T I E N

[Innagadadavida]

Well at least Bongo isn't in the word filter.

[Wojak]

The dub DIDN'T "disrespect" Dragonball.
In the States, there is a different culture, where mostly cartoons are for kids.
What did they do? They made Dragonball more directed to kids via dub, censoring and name-changing (Really, it would be a bit hard for a kid to remember "Tenshinhan").

No offense, but you guys really sound like obsessed psychopaths thinking of it as disrespect.
They bought the rights to a shounen series, and directed it towards the audience that watches cartoons in the States.
For them it was merchandise, and that did everything that they had right to do.
Nowhere was their actions illegal or wrong. If it was, they'd be sued already.
Then, if you feel ashamed or fooled because of having watched the dub, to find out that it's inaccurate: who cares.

Whether we say Tien, Tienshinhan or Tenshinhan, again, who cares.
We all know and can guess that it's the same three-eyed character in Dragonball.

But as I already said, it's terribly wrong to call it disrespect.
Funimation is a company, not a fan like you guys, and they do business, not fanservice.
And guess what? People buy the shit.

/Wojak

[Herms]

In the States, there is a different culture, where mostly cartoons are for kids.

And DragonBall is a cartoon for kids, so I don't see what that has to do with anything.

What did they do? They made Dragonball more directed to kids via dub, censoring and name-changing (Really, it would be a bit hard for a kid to remember "Tenshinhan").

Yet Viz made an English version of the DragonBall manga directed at kids, yet censored it far less and changed far fewer names than Funimation, and that went over fine (with the kids at least; I guess some parents complained). And look at Naruto: both manga and anime recieved nowhere near the amount of changes that Funimation did to DragonBall, and that didn't hurt the property's success in America, to say the least.

For them it was merchandise, and that did everything that they had right to do.
Nowhere was their actions illegal or wrong. If it was, they'd be sued already.

"Disrespectful" and "illegal" are considered very different conceptions, at least in America. That's basically what the 1st Amedment is all about.

Funimation is a company, not a fan like you guys, and they do business, not fanservice.
And guess what? People buy the shit.

And Viz is also a company, but they managed to stay in business while creating a far more accurate English version. And people, kids even, bought that shit too. Almost as if there was never anything horribly wrong with using the name "Tenshinhan" for an English-speaking young audience.

[Wojak]

In the States, there is a different culture, where mostly cartoons are for kids.

And DragonBall is a cartoon for kids, so I don't see what that has to do with anything.

What did they do? They made Dragonball more directed to kids via dub, censoring and name-changing (Really, it would be a bit hard for a kid to remember "Tenshinhan").

Yet Viz made an English version of the DragonBall manga directed at kids, yet censored it far less and changed far fewer names than Funimation, and that went over fine (with the kids at least; I guess some parents complained). And look at Naruto: both manga and anime recieved nowhere near the amount of changes that Funimation did to DragonBall, and that didn't hurt the property's success in America, to say the least.

For them it was merchandise, and that did everything that they had right to do.
Nowhere was their actions illegal or wrong. If it was, they'd be sued already.

"Disrespectful" and "illegal" are considered very different conceptions, at least in America. That's basically what the 1st Amedment is all about.

Funimation is a company, not a fan like you guys, and they do business, not fanservice.
And guess what? People buy the shit.

And Viz is also a company, but they managed to stay in business while creating a far more accurate English version. And people, kids even, bought that shit too. Almost as if there was never anything horribly wrong with using the name "Tenshinhan" for an English-speaking young audience.

You misunderstood the "for kids" part. Dragonball is, as I actually said in my post, a shounen series.
I am sure that Viz and Funimation are different companies, and that they gave out their media with different lines. We could wish that they were identical, but face it, a manga series and an anime series are different things.
They have the merchandise and can do whatever what they want with it.
In America, if you buy a canned soup, you can choose to eat it, or do whatever you want with it, as it's not illegal.
The first emendement says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Where is the disrespect in Viz using what they have bought the rights of? Can you pinpoint which sentence that says that when having the rights of something, it's disrespectful to use it?

Sure, Naruto did fine and other latter animes aswell, but they came later than Dragonball.

[Herms]

You misunderstood the "for kids" part. Dragonball is, as I actually said in my post, a shounen series.

How have I misunderstood? You said that due to cultural differences, in America cartoons are seen as being for kids, and I pointed out that since DragonBall is aimed for kids anyway, that particular cultural difference is irrelevent here. A shounen series is by definition aimed at young boys, which is, as you said, also the traditional audience of cartoons in American (well, maybe minus the 'boys' part).

I am sure that Viz and Funimation are different companies, and that they gave out their media with different lines. We could wish that they were identical, but face it, a manga series and an anime series are different things.

My point is that if Viz could make a fairly faithful English version of DragonBall and be successful with it, then it shows there's no reason Funi couldn't have done the same. Anime and manga may be different mediums, but in the case of the DragonBall manga and anime, they're similiar productst that tell almost the exact same story and are marketed towards the same audience, so I don't think that's relevent. And to bring up Naruto again, Viz handles both the manga and anime for that, and they were able to give the anime a faithful dub, and have it broadcast on television with much less changes than Funi did with DragonBall. I don't see any support for the idea that anime would recquire more censorship or changes than manga.

The first emendement says:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Where is the disrespect in Viz using what they have bought the rights of? Can you pinpoint which sentence that says that when having the rights of something, it's disrespectful to use it?

OK, let's clear this up: throughout the thread, various people said that Funimation's handling of DragonBall was 'disrespectful'. You then commented, saying that there was nothing illegal about what Funimation had done. The problem is, nobody had said anything at all suggesting that what Funimation did with DragonBall was illegal, because 'disrespectful' and 'illegal' are two completely different things. I pointed this out, bringing up by way of example the first amendment, which among other things gives people the right to freedom of speech, meaning you can be as rude towards people as you want and noone can ever arrest you (this is admittidly a bad example, because the kind of disrespect Captain Awesome and the others were talking about in regards to Funimation is different than being disrespectful towards people, but whatever).

Sure, Naruto did fine and other latter animes aswell, but they came later than Dragonball.

I know that the climate has changed for adapting anime and that censorship and random changes aren't as common as the used to be, but the whole reason for that change was that companies discovered that keeping the English version faithful to the original actually got a very positive response from fans.

[Wojak]

So, in the end we agree that Funimation's handling of the Dragonball anime was because of how they handled anine at that era, right?

Also, as you said about the cultural differencies, cartoon for kids in Japan and the same in USA are not the same thing.

I understand that Viz made a better job, but we are talking about two different companies here, with different lines to follow.
All I can do is to say thanks for Funi for trying and bringing Dragonball to the states (making it big, that is, they weren't the first first ones), and kudos for Viz for succeeding.
This leads to my conclusion that it's not "dumb" with inaccurate dub names.
They did it their way, simply.

About the illegal thing, I wasn't referring to an actual comment, but meant more like to express a phrase like "so sue me!", inferring that even though some people thought that it was "disrespectful", they should change their perspective a little and try to see Funi as a company, not a bunch of persons that "wanted to make crap out of Dragonball".
They had a concept, and apparently it failed a bit.

I guess that with this I am done here!

[Herms]

So, in the end we agree that Funimation's handling of the Dragonball anime was because of how they handled anine at that era, right?

Also, as you said about the cultural differencies, cartoon for kids in Japan and the same in USA are not the same thing.

I understand that Viz made a better job, but we are talking about two different companies here, with different lines to follow.
All I can do is to say thanks for Funi for trying and bringing Dragonball to the states (making it big, that is, they weren't the first first ones), and kudos for Viz for succeeding.
This leads to my conclusion that it's not "dumb" with inaccurate dub names.
They did it their way, simply.

DragonBall has been extremely successful all over the world, so I think it would have done well to some degree in American pretty much any way they handled it. But I'd argue that how they handled DragonBall actually hurt its long-term popularity in America, as it is frequently disliked and looked down upon by American anime fans in large part due to things that originate or were magnified by the dub. And it's not like Funimation has some inherent, set in stone way of doing things. Their approach has changed over time. They keep handling DragonBall the same way out of pure inertia it seems, but with pretty much all their other anime properties they are considerably more faithful to the original nowadays. In a talk he gave during one of his anime con appearences, Sonny Strait said that this change in approach was due to their dub of Fruits Backet getting an extremely positive fan response, in large part due to the efforts made to make it faithful to the original. If DragonBall were a title that Funi were just picking up today, they would most likely treat it much better. And it's not like this is something that was impossible back in the old days. Back then, Pioneer was releasing series like Tenchi and Ranma 1/2, which had pretty faithful English versions. The TV broadcasts were edited, but the VHS/DVDs were uncut from the very start, something Funimation didn't get around to doing with DragonBall for a long time. So basically, Funi treats their properties good today, and they could have at least potentially done so back then. They don't have some "line to follow", they're a company that actively makes decisions about what direction they want to take. When they make good decisions with their properties, we praise them, when they make bad ones, we criticise them, and when they make downright stupid ones, we call them out on it. That's all there is to it.

[Wojak]

But is changing the name of Tenshinhan to Tien Shinhan or Tien really that dumb?
Ever thought of that they don't call Goku for "Son Goku" all the time, or that Piccolo calls him "Son" sometimes?
Ever heard someone confused over which name was correct of "Son", "Son Goku" and "Goku"?
I know that Son is his last name and Goku his first, but it really shortening Tenshinhan's name such a big of a deal?

It's like saying that it's dumb to call someone called Michael for Mike.

Personally I call him Tenshinhan, because of that's the first variation of his name I heard. But I never got confused with the name "Tien", not thought that it was dumb or even worth critisizing.

I would rather debate whether the censoring of the anime was nessecary or something that actually matters for the story.

[Taku128]

In a talk he gave during one of his anime con appearences, Terry Klassen said that this change in approach was due to their dub of Fruits Backet getting an extremely positive fan response, in large part due to the efforts made to make it faithful to the original.

Actually I'm pretty sure that was Sonny Strait.

[Tweaker]

I like how I wrote this gigantic post that should have summed up the matter, and, somehow, this argument is still going on.

Did anyone even read it?

[Innagadadavida]

I think you're also forgetting, while there is significant crossover, Manga and Cartoons appeal to different groups. Comic readers are older, while Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z on TV appeals to a much wider audience. Therefore it should be expected that they would be treated differently, especially because there are two different companies with a different base to appeal to.

[Herms]

But is changing the name of Tenshinhan to Tien Shinhan or Tien really that dumb?

It was never necessary, is what I'm saying.

Actually I'm pretty sure that was Sonny Strait.

Darn it, you're right. I'm getting my Krillin voice actors mixed up.

I like how I wrote this gigantic post that should have summed up the matter, and, somehow, this argument is still going on.

This is all really just a cynical attempt to increase my post count. All the top posters are always getting into long, pointlessly protracted arguements, so I figured I should follow suit (I'm kidding of course [probably]).

To be serious, even if you think you've summed everything up, that doesn't mean you have. It's rather arrogant to think that your post ought to put an end to the discussion.

[Tweaker]

To be serious, even if you think you've summed everything up, that doesn't mean you have. It's rather arrogant to think that your post ought to put an end to the discussion.

How haven't I, though? Mike owns the site, Mike put the filter there; the name of the character is Tenshinhan, and that is why the filter is there--to correct a factual error imposed by FUNimation's liberal dubbing practices. When you're on a forum that strives for factual accuracy, such a thing only makes sense.

All the other factors--such as if it's disrespectful, why, and what purpose there is in changing the name--are irrelevant. The pertinent factors lead to a conclusion of "this filter exists to correct factual error," plain and simple. The factual error being, of course, that the character's name is Tien--this is is not true, of course, because the character's name is Tenshinhan.

I don't know how many times I can try and clarify the same thing, but the discussion of why this word filter exists and the discussion on the reasoning or effects of the dub's name change are two totally different subjects. They don't really tie into each other once the facts are laid down (as I illustrated above).

[Wojak]

But is changing the name of Tenshinhan to Tien Shinhan or Tien really that dumb?

It was never necessary, is what I'm saying.

That's what you believe, in the end.
They may have thought it was necessary, even though I have yet to see a reason for that.
Some people may think it was so, some people may not.
But calling something "dumb" (which was what I reacted to the most) is childish.
I guess that they wanted to make a cool nickname a' la Turtles for Tenshinhan, hence calling him Tien.
Look at this: Raphael = Raph, Michaelangelo = Mike, Donatello=Don, Leonardo= Leo.
So they may have thought that it was necessary to make his name cooler, for some kind of reason.
Now, after it has happened, it's easy to say it wasn't necessary, which they couldn't have known before they tried.

[JulieYBM]

This isn't going anywhere. The fact is this forum is run by VegettoEX who uses the word filter to his own liking. You don't have to like it.

[Taku128]

There's also a word filter on Gokou, so it's not just dub names.

[NeptuneKai]

There's also a word filter on Gokou, so it's not just dub names.

Oh wow I never knew that. I wonder why Mr.EX didn't put word filters on "Fasha" which is by far one of the dumbest name change.

[Wojak]

There's also a word filter on Gokou, so it's not just dub names.

Oh wow I never knew that. I wonder why Mr.EX didn't put word filters on "Fasha" which is by far one of the dumbest name change.

Fasha is a real name, so it would be discrimination to filter it.

[Adamant]

As for "Fasha"...

I have no problem with the word filter so it doesn't matter what happens with this whole situation, but if we were able to use Tien would anybody not know what we're talking about?

The only reason I know the existance of the name at all is from someone here quoting an Atari press release or something, and someone else asking who this "Fasha" was.

Both that, "Kogu" (A name I had completely forgotten about until someone linked to Gokua's Dragonball Wikia page a couple days ago) and probably a couple others are ridiculously obscure names so far removed from the originals one can't realistically expect people to understand who's being referred to at all times, and I can fully imagine someone not understanding who "Tien" is if it's not clear from the post. It's not THAT close to the original.

[Casual Matt]

There's also a word filter on Gokou, so it's not just dub names.

Largely because Gokou is pretty much wrong, despite the fact that it was once widely used.

I don't know how that spelling ever got used. Would "kou" be a long "o" sound? His name is clearly pronounced "Gokuu" with a long "u" sound.

There's also a word filter on Gokou, so it's not just dub names.

Oh wow I never knew that. I wonder why Mr.EX didn't put word filters on "Fasha" which is by far one of the dumbest name change.

Fasha is a real name, so it would be discrimination to filter it.

Fasha still annoys me far more than anything like Tien.