Is Goku just a dumb jerk?

Sprite Satan · Post by **Sprite Satan** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:43 pm

It has been brought up likely a thousand times. But what the hell, let's hammer it out one more time, huh? Once more for the Gipper, kid.

Goku is strong. He's pure of heart. His loves in life are fighting and food in that order. He's simple minded. He's dedicated.

But are these positive character traits or are they just shallow excuses to hide his flaws?

He doesn't work for a living, forcing to family to live off of Gyuu Mao and the prize money from the 23rd Budoukai. He abandons his family and friends to train Uub. He is only relatively close to friends as long as they provide a challenge. He lets villains escape because they were challenging (although it is up to you if you agree with Kuririn that he deserves the granting of this request).

Now, ignoring author's intent which is likely that, yes, Goku is a super stand up guy filled with innocence and sunshine and unicorn giggles, is there a case to be made that Son Goku, for all the times he saved the world and is everyone's cherished hero, is a fundamentally flawed person?

Can we say Goku values friendship as anything beyond the challenge of a strong opponent? Does he value his marriage as anything beyond a source of home cooked food and his two children (which he does seem to care about)?

SaiyaMel · Post by **SaiyaMel** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:53 pm

It's been shown that Saiyan full-bloods are lousy parents and Kakkarot's not much different in regards to this. Fighting is more important to them... No doubt he does have a love a care for his family but training and getting stronger seem to more tops on his mind. With that said Vegeta also values his family but at the same time is more hung up on getting stronger himself and surpassing Kakkarot...

Chuquita · Post by **Chuquita** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:55 pm

If Goku didn't value his friendships there's no way he would've flipped out and gone ssj when Freeza killed Kuririn (via implosion no less!).

I do think he's a little light-headed in that he has trouble full grasping his relationships with passion the way Gohan and Kuririn do. But certain parts of it I have to chalk up to both the head-wound he received as a baby, and to the fact that who knows what kind of emotional trauma he went through after accidentally (and unknowingly) killing Grampa Gohan.

I mean, wouldn't you be leery of getting too attached to people in the aftermath of waking up one morning and finding the only other human company you'd had so far in life was dead?

Did young Goku have to carry out the task of burying Grampa Gohan the morning after? Did he even know what to do?

Or did Oozaru destroy Grampa Gohan SO thoroughly that there were no remains at all and Goku just woke up to find he was alone?

I think that entire scenario, despite the untold details, is pretty much what caused some of Goku's relationship flaws.

As for getting a job, that's totally his own fault. You can't tell me that a construction company wouldn't hire Goku to work as one of their wrecking crew, or that he couldn't do what many former sports figures do and go on to become an announcer at the Tenkaichi Budoukai. I'm sure events other than the tournament are held at that arena; he could totally work there in some capacity. ^^;;

EDIT: I should also note that I'm happy that Goku's got flaws.

"Perfect" characters usually end up as Mary Sues or Gary Stus and always get on my nerves due to their totally un-relatable nauseating existence. (Glowers disgustedly over at two characters from a completely different anime series)

LeprikanGT · Post by **LeprikanGT** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:05 pm

uh...... no?

eevrything he does is for the better good of the planet/universe.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:08 pm

LeprikanGT wrote:uh...... no?

eevrything he does is for the better good of the planet/universe.

Like letting Piccolo or Vegeta live?

SaiyaMel · Post by **SaiyaMel** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:08 pm

"Perfect" characters usually end up as Mary Sues or Gary Stus and always get on my nerves due to their totally un-relatable nauseating existence. (Glowers disgustedly over at two characters from a completely different anime series)

Yeah, Superman is another example of a character that I would consider as too perfect...

Chuquita · Post by **Chuquita** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:28 pm

SaiyaMel wrote:
"Perfect" characters usually end up as Mary Sues or Gary Stus and always get on my nerves due to their totally un-relatable nauseating existence. (Glowers disgustedly over at two characters from a completely different anime series)
Yeah, Superman is another example of a character that I would consider as too perfect...

I don't know enough about Superman to know if he's got any hangups (though I have heard/read on this forum that at some point during his existence he was ridiculously invisible) so I don't really have an opinion on him.

I mainly mean characters who seem like suped up self-insert characters. Characters who seem like the author took their own personality as a template and wrote their ideal self into their manga; and who according to the author and other characters in the story "can do no wrong" even when they do wrong.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:31 pm

SaiyaMel wrote:
"Perfect" characters usually end up as Mary Sues or Gary Stus and always get on my nerves due to their totally un-relatable nauseating existence. (Glowers disgustedly over at two characters from a completely different anime series)
Yeah, Superman is another example of a character that I would consider as too perfect...

I'm just gonna come right out and say it, I HATE SUPERMAN!

There, now that I've got that out of the way where was I? Can't remember...

LeprikanGT · Post by **LeprikanGT** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:06 am

@kaboom - he wasnt even there at the point piccolo died...and if he had killed vegeta; gohan krillin and bulma would have been murdered on namek.
or even passed that, the androids would have killed him; letting vegeta ilve is one of the best things he did in the show.

Sprite Satan · Post by **Sprite Satan** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:09 am

LeprikanGT wrote:@kaboom - he wasnt even there at the point piccolo died...and if he had killed vegeta; gohan krillin and bulma would have been murdered on namek.
or even passed that, the androids would have killed him; letting vegeta ilve is one of the best things he did in the show.

But Goku didn't know that. It's not really related to his motivations and intentions.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:20 am

SSJ2bardock wrote:I'm just gonna come right out and say it, I HATE SUPERMAN!

There, now that I've got that out of the way where was I? Can't remember...

I cannot stand the “Boy Scout” also.

Now on to Kakarrot, yes its true that the guy may have some sort of post traumatic psychological damage because of his grandfather’s death and plus we cannot forget that he has brain damage. However, come on; look at Vegeta, according to some he was a greater menace to all sentient species than Stalin or Hitler but this person stuck closer to his family than Mr. Clean Kakarrot. Yeah he loved to train but he was at home when he did it. You want to talk about loss; Vegeta did not just lose his father but his whole freaking planet which bothered him years later according to the closing episodes in GT when they battled Yi Xing Long. I think that Kakarrot is a jerk and people just make excuses for him.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:23 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:However, come on; look at Vegeta, according to some he was a greater menace to all sentient species than Stalin or Hitler but this person stuck closer to his family than Mr. Clean Kakarrot.

He made no effort to save them from death at the hands of #20.

Bardock the Mexican wrote:*means Chichi which is a word for tits

Bardock the Mexican · Post by **Bardock the Mexican** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:28 am

In some ways one could see Goku as a deadbeat dad as well as a all around irresponsable individual. He married a girl who turned out to be a perfectionist (bizarre given her childhood and what lack of an education) and that was a big thing. You have the fact that he comes off as ignorant of how to be a full time husband in regards to Milk*. In the end you have a marrige that should have broken up a long time ago in any normal situation. At least in America, given the attitude found there about divorce that would be normal. I just don't see how Goku and Milk

*means Chichi which is a word for tits in Mexican Spanish and I want to keep this at least nominally clean. ¿Entiendo?

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:38 am

Rocketman wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:However, come on; look at Vegeta, according to some he was a greater menace to all sentient species than Stalin or Hitler but this person stuck closer to his family than Mr. Clean Kakarrot.
He made no effort to save them from death at the hands of #20.

That was just four years or so after he began to live on earth so you should not expect any dramatic changes to have occurred. Now compare that Vegeta to the one at the end of Z and in GT. Kakarrot’s life was perfect from the moment he met Bulma to the end of the series compared to Vegeta’s. Even in death, both times Kakarrot had it pretty sweet. I am not sure about the Japanese as of yet but in the dub Chi-Chi asked Bulma to switch husbands because Vegeta was reliable and he was just about always around.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:41 am

I don't think of him as a bad person. He's just air headed and happy go lucky. He's not materialistic so he's happy living out his life on the land with what he can make and find with his hands. They seemed to be doing fine. They don't have to be rich to be happy.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:42 am

LeprikanGT wrote:@kaboom - he wasnt even there at the point piccolo died...

I was referring to when Goku himself beat and then spared Piccolo, at the 23rd Budokai.

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:48 am

Chuquita wrote:I mainly mean characters who seem like suped up self-insert characters. Characters who seem like the author took their own personality as a template and wrote their ideal self into their manga; and who according to the author and other characters in the story "can do no wrong" even when they do wrong.

Hmm...sounds like a Steven Seagal movie to me.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:08 am

Like this?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... gnatedHero

SaiyaMel · Post by **SaiyaMel** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:39 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:Now on to Kakarrot, yes its true that the guy may have some sort of post traumatic psychological damage because of his grandfather’s death and plus we cannot forget that he has brain damage. However, come on; look at Vegeta, according to some he was a greater menace to all sentient species than Stalin or Hitler but this person stuck closer to his family than Mr. Clean Kakarrot. Yeah he loved to train but he was at home when he did it. You want to talk about loss; Vegeta did not just lose his father but his whole freaking planet which bothered him years later according to the closing episodes in GT when they battled Yi Xing Long. I think that Kakarrot is a jerk and people just make excuses for him.

Not making excuses for Kakkarot, but it's hard to say whether or not Vegeta was actually closer to his family - he wasn't as social, had the gravity machine and didn't have the privilege of the afterlife training that Kak had..

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:24 am

I'm pretty sure everyone here knows my opinion on Son Goku.

I don't think he means to be a bad person. I don't think he does it maliciuosly or even really understands that what he does is wrong. I do however think he's an absolutely horrible father and half the time I just want to strangle the little bastard. Those reasons people've all already noted, for the most part.... I'll just add his behavor after his turn in the Cell games and go get a sayiajin-grade shotgun.