Broly Second Coming - SSJ2 or not?

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:39 pm

I know this subject has been beat to death already, but one of my subscriptions on youtube recently posted his thoughts on the subject and I don't remember it being brought up before here at the forum since I've been a member.

My personal thoughts

Screw the hair styles, no sparking no SSJ2

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:46 pm

Personally, I believe he was a Super Saiyan 2 in movie 10, and Toei forgot the lightning just like Toriyama did in the fight against Dabra. The next option to me is that Son Gohan is a dumb idiot for fighting Dabra and Broli without going full power.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:50 pm

Yeah that's a definite possibility that has crossed my mind, but then you have to get into the whole "is Broly stronger than SSJ2" argument, (which I think he most definitely isn't) which would be more strong evidence to support that he was only SSJ.

kaioken12 · Post by **kaioken12** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:55 pm

You mustn't forget that even a SSJ2 Gohan was incredibly "weak" at that point.

Still it makes no sense, but whatever... it's a movie, so I wouldn't think to hard about it.
Movie 10 especially is one of my favorites there because this era's Vegeta at least would have ripped Brolly apart imho.
Him and Piccolo not even showing up is a funny thing

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:03 pm

Broly isn't stronger than an SSj2, not even one who's been slacking. If Gohan were using SSj2 against Broly, he would have won. He didn't.

Saiyan-Professor wrote:The next option to me is that Son Gohan is a dumb idiot for fighting Dabra and Broli without going full power.

Yeah, pretty much. XD

kaioken12 · Post by **kaioken12** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:05 pm

I always got confused with Gohans Buu Saga SSJ2/SSJ1 behaviour anyways... I mean, showing off as SSJ2 against Kibito and then... SSJ1 against Dabra? xD

Him being an idiot seems likely :p

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:14 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Broly isn't stronger than an SSj2, not even one who's been slacking. If Gohan were using SSj2 against Broly, he would have won. He didn't.

Are you so sure? Let's compare powers here, shall we.

Perfect Cell, who's almost at full power, and Legendary-SSJ Broly both take pointblank Kamehame-Ha attacks from Cell Games era SSJ Goku. Perfect Cell has his head and some upper body blown completely away, along with a noticeable portion of his energy. Broly isn't fazed in the least. This implies Broly may be more powerful than Cell, and hence on par to SSJ2. Rather Gohan was using SSJ2 in movie 10 and rather Broly could or couldn't stand up to a SSJ is all a matter of opinion, end of story.

Screw the hair styles, no sparking no SSJ2

Screw the rules, I have green hair! Err, wait...

DBHighDefinition · Post by **DBHighDefinition** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:33 pm

Screw the rules, I have green hair! Err, wait...

Screw the rules, i have money!

kaioken12 · Post by **kaioken12** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:36 pm

No sparking no SSJ2 applied to the ANIME and especially to our movies where a SSJ1 has still black hair

isn't the best thing to do imho ^^

Vegeta SSJ2 didn't have lightning, Vegeta (Majin SSJ2) and Goku SSJ2 had no lightning at times... so even in the "original" series there are these faults

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:48 pm

kaioken12 wrote:No sparking no SSJ2 applied to the ANIME and especially to our movies where a SSJ1 has still black hair isn't the best thing to do imho ^^

Vegeta SSJ2 didn't have lightning, Vegeta (Majin SSJ2) and Goku SSJ2 had no lightning at times... so even in the "original" series there are these faults

Did Vegeta have lightning in movie 12 when he fought Janenba? It has been a while since I saw it. If not then there is precedence for Toei leaving out the lightning concerning anyone in the Super Saiyan 2 transformation in the movies and anime.

kaioken12 · Post by **kaioken12** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:52 pm

No he didn't.
Goku SSJ2 had at least SOME while against Kid Buu....
And half of the fight Goku/Majin Vegeta... and of course Gohan/Kibito...
And there was this one filler scene in Buu's mind where Goku and Vegeta clearly powered up to SSJ2 with lightning after already being SSJ1 (like in the manga) - but in the actual fight afterwards you don't see lightning at all.

But that's it I think - all other (supposed?!?) SSJ2 have no lightning, despite having it in the manga.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:56 pm

I think the folks at Toei just never really had it firmly set for them that "lightning = SSj2, no lightning = SSj1." And until Goku gave us the little lecture on what was what, it was kind of vague up to that point anyway.

kaioken12 · Post by **kaioken12** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:01 pm

I think it was also some kind of laziness.
I mean, it would have been more work and work is time is money.

Which other reason could be there not to make lightning in scenes where the manga clearly does?

(Being at Vegeta SSJ2 vs. Kid Buu, I also remember that in the manga his hands were moving, when he fired all these fireballs on Buu - it looked like his attack on Cell after Trunks was killed. In the anime I recall there was no movement like this at all... he just fired a lot of fireballs... so I think they just tried to save some money all over the place)

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:41 pm

For the Dabura fight I always assumed Gohan was still testing the waters by going SSj and not SSj2. As for the Broli fight in movie ten, that's a bit harder. It makes sense for him to use SSj2 but it could also be a case of him warming up, or maybe transforming to that form is too difficult to transform to so quickly.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:48 pm

Gohan could've been a SSJ2. The main reason why, is the fact that he specifically says "And here I've powered-up considerably", during his bout with SSJ Broly. If we follow the idea that Gohan was weaker then himself as a kid, he couldn't have been a SSJ, or he's just flat-out stupid.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:04 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:Broly isn't stronger than an SSj2, not even one who's been slacking. If Gohan were using SSj2 against Broly, he would have won. He didn't.
Are you so sure? Let's compare powers here, shall we.

Perfect Cell, who's almost at full power, and Legendary-SSJ Broly both take pointblank Kamehame-Ha attacks from Cell Games era SSJ Goku. Perfect Cell has his head and some upper body blown completely away, along with a noticeable portion of his energy. Broly isn't fazed in the least. This implies Broly may be more powerful than Cell, and hence on par to SSJ2. Rather Gohan was using SSJ2 in movie 10 and rather Broly could or couldn't stand up to a SSJ is all a matter of opinion, end of story.

Ehh...nothing suggests that movie 8 even had Cell in its continuity to begin with. In fact, Goku's face and hair are drawn as if he never entered the ROSAT.

As for the Kamehameha comparison, even if it was Goku from the Cell Games era, last I saw, SSJ2 Gohan kicked Cell's ass. It was only Super Perfect Cell that did "ok" before getting killed by an SSJ2. Using your logic, there's supporting evidence that Broly may or may not be stronger than regular Perfect Cell. Personally I think, since Goku going USSJ seems to be what defeated Broly, that Broly was merely a USSJ who didn't suffer from energy loss if he was angry.

As for SSJ2, am I the only one who thinks lightning is a power thing and not the rule for going SSJ2? My thinking is lack of lightning in SSJ2 means you're just not a powerful SSJ2.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:17 pm

Dayspring wrote:As for SSJ2, am I the only one who thinks lightning is a power thing and not the rule for going SSJ2? My thinking is lack of lightning in SSJ2 means you're just not a powerful SSJ2.

It's present every single time, including when Gohan goes SSJ2 at the World Tournament.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:21 pm

Vegeta lacked it (anime only) against the battle with Kid Buu, though.

I think it could easily not be drawn in the anime, but in the manga, every stated SSJ2 has the aura. The only time that can be referenced where that wasn't the case, was when Goku quickly changed to blow Yakon up, which wasn't even a real transformation.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:28 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Dayspring wrote:As for SSJ2, am I the only one who thinks lightning is a power thing and not the rule for going SSJ2? My thinking is lack of lightning in SSJ2 means you're just not a powerful SSJ2.
It's present every single time, including when Gohan goes SSJ2 at the World Tournament.

Yeah, but aside from when Vegeta first activates SSJ2, it's no longer present when he fights Kid Boo.

Also, do we see it when Goku killed Yakon? I can't remember.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:33 pm

Goku had no SSJ2 aura when he blew Yakon away.