSSJ Gohan vs. Perfect Cell = Gohan's energy hasn't gone down a bit.

I'm not sure what the "M" in MSSJ means.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:37 am

Onikage725 wrote:I'm not sure what the "M" in MSSJ means.

Mega? Mystic? Messiah? Just throwing ideas out here.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:48 am

Onikage725 wrote: I'm not sure what the "M" in MSSJ means.

"Mastered" I think.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:29 pm

goodguy777 wrote:Teen-MSSJ Gohan vs. Perfect Cell = Gohan's energy hasn't gone down a bit.

Well this implies that Gohan (pre SSJ2) could have beaten Cell had he fought as Goku did, which is highly unlikely.

Cell was holding back the whole fight until Gohan transformed, and he was then outclassed severely.

If Dabura = Cell, then that shows that when Dabura fought SSJ Gohan, that Dabura was holding back the lion's share of his strength as well.

Toriyama Boss · Post by **Toriyama Boss** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:32 pm

In Daizenshuu 7 It states Dabura was fighting equally with *gasps* SUPA SAIYA-JIN 2 Gohan!

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:35 pm

Toriyama Boss wrote:In Daizenshuu 7 It states Dabura was fighting equally with *gasps* SUPA SAIYA-JIN 2 Gohan!

It's also wrong, because neither the anime or the manga indicate that he's SSJ2.

It'd be nice if they did, though, as it would make this a whole lot simplier.

Well this implies that Gohan (pre SSJ2) could have beaten Cell had he fought as Goku did, which is highly unlikely.

It's not only highly likely, it's quite probable too. Goku was counting on Gohan's full power to defeat Cell. He was not counting on SSJ2. They knew there was more beyond SSJ with the SSJU forms and with mastering it, but none of them were really expecting SSJ2. Not even Goku. Thus he believed that Gohan, as just an SSJ, could tackle Cell.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:47 pm

It's not only highly likely, it's quite probable too.

I'm afraid I said highly UNlikely.

Goku was counting on Gohan's full power to defeat Cell. He was not counting on SSJ2. They knew there was more beyond SSJ with the SSJU forms and with mastering it, but none of them were really expecting SSJ2. Not even Goku. Thus he believed that Gohan, as just an SSJ, could tackle Cell.

Goku thought Gohan could win when he assumed that when he fought Cell, Cell was using his full strength.

It was later shown that he was not. Gohan wouldn't have won against Cell at full power unless he transformed. Even Goku was surprised when Cell revealed he was holding back when they fought.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:48 pm

Xyex wrote:
Toriyama Boss wrote:In Daizenshuu 7 It states Dabura was fighting equally with *gasps* SUPA SAIYA-JIN 2 Gohan!
It's also wrong, because neither the anime or the manga indicate that he's SSJ2.

It'd be nice if they did, though, as it would make this a whole lot simplier.

It's useless to argue against the Daizenshuu with him.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:54 pm

I'm afraid I said highly UNlikely.

I know, I was countering you.

Goku thought Gohan could win when he assumed that when he fought Cell, Cell was using his full strength.

It was later shown that he was not. Gohan wouldn't have won against Cell at full power unless he transformed. Even Goku was surprised when Cell revealed he was holding back when they fought.

Eh, I don't know. Goku had a good idea that Cell was good deal stronger than him. He refused the Senzu, instead of taking it, which would have put him back up to full power and likely stronger than Cell was at that point. If not at least even with him.

So Goku must have had some idea of Cell's existant reserves of power And he still felt confident in Gohan's abilities. I think they had to be at least close. At least as Goku was with the supressed Cell, if not a little better. And that's just Gohan's 'natural' level. I don't think Goku really got a chance to see 'pissed Gohan' after the Raditz incident. So I think a ticked off SSJ Gohan firing a Masenko or Kamehameha could have decked and killed Perfect Cell, even with him at full power.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:05 pm

Xyex wrote:So Goku must have had some idea of Cell's existant reserves of power And he still felt confident in Gohan's abilities..

He wasn't, actually. His whole plan was to throw Gohan in and let Cell beat on him until Gohan got mad. He knew 'relaxed' Gohan couldn't beat Cell.

Sure, Goku wasn't expecting SSJ2, but he was banking on Gohan's RAGE powerup.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:06 pm

Eh, I don't know. Goku had a good idea that Cell was good deal stronger than him. He refused the Senzu, instead of taking it, which would have put him back up to full power and likely stronger than Cell was at that point. If not at least even with him.

If Goku believed Cell was holding back beforehand, why would he give Cell a senzu?

In my opinion, the reason he gave Cell the Senzu is because of a major miscalculation on his part. Even Piccolo calls him out on it later.

Goku had to have believed Cell (wrongly) was using his full power, and that he only lost due to differences in stamina (hence Cell was holding back).

If Goku knew beforehand that Cell was stronger than him, why would he ask for a Senzu later to jump back in the fight?

So basically: I think Goku had no idea of the extent of Cell's full power. He knew Gohan was strong, and was potentially 'hiding' a grand power, but didn't know if it would beat Cell or not, there's no way he could know.

Toriyama Boss · Post by **Toriyama Boss** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:19 pm

Xyex wrote:It's also wrong, because neither the anime or the manga indicate that he's SSJ2.

It'd be nice if they did, though, as it would make this a whole lot simplier.

Sigh, Hence the reason for the Daizenshuu, to give you info not stated in the series.

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:It's useless to argue against the Daizenshuu with him.

Yes, only folly argues against sanctioned data.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:00 pm

Toriyama Boss wrote:Sigh, Hence the reason for the Daizenshuu, to give you info not stated in the series.

SSJ2 always has lightning bolts in the manga.
Gohan has no lightning bolts.
Gohan is not SSJ2.

If the daizenshuu says he is, then the daizenshuu is wrong.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:01 pm

Toriyama Boss wrote:
Xyex wrote:It's also wrong, because neither the anime or the manga indicate that he's SSJ2.

It'd be nice if they did, though, as it would make this a whole lot simplier.
Sigh, Hence the reason for the Daizenshuu, to give you info not stated in the series.

This isn't matter of stating something that wasn't stated. This is a matter of contradiction. Neither the anime or the manga show Gohan fighting at SSJ2. The lightning is fully absent during the battles. Thus, he is not SSJ2. The individual working on that section probably just took the "stronger than Cell" comment and assumed that Gohan was SSJ2 at that point. And Toriyama either didn't catch it (cause he didn't look or didn't remember himself) or just didn't care.

Toriyama Boss · Post by **Toriyama Boss** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:33 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Toriyama Boss wrote:Sigh, Hence the reason for the Daizenshuu, to give you info not stated in the series.
SSJ2 always has lightning bolts in the manga.
Gohan has no lightning bolts.
Gohan is not SSJ2.

If the daizenshuu says he is, then the daizenshuu is wrong.

This isn't matter of stating something that wasn't stated. This is a matter of contradiction. Neither the anime or the manga show Gohan fighting at SSJ2. The lightning is fully absent during the battles. Thus, he is not SSJ2. The individual working on that section probably just took the "stronger than Cell" comment and assumed that Gohan was SSJ2 at that point. And Toriyama either didn't catch it (cause he didn't look or didn't remember himself) or just didn't care.

The Daizenshuu was made by Toriyama's people they know better than both of you.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:52 pm

Toriyama Boss wrote:The Daizenshuu was made by Toriyama's people they know better than both of you.

No they don't. "Goku was 3,000,000, 100% Freeza was 120,000,000" proves that.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:54 pm

Toriyama Boss wrote:The Daizenshuu was made by Toriyama's people they know better than both of you.

The Daizenshuu were created by human beings. Human beings get complacent and/or make mistakes. Like mislabeling a picture of Freeza's third form as his second.

Like it or not, about this, the Daizenshuu is wrong.

Toriyama Boss · Post by **Toriyama Boss** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:59 pm

K....

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:36 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Toriyama Boss wrote:The Daizenshuu was made by Toriyama's people they know better than both of you.
No they don't. "Goku was 3,000,000, 100% Freeza was 120,000,000" proves that.

Actually that one works. SSJ is stated to be 50x stronger than its normal form. The manga explains that Goku pre-kaioken is stronger than Vegeta, who is stronger Third Form Freeza, who is stronger than Piccolo, who has a PL around 1,000,000.

Meanwhile, Freeza at 100% is 2x as powerful as Goku x 20 kaiokens (or 60 million). Kaioken x20 drains Goku, so he goes back down to 3 mil. SSJ Goku = 3 mil x50 = 150 mil.

Would I prefer it if they used ten thousand and hundred hundred thousand incriments instead of millions? Yes. But as has been proven many times before, SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza both can't have PLs beneath 40 million each.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:44 pm

I don't even think the powers being in the millions at that point is much of an issue. At first I thought the idea of SSJ Goku being more then 6,000,000 was stupid, but that was when I didn't know much.

Anyway, Gohan was a SSJ, end of story. Dabura was likely being compared to the powered-up Cell Goku fought, who MSSJ Kid Gohan was stronger then. It also explains why Babidi was complaining about the damage, which an enemy around Super Perfect Cell should be more then capable of had he been that strong.