Character Bashing thoughts...? (More fanfic stuff)

johnboy1 · Post by **johnboy1** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:31 pm

How many Mary Sue's can spawn a three dimensional shadow of themselves? A shadow who hates everything that the Mary Sue loves? A shadow that's only purpose is to torture their mind by killing anyone they hold dear? That's my alter-ego, the Phantom of the Opera (not THE Phantom of the Opera, that's just the name he chose for himself [once again, you need to know the whole story]), and he has no purpose, no goal, no point, except to drive me mad.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:32 pm

So, wait, is the self-insertion character this "opposite of you", or are "you" in the story too?

Because if he's suppossed to be "your" total opposite, then exactly how evil is he going to be? A total opposite of me would not be trying to take over the world. He'd just be a moody bastard who constantly shouts at people and is shit at Mario Kart. Hardly worthy of Epic Fanfiction Villian Status.

parron wrote:v.v;;; Jeez, don't get so huffy about it. A Mary-Sue does not equal a Self Insert, simply because an insert is "you" and a Mary-Sue is "who you wish to be."

I am so far from "huffy" that I cannot see it. But to continue this thread...okay, you may be technically true that Mary-Sue is some sort of wish-fulfillment rather than just self-insertion. But I have never, ever, ever seen a self-insertion that didn't contain any element of wish-fulfillment to it. After all, if most of us were transported into the middle of a battle between Goku and Cell, we'd shit out pants and run and hide until it all finished. We wouldn't discover some form of inner-bravery that enabled us to stand up to Cell and then fight him with our just discovered Super Saiyan 2 abilities.

Johnboy1: Do this test, and tell us what score you get. And be honest.

parron · Post by **parron** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:40 pm

Sorry, I guess I miss-read you: it seemed to me that you were getting a little irate. Sorry... Anyway, yeah: A S.I often has MS qualities, but a MS is not always a SI.

>__> I wish the DBZ litmus test hadn't vanished... I've always wanted to see how my Original Characters rate on it, and it just isn't the same to take a Gargoyles litmus test or whatever.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:47 pm

Yeah, I was annoyed that the two DBZ ones had vanished.

However, the Gargoyles one is still useful. It's not that hard to change "Demora/Goliath falls for your character" to "Pan/Trunks falls for your character".

And if you score highly on a test designed for Gargoyles fanfiction, then you know that you are in trouble.

I still argue with your definition though. I will meet you with "A self-insertion isn't necessarily a Mary-Sue. However, every Mary-Sue is a self-insertion", but I do feel the need to point out that every single web-site that addresses this issue defines Mary-Sue as "self-insertion character that saves the day".

I am never irate though. I love discussions like this, and the only time I do get annoyed is when people mistake "discussions" for "arguments". Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I am sitting at the keyboard trying not to smash the monitor in rage.

oponok · Post by **oponok** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:50 pm

It's not that any of us want to crush your dreams, but crossovers generally just don't work, and I don't even read fanfiction. Nevermind crossing the Matrix, Dragonball Z, Harry Potter, Lord of The Rings and the like, which becomes so complicated, convoluted, and invokes so many possible plot holes that it's too hard to just write it all off if someone were to read the end product. It seems like there's no real room for drama because:

1) The odds and ends of intertwining these universes seems to require so much explanation it would take too much time from actual storytelling.

2) The characters feel, well, out of character.

3) It's difficult to stop thinking of the fact that a Super Saiyan Trunks, computer program Agent Smith, English wizard child Harry Potter, and mighty darklord Sauron would all coexist in a single, wondrous, fluffy little universe.

Yes, personally, I don't even like fanfiction at all. I think you're better off making your own stuff. Secondly, Dragonball Z, the Matrix, and Lord of The Rings should not be continued. They are complete works (though the last two Matrix movies could use some fixin'). There's a reason they're left completed (ignoring GT), and it's because the respective authors/creators felt it was best to end them, and so we should all learn from them (though humorous stuff is fine). Harry Potter, well, it's not done yet, but it will be some day, I guess.

Maybe this is just my assumption, but I'm guessing ALL fanfiction kind of takes characters out of character or adds what really isn't there (Trunks X Pan, Bra being an incredible fighter, Vegeta's romantic... err... non-hardass prick side).

I don't think putting Saiyan blood into a human will result in super powers. It's not like the knowledge and training behind Ki control spreads like AIDS or something.

And Vegeta would think his Saiyan blood is too good for us. And really, it is.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:57 pm

I dunno. While I agree that Vegeta would consider his Saiyan blood too good for us, he obviously didn't consider his Saiyan spunk to be too good for Bulma.

(And, er, sorry about that. I really don't want to drag this away from the original discussion, so let's stay on that, and put all thoughts of Vegeta's spunk out of our minds.)

johnboy1 · Post by **johnboy1** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 12:06 am

PsyLiam, I scored a 67 on the test.

However, I FINALLY got you on something. For that, ruining the ending is worth it. I DO NOT SAVE THE DAY! I get beaten, and I get beaten BAD. Sauron kicks the living tar out of me! He IS defeated at the end by a non-original character, but I KNOW you can't guess it. I don't THINK, I KNOW.

EDIT: Darn you, you edited over the response to which the above paragraph was designated.

The Mary Sue is ME. My opposite is an original (or nonoriginal, depending on how you look at it) character.

parron · Post by **parron** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 12:06 am

Well, I write continuation stories, so the point IS to add what isn't there -- the trick is to add it in a way that makes sense. Using the "OMG! Bra is the STRONGEST!!!1" example, most people just like to say "she's been trained all her life, but we never saw it." Which is, of course, a cop out. The trick is to give her a good reason to want to fight (say, someone kills her family, and Bra is very upset and wants revenge) and then doing it in stages. She's not going to wake up and be super powerful, after all.

In other words, basic character development. Just because it's not the official stuff doesn't mean that you can skip it.

The other point is to keep everyone as in character as you can manage -- I've even gotten myself a beta-reader who *just* does that. I know there's no way that I can keep everyone 100% the same as they were in the anime, but if I try hard enough then 95% is fine, y'know?

It's just that too many people think that Trunks and Pan (to use your other example) should have been married, but don't bother to think about the canon and characterization. >__> And so we get the hellish "I've been secretly in love with you!!!!111one!" as a result.

Anyway.

I still think that there is a difference between a SI and a MS for the points I've said before. It's just that, I guess, Mary-Sues aren't always self inserts, and self inserts are almost always Mary-Sues. I'm not saying you CAN'T call a SI a MS, just that there IS a difference between them and that to say all SIs are MS' is a little un-fair.

johnboy1 · Post by **johnboy1** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 2:25 am

*catches breath*

I just got back from reading the DB stories from Project AFTER. Holy coke-snorting shit!! Those are the single funniest "commentary skits" I've ever read. What I can't believe is that a bunch of morons actually wrote those steaming piles of horse droppings! Well, this has filled me with new vigor, for I know that no matter how badly my fanfuc turns out, it will still be a literary masterpiece compared to those servings of saltless tripe.

Problem is, it almost killed me. Seriously, I started choking on a sip of water when I laughed. For providing the link to it, I'm holding you directly responsible for my nearly-deadly experience, Dai, and will see your ass in court.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:46 am

There is something else, something rather harsh that has to be said. My newphew was watching DragonBall, and in the episode where it appears Tao Pai Pai kills Goku, he was really upset. Why? Because he thought Goku had died. And he liked Goku.

People who read fanfics do so primarily because they don't want to get used to a brand new universe, with original characters. They want to read about the characters they know and love from TV. They, frankly, don't give a flying fuck about Johnboy1. If they wanted new characters, they'd read original fiction. So while you getting beaten bad at the end of your fanfic is no doubt personal to you, your readers won't care. They'll just want to know if Goku is okay.

Dai · Post by **Dai** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:28 am

Well, PsyLiam, the thing with self insertion things is that the image your self-insertion character has is almost nothing like who you are in real life. Therefore, Mary Sue-writers can muck around with their characters as much as they like, and loathed though I am to admit it, they can actually add some depth to said character. Which, in turn makes certain readers care about what happens to them. Define them well enough and give them enough background and they could become well-plotted characters. The only gist is that to do this you would require an abnormally large ego and desire to write Mary Sues. If the reader, however, doesn't know it's a self insertion (Though they'll probably recognize it as a Mary Sue), they won't be barred from liking the character because of detest for the author inserting himself. It also would require the story to be extremely well written and plotted, with plenty of original twists. If it's badly written, nobody would give a rat's ass about what would even happen to Goku, because it isn't real to them. Write it well enough, and readers can even care about a Mary Sue. Thing is, though, with a cliched subject such as multidimension crossovers such as this, I doubt anyone could stay entirely true to each character yet form a well-plotted and solid story nonetheless. Thus, the Mary Sue would be a character nobody cares about.

That doesn't change the fact I am completely against fanfictions like it. Johnboy, you say your character gets beaten up, does bad things and therefore is not a Mary Sue. You forget: That's exactly what makes it a Mary Sue. By having you character do stuff like that, they have an enormous impact on the story. Any self-insertion character that does that is most definitely a Mary Sue.

Glad you liked Project AFTER, though. It at least shows you have a sense of humour. Sueing me won't accomplish much, though, except for me becoming really, really depressed.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 11:29 am

While you are correct that Mary-Sue's can be deeply plotted characters that the reader grows to like more than the regulars, the fact of the matter is that they almost never, ever are. People don't read Transformers fanfiction to learn about the exciting adventures of Steveimus Prime, who gets the Matrix off of Rodimus and is super and brilliant and great. They don't want to read about a new friend of The Powerpuff Girls who gets exposed to Chemical X and is super and brilliant and great. And they don't want to read about a brand new character who can turn Super Saiyan who earns the friendship of Goku and the grudging respect of Vegeta.

I've only seen on Mary-Sue work, and in that case the character was purely a comedy sidekick who did almost nothing important in the story. And even then, I suspect that he was a lot wittier than he would be in real life.

Kanzenshuu

Character Bashing thoughts...? (More fanfic stuff)

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