"I will get my revenge, Kakkarot!"

[Sprite Satan]

After Vegeta is defeated at the pinnacle of the Saiyan Saga, he is soon spouting what becomes the standard Vegeta line for the next few sagas.

"I can't believe a lower class warrior beat me! Next time, you'll get yours!"

But he didn't, did he?

No doubt Goku put up much more a fight than Vegeta was expecting. He brought Vegeta to the brink of destroying the planet before repelling his blast. He even had to turn into a Great Ape to beat him. Body wrecked after his multiple uses of the Kaio-ken, Goku was easy fodder and was generally crushed and mocked in equal measure. It was Yajerobi who cut off his tail, reverting back to normal but that sure as hell didn't defeat him. He was still very powerful.

Now, Goku did retain some of the Genki Dama he had formed, giving it to Kuririn, who threw it at Vegeta, who dodged, but it was reflected by Gohan, which did hit Vegeta. So, there's at least a link there that can be traced back to Goku. He gathered the initial energy.

But that didn't defeat him.

In fact, really, at this point, Vegeta had won. All he had to do was quickly kill the battered Goku, Gohan and Kuririn and he was done. But, of course, Gohan saw the Power Ball and transformed. Vegeta cut off the tail, and was crushed when Gohan's rapidly reverting body fell on him.

Then he was defeated and retreated, blah blah blah.

So what gives? Does Vegeta mean that Goku gave him the most trouble, if so, why not say that? Is Kakkarot the new short hand for "Goku, his son, the bald guy and the fat guy with the sword"? Is he simply skipping over Gohan and following the DNA line back to its source; is he really blaming Goku's sperm, and by extension, Goku himself for his woes? Perhaps if he had a copy of the family tree at hand, he'd be cursing Bardock for fathering Goku for fathering Gohan. Is it because Vegeta's pride is so much that even attempting to comprehend a non pure Saiyan defeating him (or at least playing a role) would cause him to combust in his pod?

[Bussani]

Good question. I think he just doesn't think a low-class Saiyajin should be so much trouble for him. And as Goku gets stronger and stronger, his pride gives him no choice but to surpass him.

Even if Goku never fraught him, he wouldn't stand for there being someone considered stronger out there than him.

[kaioken12]

I think, we was referring to Kakarott, because he was the only one really stronger than him at the time.
I mean, he started at 8000, Vegeta was around 18000 and then Goku came down on him with 24000 and after that even more during his Kamehameha.
So we know how much strength means to Vegeta and even if there always were stronger people than him (Ginyu Force, Freezer...) he always had his position as the strongest SAIYAN at least.
And even this thought was crushed as he was overpowered by Goku.


Of course Vegeta would be angry about all of these earthlings that made him retreat, but his pride was hurt by Goku and he couldn't "avenge his pride", as the others interfered.

So I think that might be the reason why he hates Kakarott the most.

And even though, after crushing Goku, he would have destroyed earth or at least killed everyone there to sell it anyway I think ^^

[Rocketman]

Remember, Vegeta doesn't know what the Kaioken is, and he can't sernse ki at this point. For all he knows, Goku was toying with him, then suddenly burst out his real power and batted Vegeta around like a cat with a mouse.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Saiyan-Professor]

....He’s NOT this glorious warrior/tragic anti-hero engaged in this epic and terribly romanticized titanic rivalry like both Vegeta himself and his real life fanbase like to spin it as; bluntly speaking, he’s essentially just a spoiled, bratty little 9 year old rich kid who’s still butt hurt because his Flawless Victory streak at Mortal Kombat was broken by the neighborhood retard, plain and simple....

How in the world do individuals like you and Mike make the claim that Vegeta was a spoiled brat? What privilege did this kid/man have under Freeza’s control? If the Saiyan Empire had remained then I would say yes, there is a good chance that you were correct. After all Vegeta was/is the crowned prince of the Saiyans. You act as if he was one of those bratty girls from MTV’s My Sweet 16. He did not have the good life as it were until Bulma became his sugar momma or as some would call Vegeta her boy-toy. He was a soldier just like the rest or as others put it, Vegeta was Freeza’s pet Saiyan, the reason why Vegeta had so much anger against Kakarrot because he crumbled the last piece of his past that he had left.

[Horgus]

If ANY former villain turned Z Senshi in the series has a legitimate beef with Goku (or at least one that’s worth holding against him for THAT long, and THAT bitterly), it’s Piccolo (seeing as how Goku fucking KILLED him/his “father” once), and it speaks volumes about his character next to Vegeta’s that he was able to grow the hell up and put his personal bullshit aside in light of the bigger picture LONG before Vegeta finally got a clue and was able to do the same at the ass-end of the series.

A messed up childhood will do that to you.

EDIT:

Also, a straight Piccolo to Vegeta comparison isn't really fair. Piccolo had the help of multiple benevolent personalities added to his own to help in his rehabilitation.

[Wojak]

How in the world do individuals like you and Mike make the claim that Vegeta was a spoiled brat?

Read the manga chapters. He obviously isn't the guy that has been pushed down. EDIT: I mean pre-Freeza saga.

What privilege did this kid/man have under Freeza’s control?

He was allowed to live, even tough his disdain of Freeza was videly known. That's enough as a privilege. Also, he seemed to be allowed to more or less determine where he wanted to go.

If the Saiyan Empire had remained then I would say yes, there is a good chance that you were correct. After all Vegeta was/is the crowned prince of the Saiyans.

Yes, and he was still in charge of the remaining Saiya-jins. He was still the prince to them.

the reason why Vegeta had so much anger against Kakarrot because he crumbled the last piece of his past that he had left.

In the manga, every Saiyan overpowered and defeated, except Goku, wants a rematch and feels humiliated, as fighting is a major part of their lives.

If ANY former villain turned Z Senshi in the series has a legitimate beef with Goku (or at least one that’s worth holding against him for THAT long, and THAT bitterly), it’s Piccolo (seeing as how Goku fucking KILLED him/his “father” once), and it speaks volumes about his character next to Vegeta’s that he was able to grow the hell up and put his personal bullshit aside in light of the bigger picture LONG before Vegeta finally got a clue and was able to do the same at the ass-end of the series.

A messed up childhood will do that to you.

Piccolo turned up fine, tough.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Horgus]

Piccolo turned up fine, tough.

Piccolo did have a messed up life, it can be decisively argued that Vegeta suffered far more during the course of his childhood than Piccolo did.

That's not to say that Piccolo hasn't be subject to a great deal of angst and despair at the near extinction of his race at the hands of Freeza, but he was an adult when he had to deal with that.

Vegeta was messed up by his father, was spoiled, and then suffered under the boot of Freeza until adulthood. I think Vegeta had it worse.

[Deep Thought]

The greatest of wall of text ever.

Seeing as how I intensely dislike (I don't really "hate" fictional characters) Vegeta, I couldn't agree more with this post. Vegeta is the most overrated character in all of Dragon Ball. By far. He puts Broly to shame, and that's saying something.

[Monkey D. Goku]

It wasn't until Son Goku became a Super Saiya-jin that Vegeta really was worried about surpassing and defeating Son. After healing from his battle on Earth Vegeta was considering going back to Earth to crush the Z warriors, but opted to go to get the Dragonballs first.

To me Vegeta's vendetta to kill Son didn't start until Son started to become a "Super Saiya-jin" (at least what Vegeta saw as Super Saiya-jin). Vegeta definitely wanted to kill Son prior to that point but it wasn't his main concern until after the battle with Freeza.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Horgus]

I’m sorry, but I have to call bullshit on that, on the grounds that you’re basically only looking at it through the lens of Z exclusively and are ignoring basically all of Piccolo’s actual back history from Dragon Ball.

Piccolo was no less than the pure and distilled embodiment on one Namekian’s evil and hatred made flesh. He was so decisively corrupt, so twisted by Katatsu’s son’s repressed hatred and resentment towards humanity, that he for a time counted as a fucking genuine demon.

Yet you seem to ignore that right from the start, Piccolo Jr. lacked much of the dark and evil instincts that clouded his father's soul. It can be argued that most of that ugliness died with him.

In fact, as soon as Radditz's death, relatively early in his life span, he no longer counted as a full demon, and this is without the subsequent two separate infusions of goodness and benevolence that Kami and Nail represented.

’m sorry, but that thoroughly takes a giant shit upon Vegeta’s being raised as Dragon Ball’s rough equivalent of a fanatically nationalistic racial supremacist, in terms of which character had more of a messed up “reason” for being the vicious SOB they were.

Vegeta’s daddy and racial identity issues look positively inconsequential and weak as all hell next to Piccolo’s baggage with Son Goku and humanity in general; and thereby IMO Vegeta himself comes off looking like a petulant child next to Piccolo for how much needless drama it took him to get over his incredibly childish and infantile tiff with Goku, that again was originally born out of what basically amounted to fucking NOTHING…

…as opposed to Piccolo who had a REAL grudge against Goku and again was formerly an embodiment of pure evil, but was able to handle his issues (even well before he ever fused with anyone) with about a trillion times more maturity and level headedness than Vegeta’s continuous outbursts of comparative whining and angst, of the kind one would expect out of a fucking teenager.

Again, Piccolo had the advantage of being the other half of an infinitely wise and benevolent being, something that Vegeta, as a selfish and poorly molded mortal lacked sorely.

Don’t misunderstand me; I’m not saying that Vegeta’s upbringing wasn’t monstrously fucked up. But I also don’t see what was so “harsh” about much of Vegeta’s life before the series.

Vegeta’s whole life was a fucking party that never stopped where he basically slaughtered and murdered whoever the fuck he felt like, whenever the fuck he felt like it, and not only got his rocks off on it, but also got fucking paid for it.

This is precisely why he was messed up. Saiyajin's were never prized for their parental skills, and Vegeta's behavior when contrasted with his son or Goku or even the Earthlings shows this.

I could go through the rest of your tirade but my essential opinion is that Vegeta's character isn't meant to be forgiven or sympathised with, at least not until the end of the series when he is somewhat redeemed. My opinion is that Vegeta's damaged nature stands as an example of the barbaric nature of Goku's race, its inhumanity, and the tragedy of its eventual snuffing out at the hands of Freeza.

When you stand back, you really have to admire what a great story it is.

[Thanos6]

Tragedy of its snuffing out?

It's a relief.

About the only way to redeem the Saiyans would be to slaughter/imprison the adults and raise the kids from scratch.

[Saiyan-Professor]

.........

Vegeta’s pride at being the top Saiyan was all he had left of his heritage. Then some upstart low-level brain damaged Saiyan comes along and damages that pride. Just image that everything that makes you, the person that you are is taken away one day. Family, friends, culture and so forth is just gone in a blink of an eye except for one solitary item and then poof that is gone. Your mind would be cloudy and most likely you would focus you attention on getting that back. From our perspective that behavior was somewhat childish but then again it happens everyday here on earth. I think we all sometimes need to look at things from Vegeta’s perspective instead of Kakarrot’s or any of the humans. I have read the manga, I have also viewed the relevant episodes with the Japanenese subs, and I do not get the same picture that you present of Vegeta. Yeah there are some differences here and there but to me it is not much. I guess this all come down to our different methods of interpreting literature.

In terms of the regular story, Vegeta may have “suffered” in his own mind by no longer wielding any power as a leader and having to settle for being a glorified henchman under Freeza… but for “normal” people with actual morals, how is that “suffering” in ANY way?..... Vegeta went through NO “actual” difficult times in his life up till the series. Not EVER. Sympathizing with Vegeta in his “dilemma” in desiring more power and Freeza’s position in the wake of the Saiya-jin’s extermination is like sympathizing with a vicious, murdering warlord who lost a substantial amount of power to another vicious murdering warlord.

I would just like to address this comment here specifically since you brought up real world morals. All political governments, leaders and their soldiers are not perfect even our country is not exempt for in our past and present we have done some deplorable things at times. Yet, the people of various countries for the most part support those actions thus nature of the age in which we live. I personally attempt to look at life in Dragon World when reading the manga or looking at the anime from the various characters perspective. I do not pick the one that most resemble my ethical belief system and judge everyone else by that character. By doing that, every one is an evil bastard that is 100 times worse than Hitler was. That is also how I view the real world. Instead of passing judgment on those that, do not believe as I do I attempt to understand why they act that way and see if I can assist them in seeing a different way of doings. Much as I hate to admit it, just like Kakarrot did with Piccolo and Vegeta amongst others.

[Horgus]

Tragedy of its snuffing out?

It's a relief.

About the only way to redeem the Saiyans would be to slaughter/imprison the adults and raise the kids from scratch.

Watch the Bardock movie, the soundtrack where Freeza's death ball cracks the crust of planet Vegeta is absolutely heart breaking.

Tell me that isn't a tragedy.

[Thanos6]

Tragedy of its snuffing out?

It's a relief.

About the only way to redeem the Saiyans would be to slaughter/imprison the adults and raise the kids from scratch.

Watch the Bardock movie, the soundtrack where Freeza's death ball cracks the crust of planet Vegeta is absolutely heart breaking.

Tell me that isn't a tragedy.

That's not a tragedy. It's like Stalin dropping a nuke on SS headquarters. It's evil but at the same time I'm not going to be shedding a tear.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Tragedy of its snuffing out?

It's a relief.

About the only way to redeem the Saiyans would be to slaughter/imprison the adults and raise the kids from scratch.

Like the humans in Dragon World was peaceful and was kind to everyone. Piccolo-Daimo would not have even born if the humans had not done what they did to the Nameccian child that became Kami and Piccolo. if you would ask him all of the humans could not have been redeemed and needed to be snuffed out.

[Thanos6]

Tragedy of its snuffing out?

It's a relief.

About the only way to redeem the Saiyans would be to slaughter/imprison the adults and raise the kids from scratch.

Like the humans in Dragon World was peaceful and was kind to everyone. Piccolo-Daimo would not have even born if the humans had not done what they did to the Nameccian child that became Kami and Piccolo. if you would ask him all of the humans could not have been redeemed and needed to snuffed out.

I never said humanity was perfect. It's nowhere near it. But it's also nowhere near the same scale of genocidal evil.