Christmas blues :(

[Tweaker]

*sighs*

Seriously, can we get this locked now? This is beyond an argument now; this is a free-for-all toilet for people to take gigantic steaming dumps on now.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Pitzu.



Everyone, you are not being the better person if you lower yourself to the other's level and start insulting them, or growing impatient with them, or arguing with them. I stopped reading this thread during page 1, came to this last page to see why it kept staying at the top, and it's childish crap on everybody. Especially the OP, sure, but frankly the rest of you aren't really impressing me either.

[Kendamu]

Pitzu.



Everyone, you are not being the better person if you lower yourself to the other's level and start insulting them, or growing impatient with them, or arguing with them. I stopped reading this thread during page 1, came to this last page to see why it kept staying at the top, and it's childish crap on everybody. Especially the OP, sure, but frankly the rest of you aren't really impressing me either.

Well, I'm not here to impress you.

[Pitzu]

Pitzu.

Yeah, I know.
I had to, I mean, you saw the picture.
I felt the thread had degenerated enough for it to not really matter.

[SSJ2bardock]

Pitzu.



Everyone, you are not being the better person if you lower yourself to the other's level and start insulting them, or growing impatient with them, or arguing with them. I stopped reading this thread during page 1, came to this last page to see why it kept staying at the top, and it's childish crap on everybody. Especially the OP, sure, but frankly the rest of you aren't really impressing me either.

Well, I'm not here to impress you.

Why are we arguing with each other now? Seriously, there's no need for hostility.

[JAPPO]

I love you guys.

[Kendamu]

I love you guys.

I love you, too, you DBE-loving bastard.

[SSJ2bardock]

How this thread hasn't been locked yet is truly amazing, one could even go as far as saying it's the 8th Wonder of the modern world.

[Dr. Casey]

Hmm. You know, I like this Rena girl. There's no doubt that people were being jerks on the first page, and I agree with much of what she says. It's been a long annoyance of mine for people to give "Uhh... wtf is your point?" responses to attempts at sparking conversation. That does fall under basic social etiquette. Is there seriously nothing else you people could have said? No "Which of those figures are you looking forward to the most", no "Yeah, the same thing's happened to me," no questions or comments, no anything? Was "wat is ur point lol" the only possible response in your repertoire? Picking up the slack is just a basic aspect of conversation. I mean, she did write her message in plain English. It had a clear message. It should have been a simple task (For anyone who'd rather not make a person feel like an idiot just for attempting to strike up an innocent conversation, anyway) to use their brain for ten seconds and come up with a way to politely continue the discussion. The initial responses were hardly justified, and I understand Rena's frustration.

With that said, Rena, this display of douchebaggery is uncharacteristic of the Daizenshuu forums. I agree that an obvious hook to latch upon should not be required for a person to continue the flow of conversation. I agree that people in general do a poor job of defending their arguments; I often grow tired of people making blanket, unreasonable statements as though those claims are self-evident (I think the people in here have done a good job defending themselves, but that's beside the point). However, these problems you're crusading against are issues that you will almost certainly never come across a second time should you continue your stay at Daizenshuu. This is a community both friendly and intelligent. It's true that people shouldn't have responded the way they did, but such a response isn't the norm here. Let's say that 1 out of every 1,000,000,000 meteors fall upon a human being. This thread could be equated to that one meteor. I don't think it should be too troublesome to forgive a consistently pleasant group for one screw-up. And while people might not respond quite as directly to your arguments as you would like, also keep in mind that they're less inclined to do so because it's a heated argument. I don't think a discussion, argument, or debate about something related to Dragon Ball would play out in nearly the same fashion.

So... I'd be glad if you would let the issue drop. That's not because I think you're in the wrong here, because I understand both your arguments and growing sense of frustration. I just think this argument is unnecessary regardless of who's right or wrong because, this one unfortunate freak occurence aside, you could fit into this community perfectly fine. In fact, I have no doubt that you would be a great addition to Daizenshuu. You're already one of my favorite posters after reading this thread, and I'm sure that same opinion will be shared by more people than just me if you stick around for a while. I don't want to see you get banned or, for no good reason, migrate to another forum. I want to see you discuss Dragon Ball with the same passion and intelligence that you've displayed in this thread.

[Captain Awesome]

This argument is a waste of everyone's time, we can't have a discussion if Rena continues to ignore every single valid point against her "argument" which at this point in time makes next to no sense.

I'm at a loss as to how Rena has the audacity to attempt to take the high road, after the way she's continually insulted people who have brought up completely valid counter points to her completely incoherent mish-mash of a tirade, every single response from a user that completely and utterly invalidates her little crusade is ignored, as she continues to rant nonsensically.

To place the blame on members of the forum for her outbursts is ridiculous, she's had her little agenda from the beginning, some people may have fuelled the fire, but it's Rena that continues to pick and choose from people's responses to her rantings, just to prolong the argument.

This has always been about Rena's personal problems and has absolutely nothing to do with this forum, or any of the members on it.

[VegettoEX]

Rena is absolutely right in that some of you have dropped to a level that is beyond comprehension. Since when has it ever been acceptable on this board to post up random images and act like the traditional "internet culture" that this board does everything to avoid?

At the same time, none of that even remotely came close to happening until a certain person went on a crusade over a name spelling and not getting enough sympathy for presents not arriving on time.

If you can't contribute, don't post. Your internet jokes aren't funny. Your irrelevant comments aren't funny.

I completely stand by my last two posts in this thread, and the fact that Rena constantly calls for personal attention and direct responses from me (all the while creating an illogical persona for me which simply doesn't exist, along with being a "USELESS FUCKING SHITHEAD")... yet... can't be bothered, among the post after post after post after post after post of responses, to do the same in return...?

You want personal attention and direct responses, but refuse to do the same in return. You want us to educate everyone here, but then when it's showcased how and why that's being done, it's either completely ignored or weaseled around. You toss out straw man after appeal to probability after false dichotomy and on and on and on.

I have very little patience left.

[Rena Rune]

I wasn't going to come back at all after this, but Tweaker told me about Dr. Casey's post, and I read that VegettoEX finally seems to be realising how ridiculous this is. Good on ya, mate. Unfortunately, he still continues to attack the underdog, as does this guy:

You want personal attention and direct responses, but refuse to do the same in return. You want us to educate everyone here, but then when it's showcased how and why that's being done, it's either completely ignored or weaseled around. You toss out straw man after appeal to probability after false dichotomy and on and on and on. [/qute]

Actually, I do that. If you bothered to read any of my posts, I actually quote individual sections and deal with those points.

And you're running out of patience? You can do what you like, and you're already using your power to bully someone. What more do you want? My last reply was half insane, yet apparently you can' t understand that someone else might be loosing patience with YOU.

This argument is a waste of everyone's time, we can't have a discussion if Rena continues to ignore every single valid point against her "argument" which at this point in time makes next to no sense.

I'm at a loss as to how Rena has the audacity to attempt to take the high road, after the way she's continually insulted people who have brought up completely valid counter points to her completely incoherent mish-mash of a tirade, every single response from a user that completely and utterly invalidates her little crusade is ignored, as she continues to rant nonsensically.

To place the blame on members of the forum for her outbursts is ridiculous, she's had her little agenda from the beginning, some people may have fuelled the fire, but it's Rena that continues to pick and choose from people's responses to her rantings, just to prolong the argument.

This has always been about Rena's personal problems and has absolutely nothing to do with this forum, or any of the members on it.

Posts like this are exactly why arguments like this turn to shit. They contain 0 content relevant to the thread, and contribute nothing to even the off topic discussion.

What you describe is EXACTLY what other people were doing to me.

Honestly there is one basic piece of evidence supporting this - my posts are much longer, and contain more posts. If I was the one who was "picking and choosing". And quite frankly, when an ENTIRE BOARD is against you, you have no choice to pick and choose.

Going to the trouble of dealing them, having people ignore my counter replies and then having a bandwagoner say "No, its you that are like that " is incredibly frustrating.

The only really useful posts, aside from maybe this one, are posts that go through the other person's argument point by point. This dude seems to imply that, but is contradicting himself by heckling from the sidelines, not actually debunking or proving anything that wa said. If you don't quote, and deal with specific points like I did, your reply could be copy and pasted into ANY thread. That's not really a good argument then, is it?

People need to learn to think for themselves, this is why and I hope at least some of you have realised how insane a simple, friendly thread can get through the force of your own anality.

Either way, there is little point in me coming back to this forum. When I actually go to trouble of dealing with people's points, and people just reiterate the same argument,and then have the nerve to accuse me of NOT dealing with people's points, that's beyond delusional. But if it's majority consensus, it MUST be true right?

There is simply no way to reason with VegettoEX or the majority of posters in this thread. You just ignore my points, flame me, drive me insane, then claim that I ignore your points. Anytime I actually prove something, you ignore it.

I cannot post somewhere that fights dirty like that. This place is impossible, and you'll be happy to hear you've lost a member.

Oh, and Rena, the whole "rebel against everything" attitude died in the late 70s. You know why? Because the hippies grew up. Despite what you might think (or what your philosophy teacher may have taught you), the tendency to question everything isn't mature. It's infantile.

Wow, so scientists are immature then? Conservative social conditioning exists basically to get people to think questioning things isn't immature. Compare the "maturity" of a religious fundamentalist, to a research graduate. Who is going to come out on top, and who does the more questioning?

Why exactly is it immature to question everything? Why is it immature? Have you ever hear of "Critical Thinking"?

If this is the attitude on this forum, you are beyond saving, at least by my means. It is pointless arguing here when people just ignore my points, and childishly accuse me of doing the same.


Insulting someone isn't immature, the problem is when people don't listen to reason, that's all that's left.

Let's just say I want to prove the earth revolves around the sun. I show you theoretical evidence, you ignore it. I show you a series of stills from a far away satellite made into a video, you ignore. Then you claim I'm the one not showing evidence. The majority believes the sun revolves around the earth, so it becomes fact. This is what's happening here. When this happens with ANYTHING, no matter how small, it shows people aren't thinking for themselves.

This is what the "Big issue" is. I have no reason to act out to a bunch of immature dragonball fans, I'm not bandwagoning. If anyone bothered to read my posts in detail, you'd see I'd actually thought my points out.

I don't cookie cut my responses. I hold stances on controversial issues that are in stark contrast to the social norm. I disagree with you because you are making a mountain out of a mole hill and just now you're trying to carry that mountain onto capitol hill.

How is an entire forum of people that don't question how it's run, many of whom have no respect for logic and formal debate, not a big issue? And what abot everyone actin retarded to my first post? Isn't that overblowing it?

This is one of the most ridiculous forums I've been on. I went to MFG but it's almost all Dragonball Z Powerlevel discussion. So where else am I meant to go exactly? How is it fair I don't have a good alternative? Why wouldn't it be better if people here were just friendly.

Someone mentioned if you guys are all the things I called you, why bother. That's a horrible way of thinking. If you really are a prick, an asshole, elitist, immautre, then stop being that way! Actually look at your behaviour, and change it, we can all improve. Even if you don't believe I'm doing that, YOU still should. There are so many excuses here. I only call people pricks if they deserve it, and because the argument was quickly dragged down to that level by people who refused to listen to reason.

If you people were better than me, this thread wouldn't be such a shit heap. You wouldn't be attacking me like vicious zerglings and would be instead intellectually debunking what I'm saying. You wouldn't be falling back on conservative idiocy like "REBELLION IS SO OUT OF FASHION", but proving to me exactly how my "rebellion" in this instance is based on invalid reasoning.

You're not doing that. Only a small handful of posts have taken my posts apart point by point, and even ten, they've just ignored what they're quoting and are doing it for show.

People don't understand how arguments work. You seem to think that if you take somethin I'm saying, state YOUR opinion, that somehow encounters it. And if you're in the majority, you win! You don't understand what REASONING is.

I wouldn't be making these lengthy posts explaining my thought process if I was simply being pointlessly rebellious or immature.

If Mike was a good admin, he wouldn't allow posts like "Captain Awesome's". Why? It's nothing but trolling. Nothing in there actually takes what I'm saying and debunks or agrees with it. It's just shitflinging. I might call people idiots, but that's because you ARE acting stupid, and I show why I think you are acting stupid. I believe in being nice to niceness, and being hard on harshness, but in a way that's reasonable. I can't even fathom what the social standards are here, but they're borderline group insanity.

(because he deleted my post of why Family Guy is terrible.) WHAT A CLOSED MINDED DRONE!!!!

*facepalm*

I don't think you realise that you've lost an intelligent, normally friendly member. The only times I've lashed out here is in places where their was a lack of reasoning, or general forcefulness.

My beliefs are very against this form of groupthink, and authoritarianism. These are my beliefs, I believe in harmony through discord and balancing chaos with order instead of order for order's sake.

The LEAST you could do is not insult my beliefs, claiming they're childish rebellion. If anything, they're derived from Discordianism(and other sources), a perfectly valid "spiritual"/philosophical movement. If I were to go blasting Christians, a religion that's often implied upon people by society instead of taken up voluntarily, I'd get flamed. But an ideology that I sought out for myself and genuinely agree with, that's okay? I'm not blasting people for having a viewpoint. I'm blasting people for forcing their viewpoint and not even backing it up properly, same as the Ten argument.

If you can prove these notions wrong, then maybe you can call them insane, or childish. But if you're going to do what that conservative moron did and say free thinking died out in the 70s, that's not a valid, logical point.

Oh, and Rena, the whole "rebel against everything" attitude died in the late 70s. You know why? Because the hippies grew up. Despite what you might think (or what your philosophy teacher may have taught you), the tendency to question everything isn't mature. It's infantile.

This is not a valid, logical point of view, because it is not backed up with reason. There is no why or because(except a ludicrous one which is in turn unbacked, and is bigotry in of itself), which I do provide at least some degree.

The idea of "Growing up" is used by conservatives as a goading tactic to get people to agree with them. After all, nobody wants to be immature - this is in of itself based on the bigotry that we should ignore the points of views of young people. Plus, babies cry, which is sort of like whining, so we can counter EVERY SINGLE COMPLAINT ever with this too!

It's rubbish. If all you can do is write views off of immature just because they're associated with an older trend, you shouldn't be arguing.

This is my problem with this forum, and to an extent, the internet as a whole, and perhaps humanity as a whole. Basically DaizEx amplifies one of the things I really dislike about people.

[JulieYBM]

Does it escape you, Rena Rune, that this thread is no longer about Dragonball and thus needs closing? As a concerned citizen I am quite fed up with such durations.

[Rena Rune]

Does it escape you, Rena Rune, that this thread is no longer about Dragonball and thus needs closing? As a concerned citizen I am quite fed up with such durations.

I'm not the one who can close this or I would have done so long ago. I'm also not the one who veered it off topic.

[JulieYBM]

Does it escape you, Rena Rune, that this thread is no longer about Dragonball and thus needs closing? As a concerned citizen I am quite fed up with such durations.

I'm not the one who can close this or I would have done so long ago. I'm also not the one who veered it off topic.

You can just as easily not reply and allow the topic to die.

[Rena Rune]

Does it escape you, Rena Rune, that this thread is no longer about Dragonball and thus needs closing? As a concerned citizen I am quite fed up with such durations.

I'm not the one who can close this or I would have done so long ago. I'm also not the one who veered it off topic.

You can just as easily not reply and allow the topic to die.

Yeah, but if it gets too out of hand it should be locked anyway.

Plus, I believe what I said needed to be said. I probably won't be coming back here, for a long time, so it's no big deal. There is no way I could fit in on this forum.

And goddamn I wish there were threads on MFG that weren't all Pow0r levels.

[Kendamu]

Let this thread die. Lurk more. Learn the culture. Then post.

[Rena Rune]

Never said you were at a lower level. But, you're certainly displaying "lower" qualities by getting so angry that you have to yell at me.

That's a "lower" quality enduced by other people. There's only so much sheer illogic a person like me can take.

Go to MFG, then. Problem solved.

Constant pow0r levels

Yes. I know that I agreed to the rules of this place when I joined and, when I have a problem with them, I take them up with the guy in charge because he's a human being who will listen to me and explain his side of the story and help reach an agreement with me. He also doesn't resort to all-caps when he disagrees with me.

But he doesn't. In the Tenshinhan thread, he ignored everyone that disagreed with him for ages - it was someone else that pointed that out.

Sounds like you know a different Mike than I do. He posted in a very understanding way in this thread earlier and allowed us to resolve this ourselves. You're not helping matters at all by getting angry like this.

Style over Substance, quite frankly. An argument is just as valid is expressed extremely as mildly. It's just impossible to do that right now.

Posting on a forum about a comic book isn't nearly as serious of an action as taking a human life. I don't think taking a human life applies to what's going on here.

But the same thinking here could lead to a loss of life. The same kind of reasoning here results in rash decisions by parents, politicans and public officials.

It is important to be a critical thinker.

So, then, you don't do things out of free will? Who's the real drone, then?

You missed the point. The point is, it's irrelevant if someone says if they're thinking for themselves. No effective social conditioning has someone believe they're a drone. How would that work exactly?

What you look for in terms of drone like behaviour, is it someone tries to right your behaviour off as childish rebellion without providing any backing. That's a defensive mechanism.

No but seriously your "ROW ROW FIGHT DA' POWA" shit isn't cute. You're not the unique little rebellious flower you think you are and I'm surprised you're not banned yet because as Jappo's pointed out you've broken nearly every rule.

This is evidence of drone like behaviour. Trying to shove an opposing opinion into an unpleasan pigeon hole. You think your post is intelligent? Then why isn't it quoting what I'm actually saying and debunking it?

[Kendamu]

Hey. I'm not gonna fight you over this anymore. Just let it go. Nobody really cares anymore.

[Rena Rune]

Hey. I'm not gonna fight you over this anymore. Just let it go. Nobody really cares anymore.

I don't think any of you know what you're arguing about.

My points were:

1) This forum is excessively unfriendly. Rules are meant to keep the peace on the forum. If insisting the rules in an unfriendly manner is the way people go about them, then the point of the rules is defeated. Some people do not like to feel caved in on a new forum.

2) Giving a free pass to an admin to do as they please is a bad idea. No matter how much you insist it's their private property, there is still no logical defense for why that means they can do things like encourage bullying on a forum. As long as one thing an admin can do wrong exists, like posting child porn on their forum, it shows a level of fallibility. Moreover, when there is a limited supply of forums, admins should be responsible, as there may not be . Fairness is more important than "property", as similar to rules, the only point of rights is to be fair. Also, when people carry the attitudes on your forum to other forums, (as with blakdragon) it becomes a wider issue. Rules do not take precedence over ethics, as rules should only exist to uphold ethics.

3) The proper way to argue is to make points, and counter those points with reasoning or evidence. Making posts that just widely blast someone's argument as "immature" is bad form of debate. Anyone can just call someone challenging the norm "immature" and bring up some ridiculous implication of being obsessed with authority. Bandwagoning is bad. If someone's already said what you're going to, don't bother. It's unfair for one person to have to fend off a whole forum. Majority shouldn't always rule.

Nobody really debunked any of these things.