SSJ Goku(Buu saga)?

[Saiyan-Professor]

...Yes, Goku can become a bit stronger by continuing to train his SSJ form, but he will never get the kind of massive boosts that he got in the time chamber, just like his base form will never get the kind of boosts he got in the Namek Saga.

Herms said that the Daizenshuu states that near-death power ups were still in existence but they were few and not as great in what they yielded in the past. Therefore, any strength they attained post-Namek Saga was through harsh training.

[Kaboom]

This is how I see it.

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k85/R ... 7/lodr.jpg

Yes, Goku can become a bit stronger by continuing to train his SSJ form, but he will never get the kind of massive boosts that he got in the time chamber, just like his base form will never get the kind of boosts he got in the Namek Saga.

Pictures make everything SO much clearer.

[Bussani]

While I agree that the Professor and Onikage's method does make sense (in fact, it was the belief I used to subscribe to myself), my mind changed after reading the manga all the way through. This part doesn't make so much sense to me if it's just a straight multiplier (from the Viz manga):

Piccolo: Don't underestimate it Vegeta. Cell is far stronger than the Androids -- and you were powerless against them.
Vegeta: Don't you preach at me! Do you want me to start with you!? I will top myself...mark my words... I will transcend the Super Saiyan!
...
Piccolo: Is he serious? Can that even be done? Transcending the Super Saiyan state...!?

If SSJ was just a straight and constant multiplier of power, why even bothering trying to push beyond it? Why would it even occur to them that it might be possible? Wouldn't it make more sense to just train their base forms until the multiplied power gain was enough?

Admittedly though, it does work either way. At least in the manga. If we take filler and GT into account, then the Professor's way might make more sense. Personally I prefer the idea that they have to push beyond their limits to reach new power, rather than transformations just being a shortcut to greater power like kaioken. But yeah, preferring it doesn't mean it's right.

I do think whatever way is right, though, that Rocketman's chart fits into it somehow.

[Saiyan-Professor]

While I agree that the Professor and Onikage's method does make sense (in fact, it was the belief I used to subscribe to myself), my mind changed after reading the manga all the way through. This part doesn't make so much sense to me if it's just a straight multiplier (from the Viz manga):

Piccolo: Don't underestimate it Vegeta. Cell is far stronger than the Androids -- and you were powerless against them.
Vegeta: Don't you preach at me! Do you want me to start with you!? I will top myself...mark my words... I will transcend the Super Saiyan!
...
Piccolo: Is he serious? Can that even be done? Transcending the Super Saiyan state...!?

If SSJ was just a straight and constant multiplier of power, why even bothering trying to push beyond it? Why would it even occur to them that it might be possible? Wouldn't it make more sense to just train their base forms until the multiplied power gain was enough?

Admittedly though, it does work either way. At least in the manga. If we take filler and GT into account, then the Professor's way might make more sense. Personally I prefer the idea that they have to push beyond their limits to reach new power, rather than transformations just being a shortcut to greater power like kaioken. But yeah, preferring it doesn't mean it's right.

I do think whatever way is right, though, that Rocketman's chart fits into it somehow.

There is nothing in the story that ever actually indicates that the Saiyans knew what Super Saiyan actually was, all they knew was that when they transformed they got stronger. Therefore, Vegeta may have just figured that he could find another transformation. At that point, in Dragonball, all he was going off was that the Super Saiyan was supposed to be the strongest in the entire universe. When the Artificial Humans easily beat Vegeta, he just figured it must have been something beyond his current state because to him that was not supposed to happen.

[JulieYBM]

It could be their base form could not become powerful enough as quickly as they needed.

[Bussani]

Could be @ both of the above posts.

[Onikage725]

Yeah, that was my thinking. I just assume the villains were so badass that the x50 multiplier wasn't cutting it. If, for the sake of argument, SSJ2 is a roughly x100 multiplier, then that is an instant x2 to maximum power just by triggering a subtle transformation. Instant gain > slow training. Especially if one has "peaked" at the moment. In cases where they seem to not be gaining much by normal training, learning how to transform further is the only reliable means of powering up beyond their current limitations.

[Bussani]

Yeah, that was my thinking. I just assume the villains were so badass that the x50 multiplier wasn't cutting it. If, for the sake of argument, SSJ2 is a roughly x100 multiplier, then that is an instant x2 to maximum power just by triggering a subtle transformation. Instant gain > slow training. Especially if one has "peaked" at the moment. In cases where they seem to not be gaining much by normal training, learning how to transform further is the only reliable means of powering up beyond their current limitations.

That's a good point.

Edit: As you say, maybe they were reaching a peak of what power that could gain with Super Saiyajin alone. That would explain needing to push beyond it. To get any large bonuses to their base form they might have to attain SSJ2, get comfortable with it and train with it at that point.

[Bussani]

Sorry for double posting, but I have a question for the Professor and Onikage.

If the Super Saiyajin forms are multipliers, how do you think Gohan's Kaioshin upgrade works? Does it just allow him to multiply his strength up to a huge degree without actually transforming? If so, what decided whatever number of multiplication it represents? (x200? I dunno).

Edit: In the manga they explain that the power up draws out all of Gohan's latent power, the power that was hidden within him. Goku was impressed at how much Gohan was hiding in there. Goku also says, "It's amazing, you're this strong but you've barely changed on the outside. You're not even a Super Saiyan," to which the older Kaioshin comments, "Transforming isn't everything. That Super-whatever is just show-biz."

This is why a lot of people believe that the Super Saiyajin forms just allow you to tap into a deeper hidden power you have. I guess that might mean that SSJ1 lets you tap into x50 extra of your fullest hidden potential, SSJ2 might tap into x100 extra (just for example), etc, and the Kaioshin power up releases all of your power regardless? I guess that might make sense.

Edit 2: Keep in mind that the Kaioshin power up replaces his Super Saiyajin forms, implying that since all the energy is out already then they're no longer necessary. So another question is whether Mystic Gohan can train to get any stronger than he already is. Is it possible to further increase your ki when all of it that was hidden is released? When you train, what are you increasing; your overall ki (including what's hidden) or your ability to tap into that hidden ki? Maybe both?

[Onikage725]

I think you hit the nail on the head. If transformation is just a mechanism to allow the body to handle and process more ki (explaining why Saiyans seem to have a minimum power requirement, Freeza's true form had to bulk up to process SSJ-level full power, and Cell had to evolve to reach new plateaus), then I guess Kaioshins power up just removed all physical and mental limitations to power access. With unrestricted access to his full potential, he didn't need to strain his body to use it.

[Bussani]

I think you hit the nail on the head. If transformation is just a mechanism to allow the body to handle and process more ki (explaining why Saiyans seem to have a minimum power requirement, Freeza's true form had to bulk up to process SSJ-level full power, and Cell had to evolve to reach new plateaus), then I guess Kaioshins power up just removed all physical and mental limitations to power access. With unrestricted access to his full potential, he didn't need to strain his body to use it.

So what I'm wondering is whether Gohan could still improve upon his power at that point, or if your full hidden power is more set at birth. It might make sense that it can change, but maybe not dramatically. There are 2 possibilities I've thought of.

1. Your maximum hidden power doesn't change. If this is the case, theoretically if someone like Goku could train to be so powerful (which I'm not sure is possible, everyone hits a peak eventually) that merely transforming to SSJ would be enough to access their remaining hidden power, any further forms would become redundant or not work at all, similar to Gohan losing his transformations.

2. If your hidden power can grow beyond what it already is, and Gohan (for some reason) trained his ass off to increase it, would he instantly have access to all of it? Because when the old Kaioshin was drawing out his hidden power he commented that it was taking longer because there was so much, so if Gohan added more, would it instantly be available or would some of it end up hidden again? If he ended up with more hidden ki, could he then go Super Saiyajin to access it? Honestly, I'm really not sure if that's possible since it's already like he's gone Super Saiyajin at that point, only not...so he'd probably have access to the new power right away, I guess. Either that or need the old Kaioshin to draw out the extra hidden power as well.

Anyway, another reason I wasn't sure about transformations just being multipliers is that often you can't explain a character's strength using maths like that. When a character becomes a Super Saiyajin, they aren't necessarily at full strength right away, so saying that they're strictly 50x stronger seemed a bit limited to me. As Piccolo said to Gero, all of them are able to increase the amount of ki in their body in an instant, something Gero hadn't understood.

But if transforming isn't exactly just a power multiplier and is more like a hidden power unlocker, giving you access to 50x more, then I guess it's like saying that the maximum a Super Saiyajin can power up to (without using things like USSJ) is 50x the maximum they could power up to in base form. For instance, if your maximum base form power was 10 and you were only at 5, when you transformed to SSJ you might go up to 250 with room to power up to 500. That's quite a significant jump in powering up room.

Another thing I wonder is how much stronger SSJ2 is than SSJ1. Do the Perfect Files state what the number is supposed to be? I seem to remember people saying x100 base, but that seems unlikely to me since it's only double the power of a Super Saiyajin. I mean, base->SSJ1 is a 50 times increase. Just doubling that doesn't seem as dramatic at all, more like adding a normal kaioken to SSJ (I don't know if that's possible outside of filler anyway, but yeah). If SSJ2 was 50 times stronger than SSJ1, on the other hand, it would be 2500x the base form. Now that's an increase...

I guess now my theory of how it all works isn't that different to what I originally said. You train, you reach a peak, you transform, allowing you to surpass that peak and train to higher levels. The only real difference is, if it's a multiplier, the lower forms do benefit from training the higher forms, which does make some sense. So maybe Buu SSJ1 Goku is stronger than Cell SSJ1 Goku. But that said, I don't think the increase would be that significant. Maybe enough to have a better chance against Cell as he was at the start of the Cell games, but not enough for Goku's SSJ1 to surpass the power of Cell games Gohan SSJ2's power.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Sorry for double posting, but I have a question for the Professor and Onikage.

If the Super Saiyajin forms are multipliers, how do you think Gohan's Kaioshin upgrade works? Does it just allow him to multiply his strength up to a huge degree without actually transforming? If so, what decided whatever number of multiplication it represents? (x200? I dunno).

Edit: In the manga they explain that the power up draws out all of Gohan's latent power, the power that was hidden within him. Goku was impressed at how much Gohan was hiding in there. Goku also says, "It's amazing, you're this strong but you've barely changed on the outside. You're not even a Super Saiyan," to which the older Kaioshin comments, "Transforming isn't everything. That Super-whatever is just show-biz."

This is why a lot of people believe that the Super Saiyajin forms just allow you to tap into a deeper hidden power you have. I guess that might mean that SSJ1 lets you tap into x50 extra of your fullest hidden potential, SSJ2 might tap into x100 extra (just for example), etc, and the Kaioshin power up releases all of your power regardless? I guess that might make sense.

Edit 2: Keep in mind that the Kaioshin power up replaces his Super Saiyajin forms, implying that since all the energy is out already then they're no longer necessary. So another question is whether Mystic Gohan can train to get any stronger than he already is. Is it possible to further increase your ki when all of it that was hidden is released? When you train, what are you increasing; your overall ki (including what's hidden) or your ability to tap into that hidden ki? Maybe both?

I always viewed the Super Saiyan transformation as a more efficient form of the Kaiô-Ken or at least similar to it but it has far better results and the side effects that are not as harsh. So concerning Son Gohan and his Ultimate power-up, I believe that all that the Old Kaiôshin did was draw out his power to its ultimate and final limit. He tells Kakarrot something to the effect that he not only will draw out his (son Gohan’s) latent power but also beyond even that and we see this clearly in the fight with Gotenks-Buu. When Buu beats the dog crap out of Son Gohan ( ) Dende rushes over to heal Son Gohan after that Buu laughs and asks what was the purpose in being healed since there was not any change in Son Gohan’s combat power.

This means the he could not receive the near death power-up any longer. Some might argue that the so-called “Zenkai” stopped in the Namek/Freeza Sagas but Herms said that the Daizenshuu never states that to be the case. They misquote or misunderstand a portion that speaks of it being rare or small. Which makes since because they were not being as badly damaged or a power-up that was impressive in that time period would not even register on the radar in light of the power levels they were at during the Buu Saga.

...Anyway, another reason I wasn't sure about transformations just being multipliers is that often you can't explain a character's strength using maths like that. When a character becomes a Super Saiyajin, they aren't necessarily at full strength right away, so saying that they're strictly 50x stronger seemed a bit limited to me. As Piccolo said to Gero, all of them are able to increase the amount of ki in their body in an instant, something Gero hadn't understood.

That was the whole point, Toriyama was trying to get away from numerical power levels and let the reader judge the character’s strength by their performance and abilities.

Another thing I wonder is how much stronger SSJ2 is than SSJ1. Do the Perfect Files state what the number is supposed to be? I seem to remember people saying x100 base, but that seems unlikely to me since it's only double the power of a Super Saiyajin. I mean, base->SSJ1 is a 50 times increase. Just doubling that doesn't seem as dramatic at all, more like adding a normal kaioken to SSJ (I don't know if that's possible outside of filler anyway, but yeah). If SSJ2 was 50 times stronger than SSJ1, on the other hand, it would be 2500x the base form. Now that's an increase...

Herms states that the Daizenshuu in Japanese just describes what Super Saiyan 2 and 3 allows the character to do instead of what type of multiplier. Yet the French version of (I believe) Daizenshuu #7 states that Super Saiyan 2 is Super Saiyan twice the regular Super Saiyan multiplier (x100) and SSJ 3 is three times the multiplier (150). Even though we should take the Japanese over the French, the French version makes the math easier even though it is false in comparison to the Japanese version of the Daizenshuu. Yet, the French edition goes along with the theme of getting away from numerical power-levels because of the immensity of them beyond the Freeza Saga.

[Onikage725]

Herms states that the Daizenshuu in Japanese just describes what Super Saiyan 2 and 3 allows the character to do instead of what type of multiplier. Yet the French version of (I believe) Daizenshuu #7 states that Super Saiyan 2 is Super Saiyan twice the regular Super Saiyan multiplier (x100) and SSJ 3 is three times the multiplier (150). Even though we should take the Japanese over the French, the French version makes the math easier even though it is false in comparison to the Japanese version of the Daizenshuu. Yet, the French edition goes along with the theme of getting away from numerical power-levels because of the immensity of them beyond the Freeza Saga.

Hm, I like that about the French Daizenshuu. It goes with what I used to think anyway. Back when going off of the mistranslation of x5, I used to factor SSJ2 at x10 and SSJ3 at x15. I also used to figure SSJ4 at x20. And I personally held Golden Ozaru at x15, adding the Ozaru and SSJ multipliers, which didn't conflict with anything to me since we only see Vegeta/Bebi Vegeta use it. I'd have needed to see Goku use it to truly test that theory, but his time in that form was very brief.

Obviously for purposes of this discussion, I'd be adding another 0 onto those figures.

My old power level list was pretty thought out, but I think a number of my theories from then would probably need another look. My basic thought, though, has always been that power levels could still be guessed at in spite of what the series said. It's just a statistical figure, the same as you'd see in a RPG. Whether you're watching Yu Yu Hakusho and one character is said to have greater reiki/yoki than another, or you're watching Ninja Turtles and one character is said to be the inferior fighter to another, or you're watching DBZ and one character's power level is higher than anothers... it's all just semantics to me.

And like any show, someone's level of performance can fluctuate based on outside factors (anger, adrenaline, desperation, fear, injury, confidence, what have you).

I think statements like Vegeta's, about not being able to calculate powers, don't mean the concept of getting a numerical value of someone's average power output is flawed. It just means that with characters lowering their power and amplifying in bursts, Saiyans fluctuating with transformations or from recovery after injury, and Saiyans power increasing in moments of intense anger, assigning one static number to the flow of the overall battle is impractical.

[Bussani]

I always viewed the Super Saiyan transformation as a more efficient form of the Kaiô-Ken or at least similar to it but it has far better results and the side effects that are not as harsh.

I agree. But that's also why I wasn't sure about the strict, 50x increase, when kaioken is so flexible in comparrison. I guess you could say Super Saiyajin is flexible too though since you can use USSJ, reach level 2 and level 3, so yeah. SSJ is like kaioken except it's not just increasing the ki in the body, it's transforming the body to be able to handle that ki increase, so you don't end up destroying yourself. That's how I saw it.

So concerning Son Gohan and his Ultimate power-up, I believe that all that the Old Kaiôshin did was draw out his power to its ultimate and final limit. He tells Kakarrot something to the effect that he not only will draw out his (son Gohan’s) latent power but also beyond even that and we see this clearly in the fight with Gotenks-Buu. When Buu beats the dog crap out of Son Gohan ( ) Dende rushes over to heal Son Gohan after that Buu laughs and asks what was the purpose in being healed since there was not any change in Son Gohan’s combat power.

This means the he could not receive the near death power-up any longer. Some might argue that the so-called “Zenkai” stopped in the Namek/Freeza Sagas but Herms said that the Daizenshuu never states that to be the case. They misquote or misunderstand a portion that speaks of it being rare or small. Which makes since because they were not being as badly damaged or a power-up that was impressive in that time period would not even register on the radar in light of the power levels they were at during the Buu Saga.

Do you think this means it's impossible for Gohan to get any stronger at that point? Even if he could, he probably wouldn't be able to increase his strength much since the level of training to get any meaningful results at that level probably doesn't exist on Earth.

That was the whole point, Toriyama was trying to get away from numerical power levels and let the reader judge the character’s strength by their performance and abilities.

Another reason I didn't like the strict 50x increase. I believe characters in Dragon Ball can force themselves beyond such limits, it's just not necessarily safe to do so. But then, I suppose that's what USSJ is, so it does kind of work out.

Herms states that the Daizenshuu in Japanese just describes what Super Saiyan 2 and 3 allows the character to do instead of what type of multiplier. Yet the French version of (I believe) Daizenshuu #7 states that Super Saiyan 2 is Super Saiyan twice the regular Super Saiyan multiplier (x100) and SSJ 3 is three times the multiplier (150). Even though we should take the Japanese over the French, the French version makes the math easier even though it is false in comparison to the Japanese version of the Daizenshuu. Yet, the French edition goes along with the theme of getting away from numerical power-levels because of the immensity of them beyond the Freeza Saga.

I really don't trust those french numbers. If SSJ2 is only twice as powerful as SSJ, then you'd think Goku, Gohan, Trunks and Vegeta could have defeated Cell if they'd ganged up on him. Even though they never tried and they're not one body, I think SSJ2 was meant to be more impressive than that.

I think statements like Vegeta's, about not being able to calculate powers, don't mean the concept of getting a numerical value of someone's average power output is flawed. It just means that with characters lowering their power and amplifying in bursts, Saiyans fluctuating with transformations or from recovery after injury, and Saiyans power increasing in moments of intense anger, assigning one static number to the flow of the overall battle is impractical.

Agreed. It's possible to calculate their strength based on maths, but it's difficult because of all the variables. Ki is such a temperamental thing. Ki can raise almost without limits, but the character is still limited by what their body can handle.

[Saiyan-Professor]

I always viewed the Super Saiyan transformation as a more efficient form of the Kaiô-Ken or at least similar to it but it has far better results and the side effects that are not as harsh.

I agree. But that's also why I wasn't sure about the strict, 50x increase, when kaioken is so flexible in comparrison. I guess you could say Super Saiyajin is flexible too though since you can use USSJ, reach level 2 and level 3, so yeah. SSJ is like kaioken except it's not just increasing the ki in the body, it's transforming the body to be able to handle that ki increase, so you don't end up destroying yourself. That's how I saw it.

So concerning Son Gohan and his Ultimate power-up, I believe that all that the Old Kaiôshin did was draw out his power to its ultimate and final limit. He tells Kakarrot something to the effect that he not only will draw out his (son Gohan’s) latent power but also beyond even that and we see this clearly in the fight with Gotenks-Buu. When Buu beats the dog crap out of Son Gohan ( ) Dende rushes over to heal Son Gohan after that Buu laughs and asks what was the purpose in being healed since there was not any change in Son Gohan’s combat power.

This means the he could not receive the near death power-up any longer. Some might argue that the so-called “Zenkai” stopped in the Namek/Freeza Sagas but Herms said that the Daizenshuu never states that to be the case. They misquote or misunderstand a portion that speaks of it being rare or small. Which makes since because they were not being as badly damaged or a power-up that was impressive in that time period would not even register on the radar in light of the power levels they were at during the Buu Saga.

Do you think this means it's impossible for Gohan to get any stronger at that point? Even if he could, he probably wouldn't be able to increase his strength much since the level of training to get any meaningful results at that level probably doesn't exist on Earth.

That was the whole point, Toriyama was trying to get away from numerical power levels and let the reader judge the character’s strength by their performance and abilities.

Another reason I didn't like the strict 50x increase. I believe characters in Dragon Ball can force themselves beyond such limits, it's just not necessarily safe to do so. But then, I suppose that's what USSJ is, so it does kind of work out.

Herms states that the Daizenshuu in Japanese just describes what Super Saiyan 2 and 3 allows the character to do instead of what type of multiplier. Yet the French version of (I believe) Daizenshuu #7 states that Super Saiyan 2 is Super Saiyan twice the regular Super Saiyan multiplier (x100) and SSJ 3 is three times the multiplier (150). Even though we should take the Japanese over the French, the French version makes the math easier even though it is false in comparison to the Japanese version of the Daizenshuu. Yet, the French edition goes along with the theme of getting away from numerical power-levels because of the immensity of them beyond the Freeza Saga.

I really don't trust those french numbers. If SSJ2 is only twice as powerful as SSJ, then you'd think Goku, Gohan, Trunks and Vegeta could have defeated Cell if they'd ganged up on him. Even though they never tried and they're not one body, I think SSJ2 was meant to be more impressive than that.

I think statements like Vegeta's, about not being able to calculate powers, don't mean the concept of getting a numerical value of someone's average power output is flawed. It just means that with characters lowering their power and amplifying in bursts, Saiyans fluctuating with transformations or from recovery after injury, and Saiyans power increasing in moments of intense anger, assigning one static number to the flow of the overall battle is impractical.

Agreed. It's possible to calculate their strength based on maths, but it's difficult because of all the variables. Ki is such a temperamental thing. Ki can raise almost without limits, but the character is still limited by what their body can handle.

All we can go on is statements that are made throughout the series and what the background information the Daizenshuu provides. However, there are a lot of instances where the power levels are not that far apart and it appears that the characters are miles apart. Whereas there are other examples, where they are supposed to be a severe gap in power levels and the lesser one does a pretty good job. The why they did not gang up on Cell question never works because the same could be asked of other fights yet it appears as if the fighters did not stand a chance. If the story said that the character was not strong enough and needed to reach a new plateau in order to win go with that and enjoy Dragonball.

[Bussani]

All we can go on is statements that are made throughout the series and what the background information the Daizenshuu provides. However, there are a lot of instances where the power levels are not that far apart and it appears that the characters are miles apart. Whereas there are other examples, where they are supposed to be a severe gap in power levels and the lesser one does a pretty good job. The why they did not gang up on Cell question never works because the same could be asked of other fights yet it appears as if the fighters did not stand a chance. If the story said that the character was not strong enough and needed to reach a new plateau in order to win go with that and enjoy Dragonball.

True enough. I dunno though, I still think SSJ2 must have been at least more than double a standard SSJ.

If we take filler into account, wouldn't that time Goku used kaio-ken in addition to SSJ have made him as powerful as a SSJ2 if SSJ2 only doubled your SSJ strength? I guess it might have only doubled his base power, taking him up to x52 his base..? But that doesn't make much sense if you ask me.

[Saiyan-Professor]

All we can go on is statements that are made throughout the series and what the background information the Daizenshuu provides. However, there are a lot of instances where the power levels are not that far apart and it appears that the characters are miles apart. Whereas there are other examples, where they are supposed to be a severe gap in power levels and the lesser one does a pretty good job. The why they did not gang up on Cell question never works because the same could be asked of other fights yet it appears as if the fighters did not stand a chance. If the story said that the character was not strong enough and needed to reach a new plateau in order to win go with that and enjoy Dragonball.

True enough. I dunno though, I still think SSJ2 must have been at least more than double a standard SSJ.

If we take filler into account, wouldn't that time Goku used kaio-ken in addition to SSJ have made him as powerful as a SSJ2 if SSJ2 only doubled your SSJ strength? I guess it might have only doubled his base power, taking him up to x52 his base..? But that doesn't make much sense if you ask me.

Perhaps it did but notice that Kakarrot maintained it for only a split-second by Dragonball standards. That technique would most likely tear him apart if held longer.

Personally, I like the French edition of Daizenshuu #7's mathematics because it makes a lot of sense in light of Dragonball GT. We see the characters fight a good amount of the time in base form and only appeal to the Super Saiyan forms when extra strength was needed (See the episodes when they fight the disciples of Lood or when Vegeta fought Hell Fighter #17). It is the base form combat strength that really matters and once they reached a certain level the transformations was just icing on the cake.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Well, the way I see it, is that Goku's Super Saiyan form had to increase exponentially if he were confident he could crush Dabra. Goku stated Dabra to be "about the same" with Cell, and at the very least, he was comparing Dabra to the Cell he fought. Now, Cell stated that Goku's chances would increase "slightly" if he were to take a senzu and come back to Full-Power, which means Cell had a whole lot of chi in reserve.

So, we see a powered-up Cell superior to Goku, and later, Goku is confident an enemy like this is trash. Goku even stated Gohan still had a chance to win the battle, and he looked like trash. So, with this scenario, there's three things that are very likely from the manga:

1) Goku did power-up his Super Saiyan form through training, which is why he assumed all of them could handle someone like Dabra in battle.

2) You're of the belief Gohan is a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, and believe Goku's utter confidence was towards their ability (Gohan's) of transforming into one and handling Dabra in the form.

3) Goku compared Dabra to the Cell he teleported down to earth to talk to about joining the Cell Games.

The #3 choice doesn't seem very likely, though. Why would Goku bother comparing Dabra to a Cell he had "no clue" of? Especially when he had yet (Cell) to actually show his real power?

Mostly everyone agrees Gohan was only a Super Saiyan, so the likely choice would be #1 and not the others. Just my take.

[Bussani]

Well, the way I see it, is that Goku's Super Saiyan form had to increase exponentially if he were confident he could crush Dabra. Goku stated Dabra to be "about the same" with Cell, and at the very least, he was comparing Dabra to the Cell he fought. Now, Cell stated that Goku's chances would increase "slightly" if he were to take a senzu and come back to Full-Power, which means Cell had a whole lot of chi in reserve.

So, we see a powered-up Cell superior to Goku, and later, Goku is confident an enemy like this is trash. Goku even stated Gohan still had a chance to win the battle, and he looked like trash. So, with this scenario, there's three things that are very likely from the manga:

1) Goku did power-up his Super Saiyan form through training, which is why he assumed all of them could handle someone like Dabra in battle.

2) You're of the belief Gohan is a Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura, and believe Goku's utter confidence was towards their ability (Gohan's) of transforming into one and handling Dabra in the form.

3) Goku compared Dabra to the Cell he teleported down to earth to talk to about joining the Cell Games.

The #3 choice doesn't seem very likely, though. Why would Goku bother comparing Dabra to a Cell he had "no clue" of? Especially when he had yet (Cell) to actually show his real power?

Mostly everyone agrees Gohan was only a Super Saiyan, so the likely choice would be #1 and not the others. Just my take.

Good points, but Gohan at SSJ alone shouldn't have been able to handle someone at Cell's level. Vegeta commented that he was weaken than he was at the Cell games, so Goku must have been taking SSJ2 into account if he thought Gohan still had a chance to win.

[Horgus]

Good points, but Gohan at SSJ alone shouldn't have been able to handle someone at Cell's level. Vegeta commented that he was weaken than he was at the Cell games, so Goku must have been taking SSJ2 into account if he thought Gohan still had a chance to win.

I personally agree with this (although judging with the discussions from some on here, not everyone does), but I think that Cell's full strength before his "near death powerup" was far greater than Goku or what any of the other Z fighters could have handled, and that subsequently, a weakened Adult Gohan would have had to go SSJ2 to handle someone of his caliber, IE: Dabra.