Why do lots of people like Cell and Broly?

[Rocketman]

OKRADITZISDEADWEAREENEMIESNOWHAHAHAHA OOOOOOOOOOOOOH Goku's dead."

"And I killed him!"

[Saiyan-Professor]

Contrary to what some believe the Vikings did have a sort of warrior code. The chief mandate was loyalty to one’s leader then in turn said leader had to maintain his skills and keep his men busied with constant battle in order to achieve a good and well known name. They way of the warrior was tied into their religious belief system. For the most part, they worshipped the Old Norse gods. We all knew them as the comic book characters Thor and Odin and the rest of the Norse gods. In their religion, the more famous one becomes as a warrior the better chance one has of getting into Valhalla the great drinking hall were the souls of mighty warriors go to spend eternity in the presence of the gods where they would retell the their exploits in the field of battle. While some here may refer to them as butchers thirsting after blood their behavior parallels many of the so-called modern-day civilized countries atrocities that they themselves committed in the not too distant past.

Now on to the subject at hand, the only thing we learn about the Saiyans and their worldview is what we see Vegeta and Nappa say and do. Now how much of that is the truth and how much of it is Toriyama’s faulty memory at work we do not know. As for me, I am viewing it as Vegeta providing and accurate description of the Saiyan warrior code or way of life. He could have just made it up but I seriously doubt given that he had such extreme pride in his heritage and in his mind at that time. I also believe that #17 was going off the same identical information that we have since Dr. Gero’s DNA gathering bots we collecting data the whole time the Z-Senshi and the Saiyans/Saiyan were on earth and in the manga they were still taking in information feeding it to Gero’s computer for Cell (Viz DBZ Vol. 15; Page 31). We do not know if they computer also continuously updated the other Artificial Humans as well. Now where Broli is concerned I agree that he lacked any knowledge of Saiyan honor because he did not grow up amongst them and we lack the knowledge of whether Paragus’ anger towards the king prevented him from passing on their Saiyan heritage and traditions. Then again Broli’s aggressive nature most likely prevented him from caring to begin with.

[Rocketman]

You still haven't said anything against our evidence, though. None of the Saiyans we see seem to follow any sort of code of conduct, especially not of the kind you've suggested.

[Onikage725]

Not in the manga, he didn't. He stayed there and tried attacking Freeza from behind while he was distracted with Gohan.

Well, he did that in the anime too.
Also, since we're tying this in to Broli's behavior, anime vs manga would only be a factor in the case of a flagrant contradiction, no?

Piccolo was the same way, remember? It was supposed to be only an alliance to kill Raditz and afterwards he and Goku would go back to being mortal enemies.

He accepted his circumstances and new allies much more quickly, though. Even when he killed Goku, he was like "they're just gonna wish the little fucker back anyway." Vegeta wound up on their team in the Freeza Saga, and it took him until the end of the Cell Saga to stop plotting murder. And it took his death during the Buu Saga to convince him of the merits of being a team player after his big-ass ego boost in the RoSaT.

And don't get me started on their motivations for goodness. From the moment he sacrificed himself for Gohan, he grudgingly accepted his new life role of anti-hero (eventual hero). Killing Goku and enslaving the world would mean killing the brat he was fond of, so he was content to chill out and vent his rage on bad guys. Vegeta's own son nearly died in front of him and he didn't give two shits (when Gero was leveling the mountain range). For someone so convinced of the predestined badassery of his bloodline, you'd think he'd pay a little bit more attention to his one and only heir.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Saiyan-Professor]

That was not even the original point that I was trying to make, what I was saying was that Broli was different from the rest. Then all of a sudden, the conversation went towards whether the Saiyans had a warrior code or not. Go back to my original comments and you will see what I was talking about initially. The issue of honor is subjective because everyone seems to interpret the data differently.

You’re still ignoring the fact that pretty much 99.9% of everything Vegeta supposedly says about the Saiya-jin having “honor” and “warrior codes” during the Cell saga was all COMPLETELY MADE UP for the FUNimation dub. It’s NOWHERE TO BE FOUND in the Japanese version. ANYWHERE. The most notable example that you yourself gave was all his monologuing during Son Goku’s fight with Cell, NONE OF WHICH is in the original version in any way shape or form...

Wikipedia defines of pride that coincides with the majority of dictionaries and non Judeo-Christian philosophies or worldviews as:

Pride is a lofty view of one's self or one's own. Pride often manifests itself as a high opinion of one's nation (national pride), ethnicity (ethnic pride), or appearance and abilities (vanity). Pride is considered a negative attribute by most major world religions, but some philosophies consider it positive. The opposite of pride is humility.

If you look at Dragonball Z (Viz) Volume 18 on page 86 Vegeta tells Trunks:

“I guess you don’t have a Saiyans pride.”

“I’m sure he’d rather choose death than win that way.”

“He’s no longer fighting just to save earth. Remember that.”

The Saiyan pride that Vegeta speaks of encompasses the Saiyan view of fighting as a warrior. This parallels Vegeta’s statements in Volume 26 pages 96-7. Just because the term or phrase “warrior code” or “Saiyan code” is not used does not mean that the thought or principle of one does not exist. Their pride is defined in certain actions and a way of looking at things. Look up the definition of “code” and you will see what I am talking about.

[caejones]

Ur... I think it's come down to somantics?
Like, Vegeta's obsession with pride is what is being thought of as a "code" of sorts...
... Which seems really to mean the saiyans do what they can be most proud of.
... Which makes the Namek stuff fun to figure out... XD.
(Though, Ocean dub Raditz told Goku to Have a little pride at one point... though... *shrug*)
(Blast, and now I'm feeling the problem with not having access to japanese dialogue. T.T. FUNi has Vegeta yell in the Buu saga that "You may have taken my body and my mind; but there's one thing a Saiyan always keeps: His PRIIIIDE!". Though dialogue aside, Vegeta was pissed that Goku didn't use SSJ3 against him in their fight... ).

Meh.

[Onikage725]

@ Professor-

Broli: You're all a waste of Saiyan blood.
He also tells his "prince" that he basically has to earn the right (through force) to make him kneel.

Broli had a level of ethnic pride as well, based on the rule of the strongest. That can't be the sole difference in your argument.

[Saiyan-Professor]

@ Professor-

Broli: You're all a waste of Saiyan blood.
He also tells his "prince" that he basically has to earn the right (through force) to make him kneel.

Broli had a level of ethnic pride as well, based on the rule of the strongest. That can't be the sole difference in your argument.

You maybe right but I always took that as Broli being sarcastic since he knew Vegeta could not make him bow. However, since Saiyans respect and honor power your point is most likely correct.

[Onikage725]

You maybe right but I always took that as Broli being sarcastic since he knew Vegeta could not make him bow. However, since Saiyans respect and honor power your point is most likely correct.

It could be a dub thing, like Kunzait said. I don't know your viewing history, but after thinking about it I realized that I mainly knew that saga from the dub. And I did agree that Vegeta had the warrior code thing going in that saga, but Kunzait says he didn't. I saw bits in pieces of the Cell Saga on fansubs, the whole thing dubbed, and then the whole thing raw (thanks to the International Channel). I never picked up the singles, and I only have up to the third orange brick. So there very well may be extra pride-talk out of dub Vegeta that is just easier to call to memory (at least on my end).

[Captain Awesome]

The FUNimation dub was tripping over itself trying to paint Vegeta as anything other than a bad guy, which is where all this demented warrior code crap arose from, he wasn't evil, he was just a determined warrior caught up in his pride.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Ur... I think it's come down to somantics?
Like, Vegeta's obsession with pride is what is being thought of as a "code" of sorts...
... Which seems really to mean the saiyans do what they can be most proud of.

Actually, it is that and more, take Americans for example. They have individual pride in themselves because of their own unique talents and skills but then there is national pride. Americans take pride in how they do things, it is a sort of way of life and how they approach the world. Even though certain actions are not written on some document or in stone per’se. American society still has a certain way they expect each other to act and if someone does not behave in that manner, they are called un-American. It is an unwritten code that I believe the Saiyans hold to that is intrinsically linked with their concept of pride.

[ultimatedbzfan]

This topic is still alive. So fucking unbelievable.

[Krakabeast]

This topic is still alive. So fucking unbelievable.

How do you kill which has no life?

[Kaboom]

This topic is still alive. So fucking unbelievable.

Um, yeah. It's apparently a popular topic which people have a lot of thought on. Nothing wrong with that.

[SSJ2bardock]

This topic is still alive. So fucking unbelievable.

How do you kill which has no life?

I think, therefore I am.

Sorry I had to

[Krakabeast]

This topic is still alive. So fucking unbelievable.

How do you kill which has no life?

I think, therefore I am.

Sorry I had to

Nothing is more surprising than the ease with which the many are governed by the few.

Ok I got it out of my system.

[caejones]

Actually, it is that and more, take Americans for example. They have individual pride in themselves because of their own unique talents and skills but then there is national pride. Americans take pride in how they do things, it is a sort of way of life and how they approach the world. Even though certain actions are not written on some document or in stone per’se. American society still has a certain way they expect each other to act and if someone does not behave in that manner, they are called un-American. It is an unwritten code that I believe the Saiyans hold to that is intrinsically linked with their concept of pride.

I had a feeling that's what you were getting at. (Though nationalistic pride never made any sense to me... ).
Thing is, though, it sorta seems like Vegeta only cared about the pride thing when he had room to show it off. Like... Would Vegeta have killed Nappa had Goku not been there? Hmm...
And now I'm confused about the distinction between pride and dignity...

[Saiyan-Professor]

Actually, it is that and more, take Americans for example. They have individual pride in themselves because of their own unique talents and skills but then there is national pride. Americans take pride in how they do things, it is a sort of way of life and how they approach the world. Even though certain actions are not written on some document or in stone per’se. American society still has a certain way they expect each other to act and if someone does not behave in that manner, they are called un-American. It is an unwritten code that I believe the Saiyans hold to that is intrinsically linked with their concept of pride.

I had a feeling that's what you were getting at. (Though nationalistic pride never made any sense to me... ).
Thing is, though, it sorta seems like Vegeta only cared about the pride thing when he had room to show it off. Like... Would Vegeta have killed Nappa had Goku not been there? Hmm...
And now I'm confused about the distinction between pride and dignity...

Some have viewed pride as someone expressing to others how wonderful they are whereas dignity is more along the lines of having confidence in oneself. Yet, this is just one interpretation it all depends on your religious and philosophical worldview. Those from a Judeo-Christian background view pride as a negative.

[SaiyaMel]

Bardock appeared to honor his fallen comrades by putting on a piece of cloth that he had soaked with their blood, before going onto fighting them himself?