Vegeta SSJ2 (Seven Years or Majin?)

[VegettoEX]

Is there ANY indication that Vegeta has been able to reach SSJ2 on his own (under his own power, sans-Majin) during the seven year time-period between Cell Games and Babidi?

We don't actually SEE him go to the stage until he has been put under the Majin charm...

[Fuujin]

In the Polish manga, the only indication would be his quote after Goku defeated Yakon: "So... Kakarotto ALSO suprassed Super Saiyan.", althrough he could be refering to Gohan.

[Ben Plante]

You know, I asked that on AFD once... it's a question with two possible answers... yet somehow I got about 80.

The most logical answer I can remember is that, yes, it was the Majin magic that make him go SSJ2, and the reason this was logical was because Vegeta did not know of Goku's SSJ3 form yet, and we also know he LET himself be Majin'd to obtain power that he BELIEVED to be equal to Goku. So it's a good assumption that before he was Majin'd, he did not have that power.

... Read it a few times, then it'll make sense, whether it's right or wrong.

[James R. Cadwell]

Dabura > SSJ Goku

Vegeta (so he says) > Dabura

I don't think Vegeta would have power comparable to SSJ2 Gohan at the first stage of Super Saiya-jin, so it seems like he'd have to be SSJ2 himself in order to beat Dabura.

[IncredibleGuy]

"So... Kakarotto ALSO suprassed Super Saiyan.",

That

Vegeta (so he says) > Dabura

That


And whatever I wrote in your sticky are indication that he had already obtained SS2.

[laserkid]

We adctually had this debate a while back but I dont remember where it was. As for me - if he ALREADY had SSJ2 - I dont think he'd accept the power of Majin unless he really thought he needed it and at this time none of us had any idea of SSJ3 - so if Vegeta had SSJ2 already he would not lower himself to a slave to Babidi (even if partial only the prince is to proud for that unless he NEEDED it).

Of course theres vlaid points on both sides but as for evidence, I see none.

as for "Kakarot also climbing the SSJ wall" line I would have to say is reffering to Gohan and Goku - because its said in the same pissy tone he has when everyones a super saiuyan except for him its more of a "DAMN IT Why cant I do it when the two of them have!"

[James R. Cadwell]

As for me - if he ALREADY had SSJ2 - I dont think he'd accept the power of Majin unless he really thought he needed it and at this time none of us had any idea of SSJ3 - so if Vegeta had SSJ2 already he would not lower himself to a slave to Babidi (even if partial only the prince is to proud for that unless he NEEDED it).

Why couldn't Vegeta be SSJ2 but still require more power to match Goku? SSJ Goku (Freeza Saga) wouldn't stand a chance against SSJ Vegeta (Cell Saga), and a similar difference could probably exist between two people at the second level of Super Saiya-jin.

[VegettoEX]

Yeah, that's the thing... I'm looking for hard, cold, EVIDENCE... not "This is what I think, and this is a conversation I had."

I do appreciate those, but it's not good enough to include in a guide .

[Deus ex Machina]

We adctually had this debate a while back but I dont remember where it was.

You're right, infact I was he one who started it.

SSJ2 Vegeta?

Of course there's no concrete evidence either way, for anime or manga, but there is a few interesting points.

We know at this time that both Goten and Trunks can sense Ki levels, and infact are following the Ki of their fathers battle to try and find them. At one point Trunks senses his fathers Ki, and then later on actually sees him fighting Boo. But aside from noting how strong he is, Trunks doesn't seem even a bit suprised by his fathers power.

Since we know Trunks can sense Ki, and there's such an incredible difference in power between SSJ and SSJ2, you could conclude by Trunks' reaction that he's seen his father become SSJ2 before.

[Fuujin]

Since we know Trunks can sense Ki, and there's such an incredible difference in power between SSJ and SSJ2, you could conclude by Trunks' reaction that he's seen his father become SSJ2 before.

Yes, but he's yung and inexperienced... For example, when Buu emerged from his "shell", Goku remarked that "this ki is different than what we are used to", when Trunks simply said something in the lines 'Whoa. Large ki."

[Dai]

Once again, you're thinking too far into this. If Toriyama had intended for Vegeta to go SSJ2 before Babidi's possession he would've made it quite clear. Since all that took place were a couple of lines that might possible have gotten close to something that mildly might have resembled something being close to a hint of him having become a SSJ2 before that, I think it's pretty damn safe to assume it was Babidi's possession that got him over the edge.

I can't really see why people even have this discussion. Do you really believe Toriyama is the kind of guy to only slightly, mistakenly, and interpretationally (if that's even a word) hint at important plot points that could affect the entire story?

[IncredibleGuy]

Well, Vegeta did say he got the powerup to close the SMALL gap between his and Kakarott's power. I sure as heck wouldn't describe SS2 as a small gap.

[TripleRach]

as for "Kakarot also climbing the SSJ wall" line I would have to say is reffering to Gohan and Goku - because its said in the same pissy tone he has when everyones a super saiuyan except for him its more of a "DAMN IT Why cant I do it when the two of them have!"

Actually, this is said in a rather calm tone, as if he's just noting it, and not shocked or angry or anything.

Another thing is, at one point in Babidi's ship (I believe just before Gohan fights), Vegeta scolds Gohan's slacking in his training, and says something along the lines of, "We [he and Gokuu] are the stronger ones now."

Also, there's a lot more to Vegeta's big speech than "I needed to get stronger", if you take a look at it. Yes, he says he wants to eliminate their gap in power. But there is also a big rant about how he needed to become evil and ruthless again. In fact, that rant comes after Gokuu tries to confirm that Vegeta allowed himself to be manipulated just for power.

It's not all clear cut and dry, but it seems to me that there is more hinting that he could than he couldn't. Unless Puipui was made to be much stronger, and their fight extended, I don't see much way it could have been shown in the story before his fight with Gokuu.

[Izlude]

Yeah, that's the thing... I'm looking for hard, cold, EVIDENCE... not "This is what I think, and this is a conversation I had."

I do appreciate those, but it's not good enough to include in a guide .

Go to Japan and ask Toriyama himself, but I wouldnt expect a good answer

Toriyama: Oh yeh...whats SSJ2 again? Did that come after SSJ3 or...err...damn...I need a Jack Daniels and a pack of smokes

[Janemba the Great]

The fact vegeta powered up to ssj2 with such carelessness before his fight with Goku began would make me assume he was already a ssj2. If the majin powerup gave him ssj2, then it would seem as though he would have started out at his max right as he went majin.

[*PINHEAD*]

I don't see the Super Saiyan 2 state as a definite, clear-cut "level" above Super Saiyan. I see it as SSJ powered up. I'm really indifferent to whether Vegeta turned SSJ2 or not, but I would assume he didn't. Son Goku and Vegeta's power was about the same when in SSJ2, and this "small gap" he is referring to is probably just a simplification, because by then their powers were so great even something big would be considered small (I'm really sleepy). Or he was just trying to make himself sound better by saying it was only a small gap. Or he was referring to their power when in equal states. If he did really attain SSJ2 before the Majin power up, he probably only accepted it to become ruthless and evil, as TripleRach said, since his attachment to Bulma and Trunks was sort of hindering his growth in power. His attachment to them made him more calm (in his own little way), while being evil allowed him more freedom to cut loose and do whatever the hell he wanted. But I think there's more hinting that he could not. Vegeta's always seemingly lagging behind in Super Saiyan states. Accepting the Majin power up and turning SSJ2 is his way of finally catching up.

[VegettoEX]

And yet there's still no conclusive evidence one way or the other... more of just "I think..." and "In my opinion..."

... which pretty much solidifies it, for me! There's nothing that specifically indicates whether or not he attained the stage before or after the charm.

[laserkid]

pretty much - you can find bits that you can interpret one way or the other but its not outright stated either way.

[Neon Z]

And yet there's still no conclusive evidence one way or the other... more of just "I think..." and "In my opinion..."

... which pretty much solidifies it, for me! There's nothing that specifically indicates whether or not he attained the stage before or after the charm.

What about this?

Dabura > SSJ Goku

Vegeta (so he says) > Dabura

I don't think Vegeta would have power comparable to SSJ2 Gohan at the first stage of Super Saiya-jin, so it seems like he'd have to be SSJ2 himself in order to beat Dabura.

[Dai]

You mean, despite the fact Vegeta has said that about every single opponent he ever faced, before being smashed into a witless pudding bleeding to death, and besides the fact Toriyama has made more mistakes in terms of power statements than there have been Gundam spin-offs?

Well then, yup. Sure.