Why do lots of people like Cell and Broly?

[Mike D]

If Super Saiyan functions as a multiplier and then add more than 20 years of training (5 of which was with Uub) to the equation his base state would be leagues beyond any advancement Cell or Freeza could have acquired with their Hell training.

'Twas only a joke.

[Rocketman]

Base kid Goku.

Kakarrot had 20 plus years of training (5 of which was with Uub) which would naturally make his base state leagues beyond any advancement Cell or Freeza could have acquired with their Hell training.

It's stated he lost a lot of power when he became a kid.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Base kid Goku.

Kakarrot had 20 plus years of training (5 of which was with Uub) which would naturally make his base state leagues beyond any advancement Cell or Freeza could have acquired with their Hell training.

It's stated he lost a lot of power when he became a kid.

Can you point out where? All I recall is that he could not use Shunkan Idou properly and the whole Super Saiyan 3 problem was rectified when he got his tail back.

[SSJ2bardock]

I can't point it out exactly, but I do recall Goku saying "If only I wasn't in this body" or things along those lines.

[Saiyan-Professor]

I can't point it out exactly, but I do recall Goku saying "If only I wasn't in this body" or things along those lines.

I could be wrong but I believe that was spoken in reference to the two instances I spoke of but all of those were fixed when he got his tail back and Super Saiyan 4. Piccolo had to help him escape the planet prior to it exploding because he ran out of Ki while transporting everyone from earth to planet Plant as a SSJ 4.

[Wojak]

Base kid Goku.

Kakarrot had 20 plus years of training (5 of which was with Uub) which would naturally make his base state leagues beyond any advancement Cell or Freeza could have acquired with their Hell training.

Still, Base Kid Goku.
If he was adult, then okay, he could have beaten them.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Base kid Goku.

Kakarrot had 20 plus years of training (5 of which was with Uub) which would naturally make his base state leagues beyond any advancement Cell or Freeza could have acquired with their Hell training.

Still, Base Kid Goku.
If he was adult, then okay, he could have beaten them.

Dragonball GT tells us that Kakarrot did not lose his adult combat power (if so can you tell me where to find that statement). Even if 90-95% of his combat power carried over to his chibi form he could walk through Cell and Freeza in base form he received a power-up later through the return of his tail. Kakarrot trained for 10 years and he got to the point where he could battle the reincarnated Buu (Uub) with out the Super Saiyan multiplier. The Daizenshu states that Vegeta beat Fat Buu at the last Tenkaichi Budokai in DBZ. As I mentioned before if they kept the same rules that Son Gohan established at the last tournament then Vegeta beat Buu in his base state. If Vegeta can accomplish such a feat than Kakarrot can also, now add another 5 years of training and the battles against Baby and other villains.

[Rocketman]

The Daizenshu states that Vegeta beat Fat Buu at the last Tenkaichi Budokai in DBZ. As I mentioned before if they kept the same rules that Son Gohan established at the last tournament then Vegeta beat Buu in his base state.

So base Vegeta is supposed to be near Super Saiyan 3 levels?

[Saiyan-Professor]

So base Vegeta is supposed to be near Super Saiyan 3 levels?

All the Super Saiyan transformations do is function as a multiplier; supposedly, it increases the user’s base combat power 50 fold.

Super Saiyan 1 = 50
Super Saiyan 2 = 100
Super Saiyan 3 = 150
Super Saiyan 4 = 200 (?)

I know, you disagree with this but base Vegeta during the beginning of the Buu Saga was stronger than Freeza when he fought Pui Pui. The last Tenkaichi Budokai in DBZ occurred 10 years from when they first fought Fat Buu and so naturally, Vegeta would have advanced from that point and then some can argue that this incarnation of Buu was not as strong as when he originally appeared. So yes, I would put Vegeta somewhere around that combat power level in his base form or close enough to win the match.

[Victator Supreme]

Base Goku was not going to beat a SSJ 2 which Cell was. He could walk over Freeza but not Cell. With them together he is going to have to go up to the the third leval or at least the 2nd.

[SSj_Rambo]

All the Super Saiyan transformations do is function as a multiplier; supposedly, it increases the user’s base combat power 50 fold.

Super Saiyan 1 = 50
Super Saiyan 2 = 100
Super Saiyan 3 = 150
Super Saiyan 4 = 200 (?)

First off, where did u get this from? And second, do you mean 50/100/150 times the base power level of the person before their first transformation, or times their base power level each time they ascend? I know that the 50x for SSj can be proved by with the manga, but I've never heard of or seen the other formula's before.

[Saiyan-Professor]

All the Super Saiyan transformations do is function as a multiplier; supposedly, it increases the user’s base combat power 50 fold.

Super Saiyan 1 = 50
Super Saiyan 2 = 100
Super Saiyan 3 = 150
Super Saiyan 4 = 200 (?)

First off, where did u get this from? And second, do you mean 50/100/150 times the base power level of the person before their first transformation, or times their base power level each time they ascend? I know that the 50x for SSj can be proved by with the manga, but I've never heard of or seen the other formula's before.

Dayspring provided me with the data from the Daizenshu. Supposedly, Super Saiyan 2 is super Saiyan 1 x two, which would be 100 times the base power of the user and so forth. The Super Saiyan 4 part is a guess on my part thus the question mark.

[Wojak]

All the Super Saiyan transformations do is function as a multiplier; supposedly, it increases the user’s base combat power 50 fold.

Super Saiyan 1 = 50
Super Saiyan 2 = 100
Super Saiyan 3 = 150
Super Saiyan 4 = 200 (?)

First off, where did u get this from? And second, do you mean 50/100/150 times the base power level of the person before their first transformation, or times their base power level each time they ascend? I know that the 50x for SSj can be proved by with the manga, but I've never heard of or seen the other formula's before.

Dayspring provided me with the data from the Daizenshu. Supposedly, Super Saiyan 2 is super Saiyan 1 x two, which would be 100 times the base power of the user and so forth. The Super Saiyan 4 part is a guess on my part thus the question mark.

Okay...

Vegeta was stronger than Teen Gohan in the Buu Saga. Kid Gohan was on par with Perfect Cell.
As a SSJ, Gohan fought Dabura that was on par with Gohan at SSJ, and Dabura's powerlevel was close to Perfect Cell's.
If the SSJ multipliers stay the same, then Vegeta got not much stronger in base really in 7 years, maybe an increase of 1,5 times maximum, which should put him as stronger than SSJ Teen Gohan.
Then, you guys claim that he got as strong as a SSJ 2 in 20 years, which then by your numbers should be an increase with 200 times his base power, which probably would give him a power to pulverize Super Buu with a sneeze as a SSJ2.
That sounds not probable.

[Saiyan-Professor]

First off, where did u get this from? And second, do you mean 50/100/150 times the base power level of the person before their first transformation, or times their base power level each time they ascend? I know that the 50x for SSj can be proved by with the manga, but I've never heard of or seen the other formula's before.

Dayspring provided me with the data from the Daizenshu. Supposedly, Super Saiyan 2 is super Saiyan 1 x two, which would be 100 times the base power of the user and so forth. The Super Saiyan 4 part is a guess on my part thus the question mark.

Okay...

Vegeta was stronger than Teen Gohan in the Buu Saga. Kid Gohan was on par with Perfect Cell.
As a SSJ, Gohan fought Dabura that was on par with Gohan at SSJ, and Dabura's powerlevel was close to Perfect Cell's.
If the SSJ multipliers stay the same, then Vegeta got not much stronger in base really in 7 years, maybe an increase of 1,5 times maximum, which should put him as stronger than SSJ Teen Gohan.
Then, you guys claim that he got as strong as a SSJ 2 in 20 years, which then by your numbers should be an increase with 200 times his base power, which probably would give him a power to pulverize Super Buu with a sneeze as a SSJ2.
That sounds not probable.

Looking back at the Freeza Saga, we saw the strengthening of their base forms to various degrees and lengths. Kakarrot grew by leaps and bounds just from the gravity training when in route to Namek. Therefore, to me gravity training over a 7-year period would show impressive results. It would be even more so within a 20+-year period.

For the record, I believe that Son Gohan was an extremely weak Super Saiyan 2 during the fight with Dabra, because of his I want to be a scholar (or whatever) and forgo fighting attitude.

[Rocketman]

Looking back at the Freeza Saga, we saw the strengthening of their base forms to various degrees and lengths. Kakarrot grew by leaps and bounds just from the gravity training when in route to Namek. Therefore, to me gravity training over a 7-year period would show impressive results. It would be even more so within a 20+-year period.

Why did they need the Super Saiyan levels at all, then?

Goku got a roughly 9x increase from training in gravity up to 100Gs for six days.

If Vegeta got near that rate of increase (and he should, from training in 300Gs), then his base form would've been...

Starts around 2,000,000 (he did no gravity training pre-Trunks).
Every six days, he gets 9x stronger.
He trains for three years.
365 x 3 = 1095 days
1095/6 = 182.5
182.5 x 9 = 1642.5
1642.5 x 2,000,000 = 3,285,000,000

There seems to be a problem here.

For the record, I believe that Son Gohan was an extremely weak Super Saiyan 2 during the fight with Dabra, because of his I want to be a scholar (or whatever) and forgo fighting attitude.

He didn't have any sparks in his aura. He wasn't SSJ2.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Looking back at the Freeza Saga, we saw the strengthening of their base forms to various degrees and lengths. Kakarrot grew by leaps and bounds just from the gravity training when in route to Namek. Therefore, to me gravity training over a 7-year period would show impressive results. It would be even more so within a 20+-year period.

Why did they need the Super Saiyan levels at all, then?

Goku got a roughly 9x increase from training in gravity up to 100Gs for six days.

If Vegeta got near that rate of increase (and he should, from training in 300Gs), then his base form would've been...

Starts around 2,000,000 (he did no gravity training pre-Trunks).
Every six days, he gets 9x stronger.
He trains for three years.
365 x 3 = 1095 days
1095/6 = 182.5
182.5 x 9 = 1642.5
1642.5 x 2,000,000 = 3,285,000,000

There seems to be a problem here.

Others have the problem I am content with where it stands.

He didn't have any sparks in his aura. He wasn't SSJ2.

Well son Gohan is dumber than I thought if he fought Dabra as just a Super Saiyan 1. It is clear why Vegeta got irritated with him.

[Bussani]

This is why Mr Toriyama did away with power levels, even if you're not talking about power levels directly. He just wanted to be less strict with it all.

[Rocketman]

Others have the problem I am content with where it stands.

So you have no problem with base Vegeta at the very beginning of the Android saga being able to annihilate Freeza by twitching his finger?

[Saiyan-Professor]

Others have the problem I am content with where it stands.

So you have no problem with base Vegeta at the very beginning of the Android saga being able to annihilate Freeza by twitching his finger?

I just see it as progression in strength and so naturally, they would have surpassed their opponents from the past. During the Freeza Saga Vegeta was already stronger than Freeza’s 3rd form in his base state. Dragonball began to exaggerate combat powers from that point on and since Toriyama did not have any of the earlier villains return in the manga he did not have to have people asking these types of questions concerning the Z-Senshi’s strength in comparison with those of the past.

[Kaboom]

Vegeta EVER ending up so powerful in his base for so as to be able to destroy Freeza by sneezing is still ridiculous. Why even bother with Super Saiyan or transcending it when you'd end up that ludicrously powerful without it?