MSSJ or SSJ2

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:32 pm

Rocketman wrote: But Gohan can't go Super Saiyan after he becomes 'Mystic'.

Wasn't it explained that Gohan could go Super Saiyan while "mystic" but he just wouldn't need to because his power was already at max?

Gozar · Post by **Gozar** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:44 pm

Gohan was NOT SSJ2. This is one place where Toriyama did not screw up. He was always consistent with the lightning. Lightning within the Aura is the dead give away and he never has the lightning in any Manga Panel.

Take note of one of his lines before Buu's awakening...When he's trying to gain the confidence to fight and he remembers what Goku said...

As Gohan powers up he thinks in his mind

"But I can't be like I was back then"

And then only powers up to SSJ1...It appears that Gohan's lack of fighting at SSJ2 is due to him fearing becoming arrogant like he did against Cell.

SSJ2bardock wrote:Wasn't it explained that Gohan could go Super Saiyan while "mystic" but he just wouldn't need to because his power was already at max?

No, the Elder Kaio said that his hidden powers now fire up just like SSJ. In other words, Gohan's initial awakening of his new powers to bring them to the surface is accessed just like going SSJ. Then after that his power is always on the surface just like a Base Form. There's no need for transforming anymore because it will simply waste energy.

disturbed001 · Post by **disturbed001** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:54 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:
Rocketman wrote: But Gohan can't go Super Saiyan after he becomes 'Mystic'.
Wasn't it explained that Gohan could go Super Saiyan while "mystic" but he just wouldn't need to because his power was already at max?

I thought it was because this power would be way too much and might destroy worlds?

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:07 pm

disturbed001 wrote:I thought it was because this power would be way too much and might destroy worlds?

No, not at all. He no longer goes Super Saiyan because he no longer HAS Super Saiyan. The "mystic" powerup from Old Kaio IS his "Super Saiyan" now. It essentially replaced it, thanks to the way the ritual boosted, rearranged, and refocused his power. All he was granted as a Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, and more, is now neatly packed into his base form.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:35 pm

Exactly. The Kaiôshin told him to power up like when he transforms into a Super Saiyan, and he just went into his "ultimate" state. It's not that transforming would be a waste of energy or time, it wouldn't destroy the world, it just wasn't there.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:51 pm

Yeah, didn't Old Kaioshin directly instruct him to become a Super Saiyan? He couldn't. Instead he accessed his "ultimate" power.

And no, Gohan wasn't SSJ2 against Dabura. I frankly don't even know how he pulled it off against Kibito (maybe residual rage from what happened to Videl). But even then Vegeta said he was underpowered.

Between his pacifistic mindset, lack of training, and unfamiliarity with the form, SSJ2 wasn't something Gohan was comfortable with. Gohan choosing FPSSJ (which he was 100% comfortable with) over SSJ2 would probably be something similar to Goku starting a fight at SSJ2 and keeping SSJ3 in reserve.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:22 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Exactly. The Kaiôshin told him to power up like when he transforms into a Super Saiyan, and he just went into his "ultimate" state. It's not that transforming would be a waste of energy or time, it wouldn't destroy the world, it just wasn't there.

We don't know for sure that it's completely gone.

It was always my thought that it would merely be more difficult than normal to go SSJ, not impossible. However, it would be pointless since the nature of the new power up makes Gohan as strong as he'll ever possibly become, while in SSJ3 on top of it. In other words, why bother trying to exert himself to achieve and maintain SSJ levels since he's already stronger than those levels without exerting himself?

It's like kaiokens. It's not that Goku can no longer use kaiokens anymore now that he can use SSJ, it's just there's no more point since they're not only weaker, but cause greater strain on his body.

For a really lame example, let's use arbitrary yet quantifyable numbers!

Say it takes 20 "stress points" to activate and maintain SSJ at its weakest, 40 SP at 1/4, 60 SP at 1/2, 80 SP at 3/4, and 100 at full power. Meanwhile SSJ2 would require 200 SP to activate and maintain itself at its weakest.

Once Gohan underwent the power up, it took 20 SP to go "Mystic." This usually makes Gohan go SSJ, but because of the "ki network rewiring," it now takes over 20 SP to achieve "Mystic" and 0 to maintain it. As a result, SSJ now requires something like 40 SP, or substantially more, merely to activate it at its weakest.

Meanwhile, SSJ levels no longer adds anything to his strength, so he wastes 40+ SP for nothing if he were to use them.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:46 pm

If Gohan could use SSJ at all, he would have when Super Gotenks Buu was swatting him around. Even if it didn't do anything, he still would've tried it.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:53 pm

Rocketman wrote:If Gohan could use SSJ at all, he would have when Super Gotenks Buu was swatting him around. Even if it didn't do anything, he still would've tried it.

No he wouldn't. He knows in advance that it simply won't do anything other than cause him physical stress, if he can still attain SSJ. If he's curious, I'm sure he'll check it out well after Boo is finished with, but not in the heat of battle.

EDIT: It's the same idea as suddenly switching to weighted clothing; it'll only make things harder, at best.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:02 pm

Dayspring wrote:No he wouldn't. He knows in advance that it simply won't do anything other than cause him physical stress, if he can still attain SSJ.

He does? Since when?

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:39 pm

Dayspring wrote:if he can still attain SSJ.

Yeah, until GT.

Then he gets relegated to the status of styrofoam cheerleader.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:24 am

Rocketman wrote:
Dayspring wrote:No he wouldn't. He knows in advance that it simply won't do anything other than cause him physical stress, if he can still attain SSJ.
He does? Since when?

Common sense?

1) Kaioshin's upgrade is discribed as all the potential strength he can ever hope to achieve. Therefore, he's already stronger than his previous SSJ2 strength, since he's essentially himself in SSJ3+more.

2) Years of personal experience shows him that maintaining SSJ levels cause a strain on the body. Kaioshin points out that it's even to the point that it'll shorten his life.

3) If he's already attained all the power he'll ever gather through fighting, training and transformations, why transform? SSJ levels (if he can still transform) can now only give him hair changes and physical stress, not speed and strength boosts.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:27 am

Dayspring wrote:1) Kaioshin's upgrade is discribed as all the potential strength he can ever hope to achieve.

This gets passed around a lot, but all Kaiôshin really says is that he can bring a fighter passed his limit.

Dayspring wrote:Kaioshin points out that it's even to the point that it'll shorten his life.

He says that to Goku, actually. And that was only regarding him fusing as a Super Saiyan with Gohan (because the fusion would be stuck like that for life).

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:33 am

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:
Dayspring wrote:1) Kaioshin's upgrade is discribed as all the potential strength he can ever hope to achieve.
This gets passed around a lot, but all Kaiôshin really says is that he can bring a fighter passed his limit.

Dayspring wrote:Kaioshin points out that it's even to the point that it'll shorten his life.
He says that to Goku, actually. And that was only regarding him fusing as a Super Saiyan with Gohan (because the fusion would be stuck like that for life).

1) Exactly my point.

2) Thanks for the clarification. But my point still stands. SSJ, if it can still be used by Gohan, won't do anything but require energy (even if it's a negligeable amount) to do nothing other than change his hair's colour and length.

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:40 am

Dayspring wrote:SSJ, if it can still be used by Gohan, won't do anything but require energy (even if it's a negligeable amount) to do nothing other than change his hair's colour and length.

But the thing is, when he tries to go SSJ, he goes Ultimate/Mystic instead now. Remember, at Kai world? The old guy said "just do that SSJ thing". And when Gohan did it, he turned Mystic. Its like, the trigger to go SSJ is still there, only now the end result is the Mystic form instead of SSJ.