Ginyu Squad: Freeza's top goons, or outsourced fighters?

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

But Vegeta doesn't sell planets. He just works for Freeza - he gets assignments, carries them out and gets the next one. One constraint to this assignment is that he can't damage the planet. If it's damaged, it's less valuable to Freeza.

Now, before going to Earth for the Dragonballs, Vegeta knows that Freeza won't like him going off on his own. If the plan with the Dragonball works, he can declare open war to Freeza and it won't matter, but if it doesn't he'll have to stay with him. In the latter scenario, Freeza would be pissed off at Vegeta, but he knows that if he presents an undamaged planet it may calm Freeza's wrath. Just view it as a safety measure.

But that goes against ALL dialogue in the Saiyan Saga that relates to planet-selling. Where is it once said that Vegeta is worried that Frieza is going to punish him?

I mean, I think that Vegeta is pathetic, and here I am thinking you are underestimating him...and Frieza.

Where is it ever said that they just give Frieza planets for free? That just doesn't seem like something Vegeta would do. It seems to me that Frieza tricked them into basically being slaves, by paying them and making them FEEL like they were independent.

It always seemed to me that "assignments" for the Saiyans were seen by them as commissions. "Hey, take care of this planet. I'll pay you well."

[Raki]

I though Saiyans just took the deal as "planet brokers" to test and increase their strength.

[Terra-jin]

It could be that Vegeta received some kind of payment for his jobs, but that doesn't change anything to the explanation I have given. Vegeta is smart enough to take into account the fact that Freeza will punish him when he just goes to planets unannounced. Cui's statement backs this up.
This means that he takes this into account. If he couldn't become immortal on Earth, Freeza will punish him (maybe even kill him) for his insubordination. As an insurance against that scenario, Vegeta wants to leave planet Earth unscathed and ready for sale as an appeasement for Freeza.

Why would you think I underestimate Vegeta? My explanation makes him very strategic, while simply aware of his place compared to Freeza. Just because he knows Freeza is a threat to him, doesn't mean he's pathetic, does it?

For free... well, I don't really think that the Saiyans had financial worries at all. Freeza used them for conquering planets, so he probably provided them with anything they need. Furthermore, all a Saiyan really needs is a good fight - and this is exactly what Freeza gives them by sending them off to their assignments.

E: I've gone over the manga and they do say that they're going to sell the planet themselves. But this doesn't really make sense; who are they gonna sell the planet to besides Freeza? The whole planet trade thing is a bit misty. It's not a planet trade as much as an empire that just conquers planets, right? Does Freeza sell his worlds to other buyers?

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

It could be that Vegeta received some kind of payment for his jobs, but that doesn't change anything to the explanation I have given. Vegeta is smart enough to take into account the fact that Freeza will punish him when he just goes to planets unannounced. Cui's statement backs this up.
This means that he takes this into account. If he couldn't become immortal on Earth, Freeza will punish him (maybe even kill him) for his insubordination. As an insurance against that scenario, Vegeta wants to leave planet Earth unscathed and ready for sale as an appeasement for Freeza.

Why would you think I underestimate Vegeta? My explanation makes him very strategic, while simply aware of his place compared to Freeza. Just because he knows Freeza is a threat to him, doesn't mean he's pathetic, does it?

For free... well, I don't really think that the Saiyans had financial worries at all. Freeza used them for conquering planets, so he probably provided them with anything they need. Furthermore, all a Saiyan really needs is a good fight - and this is exactly what Freeza gives them by sending them off to their assignments.

"Recognizing his place" is not exactly a Vegeta trait.

See: Goku.

Which Kiwi comment?

I haven't ever seen any evidence to prove anything other than Vegeta THINKING he was a freelance planet-killer.

[Terra-jin]

Actually, Vegeta knew quite well that Freeza is stronger than him. He states this several times during the Namek arc.

Just after Vegeta was healed from his battle on Earth, he is confronted by Cui who then makes the statement. This would contradict Vegeta being a freelancer, since Freeza gives him orders and such.

The Saiyans were never freelancers, although they might have thought so when they began their relations with Freeza. Freeza didn't wait for the Saiyans to choose their battles, he assigned them to planets he needed, just as he did to the rest of his empire. They were all just part of Freeza's army, not his employees or anything.
At first, the Saiyans didn't care that they were given orders because Freeza provided them with good fights. Freeza got his planets, the Saiyans got their fights. However, after some time the Saiyans wanted more autonomy in their life within the empire. This conflicted with Freeza's desire to keep the Saiyans in check - especially with them getting stronger and that legend that kept popping up.
Things escalated to the point that Freeza kept the Saiyans away from fights (fearing them to become stronger through fighting) and killing alarmingly strong Saiyans.

I've gone a little astray, I'm afraid, but I wanted to give my view of the dealings between Freeza's empire and the Saiyans a bit.

[DNA]

Anyway, back on topic. It seems Ginyu Squad was the top Freeza had to offer, not necessarily the best of the Cold Empire, like the Coola Squad was the best Coola had to offer, and maybe Abo and Kado were the best of the best in the Cold Empire?

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Terra-jin]

OK Kunzait, I've got to know. Do you have databases of essays on Dragonball topics or do you just type like lightning?

I agree with most of what you said. It's these things why I love that whole backstory about the empire and the Saiyans so much. There's just one thing that I don't really agree with in your essay: that Freeza and co. actually sell the planets they conquer. I mean, who are they gonna sell them to? I thought that Freeza just made war on the entire Universe. Like he wants to own it all, or that he wants to control it all (perhaps out of fear of a stronger being than him emerging anywhere).
You're right about the Saiyans being just another race, IMO. They were discovered at one point and being the bloodthirsty maniacs they are they were delighted by the possibility of fights. The only other option was to resist and then to be enslaved or destroyed. I do think that in this latter group, there were people who surrendered and those who resisted until the end. The ones who surrendered would either be corrupted by the power and wealth, or be waiting for a chance to defeat Freeza.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

..On the whole, I think the Saiyans were generally stronger than other races. While there were probably exceptional mutants or strong members of a race, I think the Saiyans probably had a higher AVERAGE strength.

That, or the Saiyans were a problem of numbers. They were rather prideful, they were thriving in the warlike galactic community, and Frieza decided that all the bumping uglies and huge numbers of strong warriors was an issue.

It's hard to tell, in the original narrative.

But what I don't like is the abandonment of the idea of planet SELLING, because it seems to me that the Saiyans at least THOUGHT that they were going to sell a planet for a price.

Vegeta talks at length about how he didn't realize he was a lackey. It seems likely to me, and in fact seems OBVIOUS to me, that Frieza tricked him.

But it doesn't seem that he thought Frieza would chastise him, does it? Where is that sort of thing said? I always thought Frieza kept the Saiyans in line by dangling a carrot in front of their noses, rather than keeping them scared of punishment.

[Terra-jin]

We know that Freeza didn't approve the Saiyans going to Earth by themselves. It seems likely that Vegeta knew this, since he knew Freeza and was quite familiar with his dealings in the empire.

You do have a point about Vegeta not realizing he was a slave. It made me think of a scene from the Bardock special. Here Vegeta comes wandering in when Freeza, Zarbon and Dodoria were having a conversation about the Saiyan race, asking for an assignment. Zarbon gets mad, but Freeza says it's ok and gives Vegeta his assignment. So I guess that Freeza was a bit more lenient with Vegeta when it comes to the assignments he gave him. However, if this is the case, why would Freeza be so angry if Vegeta went to another planet on his own?
Perhaps it's because Freeza found out about Vegeta's plan to get immortal through the Dragonballs. This gave away Vegeta's hidden agenda to one day kill Freeza, which Freeza was previously unaware of. So it's not just that he went to another planet, but that he chased after the Dragonballs. Of course, this renders my theory about him taking insurance in the form of an unscathed planet Earth void.

I guess Kunzait's explanation for this works better - Vegeta keeping the planet for himself 'since he was he there anyway'.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta talks at length about how he didn't realize he was a lackey. It seems likely to me, and in fact seems OBVIOUS to me, that Freeza tricked him.

"After you worked me like a slave all those years, Zarbon?"

I can't find anything in the manga that says Vegeta didn't realize he was a lackey. He may not have wanted to admit it to anyone else, but the way he talks and schemes throughout the early part of the Namek Saga makes me think he knows exactly where his place was.

But it doesn't seem that he thought Freeza would chastise him, does it? Where is that sort of thing said? I always thought Freeza kept the Saiyans in line by dangling a carrot in front of their noses, rather than keeping them scared of punishment.

Freeza's entire empire is built on the fear of Freeza's punishment.

Perhaps it's because Freeza found out about Vegeta's plan to get immortal through the Dragonballs. This gave away Vegeta's hidden agenda to one day kill Freeza, which Freeza was previously unaware of. So it's not just that he went to another planet, but that he chased after the Dragonballs. Of course, this renders my theory about him taking insurance in the form of an unscathed planet Earth void.

Kwi outright states "Freeza's pretty mad you guys did all this without his permission".

[caejones]

I think if anything I create gets a Kunzait-esque fan, I can stop worrying about self-glorification.

The whole "Freeza was openly pissed about Vegeta and Nappa going to Earth unanounced" thing... was that mentioned by anyone other than Cui? Because I got the impression that Cui and Vegeta had a history of trying to piss the other off... o.o

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Vegeta talks at length about how he didn't realize he was a lackey. It seems likely to me, and in fact seems OBVIOUS to me, that Freeza tricked him.

"After you worked me like a slave all those years, Zarbon?"

I can't find anything in the manga that says Vegeta didn't realize he was a lackey. He may not have wanted to admit it to anyone else, but the way he talks and schemes throughout the early part of the Namek Saga makes me think he knows exactly where his place was.

What about his exchange with Dodoria? Dodoria tries to trade the secret of Planet Vegeta's destruction for his life. When Vegeta hears this, he says something along the lines of "Don't get me wrong, I don't care about my family or friends. I'm just angry...that I was a slave my entire life..

Without even knowing it"

Snarky grin, bloody death.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Terra-jin]

After Vegeta forced Dodoria to tell him The Secret, didn't Vegeta respond with "I don't care about my planet, my family or friends... I just regret being a slave all my life without knowing it!" Or do I have that quote wrong?

E: Kamikaze beat me to it.

[Rocketman]

After Vegeta forced Dodoria to tell him The Secret, didn't Vegeta respond with "I don't care about my planet, my family or friends... I just regret being a slave all my life without knowing it!" Or do I have that quote wrong?

Viz Manga says: "Don't get me wrong, Dodoria. I could care less about the planet, my fellow Saiyans, or my parents. *snort* For a moment I was just angry with myself...for letting myself be used by you bastards!"

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

After Vegeta forced Dodoria to tell him The Secret, didn't Vegeta respond with "I don't care about my planet, my family or friends... I just regret being a slave all my life without knowing it!" Or do I have that quote wrong?

Viz Manga says: "Don't get me wrong, Dodoria. I could care less about the planet, my fellow Saiyans, or my parents. *snort* For a moment I was just angry with myself...for letting myself be used by you bastards!"

Hm. My old scanslation disagrees with that translation.

....I *am* buying the manga. In VizBig form!

...Just in order from start to finish, and not starting from the start AND the middle.

I'm wondering if we can get anybody who knows Japanese to read the original line, and give us that context.

[Terra-jin]

The anime has the same line as Viz's version.

[Onikage725]

Hm, I know Viz has it's errors, but I have to assume that scanlations aren't the best source for these things. I'd side with Simmons' take (and therefore Viz in this case).

I don't think Vegeta had any plans for the planet Earth itself, btw. He did try to blow it up and all. I know that was a heat of the moment thing, but his only interest at first was "get Piccolo to talk." Piccolo told him where he could shove it, so then they went into "wipe out the petty local resistance and have some fun while we're at it" mode. Then Vegeta had a miniature panic attack about "Kakarotto" supposedly being a lot stronger, and he decided they didn't need anything on Earth. They could just go to Namek.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Hm, I know Viz has it's errors, but I have to assume that scanlations aren't the best source for these things. I'd side with Simmons' take (and therefore Viz in this case).

I don't think Vegeta had any plans for the planet Earth itself, btw. He did try to blow it up and all. I know that was a heat of the moment thing, but his only interest at first was "get Piccolo to talk." Piccolo told him where he could shove it, so then they went into "wipe out the petty local resistance and have some fun while we're at it" mode. Then Vegeta had a miniature panic attack about "Kakarotto" supposedly being a lot stronger, and he decided they didn't need anything on Earth. They could just go to Namek.

I'll concede the line, but I really don't agree that he "had no plans" for Earth. Mostly, I think he went into a desperate rush to defeat Goku. It was just that his pride was worth FAR more to him than the plans he had for Earth. If he didn't care about it, then he wouldn't chastise Nappa for possibly destorying a Dragonball in his blast radius AND damaging the planet.