Why do lots of people like Cell and Broly?

[Saiyan-Professor]

I think he saw Freeza as a "special case."

I agree, and plus the Cell Games was a different setting and it was a one on one contest of strength. They were on a whole other level combat power wise then during the Freeza Saga and they knew at least they had a slight chance at winning which was something they did not during the various battles with Freeza.

Vegeta didn't fight in the Cell Games...
Not in a "one on one" contest of strength anyway.

Yeah but Kakarrot did and he was a Saiyan and most likely Vegeta spoke from what he would do in the situation and Saiyan thinking in general on the matter.

[Kunzait_83]

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[Cypher]

Something that's always been on my mind when reading/ watching DragonBall (Z)- surely the speed at which they're moving in a fight is supposed to be faster than it's actually presented, even when there are no signs of 'dashing'? I mean, take the fight with the Saibaimen- Yamcha and the little green git are dashing around, flickering into view for scant seconds, before vanishing again. I can't see how Yamcha, at around 1000 or something, fights at a higher speed than most of the warriors we see in the rest of the series. Alternatively, are people of the opinion that the series' fighters are only moving really quickly when we actually SEE 'dashing' and speed lines? Personally I can't decide. So I suppose even though Broly is moving slowly(ish) to our eyes, maybe he's not ACTUALLY really, really slow and lumbering as he appears to be...I mean, he's got to be faster than people dashing around in DragonBall and early Z, surely? I mean, he is probably a lot slower than his opponents, but I agree with Kunzait that being essentially invulnerable takes the edge off that comparative lack of speed.

Another thing I've wondered before, that Kunzait's post reminded me of- how crippled was Nappa after Goku smacked him around with the Kaiouken? I mean, sure, it probably hurt, and he couldn't get up and fight right then and there, but the way the scene plays out makes it seem like he's permanently useless...I just would have thought natural Saiyajin resilience would mean he'd recover at some point. Although I do feel that Vegeta killed him because he made him look bad, mainly.

[Kunzait_83]

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[Rocketman]

What about growing to Oozaru state against a tail-less Goku the moment he realized that Goku was clearly a better fighter than he was?

Just as a point, Goku wasn't a better fighter than Vegeta. He just had one really, really good technique. Vegeta could have beaten Goku without the ape form, if he had known more about what the Kaioken was.


And, while I don't disagree with your overall point, I think it is necessary to distinguish between filler and original scenes, so:

Or how about throwing dirt in Zarbon’s eyes to blind him in their second fight (filler though I think it may have been, but still...)?

...

We see Vegeta on Namek wiping out innocent Namekian villagers to steal their Dragon Ball, and he even unflinchingly blows away an old man holding a motherfucking infant in his arms.

Both of these were in the manga. A kid, not an infant, but that doesn't really matter.

We even see Saiya-jin in a few quick scenes taking (like the rest of Freeza’s army) sadistic glee in literally torturing some of their victims, dragging out their deaths and so forth and laughing all the while.

This is filler. No Saiyans are seen but Vegeta, Raditz, Nappa and Bardock (two panels).

On the Broly topic:

And USSJ2, which we know damn well is slow as fuck… by Dragon Ball’s standards that is…. allowed Trunks to perform a at least a FEW fairly quick maneuvers here and there; seriously, watch that fight with Cell again… he has moments where he’s zipping around and speed lining all over the place, keeping pace with Cell just fine until Cell decides to actually take the fight seriously.

Filler. Trunks never zips around or even has speed lines (one panel has some, on a single punch that Cell dodges my tilting his head) in the manga. Cell constantly outdoes him. U2SSJ is completely worthless.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Just because someone possesses a warrior code or an honor code that does not agree with your own that does not mean to the person in question that his code is not the genuine position to have. By American standards, for the most part the code of Bushido is any less honorable than our own or the European code of Chivalry. Nevertheless, you could not tell someone that holds to Bushido that his system is not honorable. When I said that Broli lacked a code system I meant that he did not follow the Saiyan’s per’se or that one from earth, which the Z-Senshi held. He essentially did not judge what was right and what was wrong. He was just an amoral creature that that existed for pure destruction and anarchy i.e. the ultimate predator.

Broli was fast because if he could dodge the punches he could evade them in other instances.Vegeta told Kewi that when someone’s power rises or in this case were already above the others their speed would increase or be superior. If others are weak in comparison to your own combat power why would you bother dodging and expending more Ki or energy (if that was possible)? Ultra Super Saiyan 2 would have been just as effective as it was when Trunks fought Cell.

Um… it’s called “showing off”. Did Broli NEED to dodge Piccolo and Goku’s punches? Of course not. This is the same guy who took a point blank, full power SSJ Kamehameha to the face, and laughed it off like Goku threw a rubber dildo at him or something.

But as the old saying goes “if you got it… flaunt it”.

And what Broli powers up into, as Onikage pointed out, appears to be almost NO different from USSJ, apart from the fact that Broli is so hard to fucking damage in any way. Broli’s muscle mass goes through the roof, his irises vanish, he even has similarly drawn hair as Trunks did.

And as USSJ shows us, not ALL Ki enhancing forms have to necessarily boost speed as well as power. Even if what Broli turned into wasn’t the same as USSJ, it was still damned close enough, and he clearly didn’t need any sort of advantage in speed whatsoever to become an unstoppable juggernaut, as demonstrated by the fact that 99% of the time he tends to simply lumber straight into every attack thrown at him like they’re nothing but confetti to him.

That one time he dodged a few punches, that ONE TIME ONLY was the only time he ever demonstrated ANY remote degree of speed on his part. And USSJ2, which we know damn well is slow as fuck… by Dragon Ball’s standards that is…. allowed Trunks to perform a at least a FEW fairly quick maneuvers here and there; seriously, watch that fight with Cell again… he has moments where he’s zipping around and speed lining all over the place, keeping pace with Cell just fine until Cell decides to actually take the fight seriously.

The fact that Broli demonstrated far, far less feats of agility than Trunks ever does, opting instead to just take everything thrown at him and smile, leads me to think that he was FAR slower than almost any other character in the series, and yet he was so ludicrously strong and tough, that such a vast reduction in speed wasn’t any sort of a weakness in the slightest for him (unlike with Trunks).

That’s not such a giant leap to make when you get right down to it, that someone like Broli just didn’t NEED speed at all to be an indestructible powerhouse.

Mike demonstrated that the Legendary Super Saiyan is indeed a separate transformation from the Daizenshuu and not just Ultra Super Saiyan 2 so that is good enough for me. Next according to Vegeta in the manga when someone’s combat “power increases….speed increases along with it” (Viz, DBZ Vol. 5; page 128), now if that contradicts the whole USSJ 1-2 modifications well you have to take that up with Toriyama. Broli was fast but he did not have to display it because of his durability regardless of the transformation. I cannot see how you argue that he is not fast, hell even Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 3 and onward picked up on this fact.

[Onikage725]

Just because someone possesses a warrior code or an honor code that does not agree with your own that does not mean to the person in question that his code is not the genuine position to have. By American standards, for the most part the code of Bushido is any less honorable than our own or the European code of Chivalry. Nevertheless, you could not tell someone that holds to Bushido that his system is not honorable. When I said that Broli lacked a code system I meant that he did not follow the Saiyan’s per’se or that one from earth, which the Z-Senshi held. He essentially did not judge what was right and what was wrong. He was just an amoral creature that that existed for pure destruction and anarchy i.e. the ultimate predator.

I'm sorry, but what about Raditz? When he is wailing on Goku after being told he could leave, doesn't he go on about a true Saiyan warrior doing whatever it takes? Vegeta behaves the exact same way until he becomes a super saiyan. After that, suddenly we get the rules. "A true warrior doesnt need this" or "a true warrior doesn't do that." A stark parallel from the old "whatever it takes" philosophy, seemingly adopted because he felt he had achieved his birthright and at that point felt his shit no longer stunk.

Next according to Vegeta in the manga when someone’s combat “power increases….speed increases along with it” (Viz, DBZ Vol. 5; page 128), now if that contradicts the whole USSJ 1-2 modifications well you have to take that up with Toriyama. Broli was fast but he did not have to display it because of his durability regardless of the transformation. I cannot see how you argue that he is not fast, hell even Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 3 and onward picked up on this fact.

We argue that he isn't fast because, one round of dodging aside, he didn't do anything fast. The Vegeta line? Is Vegeta an expert on LSSJ as well? That would be amusing considering it isn't even canon. Wouldn't that logic work towards USSJ2, by your logic?

@Kunzait and Rocketman- In regards to Broli and USSJ2 Trunks, we don't need to worry about filler really. We are discussing a movie. It is perfectly reasonable to factor Toei's interpretation of USSJ2 when discussing Toei's interpretation of LSSJ.

[Kid Trunks]

What about growing to Oozaru state against a tail-less Goku the moment he realized that Goku was clearly a better fighter than he was? Kind of an unfair advantage he gave himself there wouldn’t you say?

I don't agree with that. Goku was using the Kaioken. Thats a cheat as well, since its not his base power.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

What about growing to Oozaru state against a tail-less Goku the moment he realized that Goku was clearly a better fighter than he was? Kind of an unfair advantage he gave himself there wouldn’t you say?

I don't agree with that. Goku was using the Kaioken. Thats a cheat as well, since its not his base power.

First of all, the argument is NOT "who is MORE honorable". The argument is "Does Vegeta have ANY sort of code of honor BECAUSE he comes more directly from the culture of the Saiyans?"

Whether or not GOKU was cheap doesn't even factor into the equation.

But, for the sake of the argument, I would like to say that if that's your basis of comparison...every fight from Vegeta on has Goku cheating. The Super Saiyan is just a more STABLE multiplier or addition than the Kaioken.

Also, there's a difference in going 10x power that was likely good enough to kill Goku in order to TOTALLY CRUSH HIM....

...and using a self-damaging technique to boost his power to something comparable.

[Cypher]

Also, to be fair, Goku WAS fighting for the sake of the planet against evil alien invaders who, it had been made perfectly clear, weren't too concerned about preserving humanity. I think his 'cheating' is a bit different.

[Kid Trunks]

First of all, the argument is NOT "who is MORE honorable". The argument is "Does Vegeta have ANY sort of code of honor BECAUSE he comes more directly from the culture of the Saiyans?"

Whether or not GOKU was cheap doesn't even factor into the equation.

Sure it does. If using techniques that multiply your power is the name of the game, which was the precedent set by Goku, then Vegeta was just playing by the rules, just more effectively.

But, for the sake of the argument, I would like to say that if that's your basis of comparison...every fight from Vegeta on has Goku cheating. The Super Saiyan is just a more STABLE multiplier or addition than the Kaioken.

Also, there's a difference in going 10x power that was likely good enough to kill Goku in order to TOTALLY CRUSH HIM....

...and using a self-damaging technique to boost his power to something comparable.

Maybe SSJ is a cheat.

And how much either Goku or Vegeta multiplied their powers doesn't matter. Goku set the trend for it, Kaioken x2. That didn't work.Kaioken x3. Still not enough? Kaioken x4. then. Vegeta just played him at his own game.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

The thing is though, that Goku is hurting HIMSELF to amplify his own power. And even then, Vegeta was a match for him. But with the 10x power-up, it was overkill...as shown by Vegeta feeling confident enough to go about crushing Goku's legs and torturing him.

For Goku, none of the Kaiokens gave him enough power to grow CONFIDENT in himself, it was always a desperate and last-ditch effort.

[Kid Trunks]

I'm not defending Vegeta as a whole. But in this case, regardless of the negative effects of the Kaioken on Goku's body, Goku put Vegeta in a postion where he had no choice but to transform. And its not like he could control the multiplier. It was x10, or else Goku beats him with the Kaioken.

[Rocketman]

And how much either Goku or Vegeta multiplied their powers doesn't matter. Goku set the trend for it, Kaioken x2. That didn't work.Kaioken x3. Still not enough? Kaioken x4. then. Vegeta just played him at his own game.

x3 was enough. He was smacking Vegeta all around with it. x4 was only used because he couldn't overpower Vegeta's Galick Gun.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

I'm not defending Vegeta as a whole. But in this case, regardless of the negative effects of the Kaioken on Goku's body, Goku put Vegeta in a postion where he had no choice but to transform. And its not like he could control the multiplier. It was x10, or else Goku beats him with the Kaioken.

That is not the way I saw it at all. Vegeta was ALWAYS ahead of Goku. We see, before Vegeta transforms, that Goku is basically torn up and on his last legs when Vegeta transforms. Vegeta just wanted his lead to be GREATER than it was, and was so pissed off that Goku could put up as much of a fight as he could.

[Kid Trunks]

Vegeta was ALWAYS ahead of Goku.

Thats not how it seemed to me.

[Kunzait_83]

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[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Vegeta was ALWAYS ahead of Goku.

Thats not how it seemed to me.

What fight were you watching?

Because the one I watched had a Goku that was basically saying "I can't do this anymore...my body can't take it..." right BEFORE Vegeta's transformation, a Goku that had crushed leg bones moments AFTER the transformation, and was basically always just trying to keep up. Goku and Kaio were both saying how very much they underestimated Vegeta's strength.

I saw a Vegeta that was only stopped thanks to being pretty tired from fighting a weaker but significantly strong opponent, his tail getting cut off while he wasn't looking, and getting crushed by someone that COULD do that transformation.

FURTHER.

As to WHY Goku's rules DON'T matter:

Vegeta was chastising Goku for using certain tactics against Cell, an opponent who would do ANYTHING AT ALL to win, and only did things in a torunament fashion due to being rather arrogant about his level of power.

Obviously, Vegeta thought at that point that Saiyans shouldn't do certain things, no matter WHAT their opponent is willing to do. Well, frankly, he NEVER followed those rules up until that point, if ever.

[Rocketman]

Vegeta was chastising Goku for using certain tactics against Cell, an opponent who would do ANYTHING AT ALL to win, and only did things in a torunament fashion due to being rather arrogant about his level of power.

He doesn't do that in the manga.

[Kunzait_83]

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