Akira Toriyama Quitting Dragonball

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:31 am

Rocketman wrote:If it had been 17 there, Krillin woulda whacked the button with no problem.

Yep, almost certainly. No one said it wasn't irresponsible. Just somewhat less irresponsible than purposely letting Cell get her.

Mr. Announcer · Post by **Mr. Announcer** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:36 am

Err...yeah, that's definitely true, but it's not like he spared her life because he expected something out of it. That kiss just allowed him to see her as more than an evil android and once he started to see her as a person and as a woman he couldn't do the deed. He wasn't trying to get laid or anything... though I'm sure it helped.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:38 am

Mr. Announcer wrote:Err...yeah, that's definitely true, but it's not like he spared her life because he expected something out of it. That kiss just allowed him to see her as more than an evil android and once he started to see her as a person and as a woman he couldn't do the deed. He wasn't trying to get laid or anything... though I'm sure it helped.

You're optimistic about human intentions. I like that!

Also I agree. I doubt Kuririn ever really expected her to like him, even though he wanted her to. He doesn't have that much self esteem.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:30 pm

Kuririn saw a piece of ass and just like with most men (including myself at times), he thought with what was between his legs than his brain. In the world of martial arts, wanting to test one’s strength against a strong opponent is nobler than “T&A”. When someone approaches a situation primarily with a Western European worldview other forms of standards look foolish in comparison.

Mr. Announcer · Post by **Mr. Announcer** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:39 pm

Yeah, because my standards are so very western...
I don't think it's part of any cultures set of standards to value a test of strength over the lives of others, over one's own life perhaps but definitely not others. Especially in Vegeta's case since his motive isn't a noble desire for self improvement but rather having power over other people.

Not that I don't think this makes him an interesting character considering nobody else in the series acts this way, I just find it hard to believe you consider him noble. It's not like he has a strong moral code or anything, he just doesn't take shit from anyone and sees himself as entitled to everything which is more commonly referred to as just being selfish.

As for Kuririn, it's a little ridiculous to assume he was motivated by lust. Any guy as afraid of death as him would forget his sex drive in an instant in favor of living. Honestly though, I would've been a lot more horrified if he had killed her, using your idea of a warriors nobility. Most of the others would have seen it as a total cop out, save for a more rational thinker like Piccolo.

Bejiita · Post by **Bejiita** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:31 pm

Bussani wrote:
Bejiita wrote:(just an excuse for Toriyama to bring in the fusions and a way to make the Buu sage a bit longer and better).
Just an excuse? I'd say it was a pretty valid one. He could have destroyed Buu, but then the kids wouldn't have learned anything. Goku could only be around for 1 more day, he wasn't planning on coming back. It's not too different to how Roshi wanted to beat Goku and Kuririn so they would continue their training, Goku hoped that the kids would take up the mantel. Besides, if things had stayed as they were (just Fat Buu), they probably would have managed just fine.

Goku's running out of energy was a miscalculation on his part, because SSJ3 wastes more energy than it can build up when you're alive.

Yea I know it was a valid excuse, that's why I said it made the Buu saga longer and better.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:46 pm

Bejiita wrote:
Bussani wrote:
Bejiita wrote:(just an excuse for Toriyama to bring in the fusions and a way to make the Buu sage a bit longer and better).
Just an excuse? I'd say it was a pretty valid one. He could have destroyed Buu, but then the kids wouldn't have learned anything. Goku could only be around for 1 more day, he wasn't planning on coming back. It's not too different to how Roshi wanted to beat Goku and Kuririn so they would continue their training, Goku hoped that the kids would take up the mantel. Besides, if things had stayed as they were (just Fat Buu), they probably would have managed just fine.

Goku's running out of energy was a miscalculation on his part, because SSJ3 wastes more energy than it can build up when you're alive.
Yea I know it was a valid excuse, that's why I said it made the Buu saga longer and better.

Ah, forgive me if my comment came off as harsh or anything then.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:03 pm

Mr. Announcer wrote:Yeah, because my standards are so very western...
I don't think it's part of any cultures set of standards to value a test of strength over the lives of others, over one's own life perhaps but definitely not others. Especially in Vegeta's case since his motive isn't a noble desire for self improvement but rather having power over other people.

Not that I don't think this makes him an interesting character considering nobody else in the series acts this way, I just find it hard to believe you consider him noble. It's not like he has a strong moral code or anything, he just doesn't take shit from anyone and sees himself as entitled to everything which is more commonly referred to as just being selfish.

As for Kuririn, it's a little ridiculous to assume he was motivated by lust. Any guy as afraid of death as him would forget his sex drive in an instant in favor of living. Honestly though, I would've been a lot more horrified if he had killed her, using your idea of a warriors nobility. Most of the others would have seen it as a total cop out, save for a more rational thinker like Piccolo.

Culture has everything to do with it; the problem is that not every one has the same standards where ethics is concerned. I did not say I agreed with that position personally but to those that live a warrior’s lifestyle and a Saiyan one (from the perspective of Dragonball) it was honorable and Kuririn whined all the time about getting a girlfriend so his intentions are suspect. All through history, men have done dumbass things in the name of power and women and to this very day, we see the same things just look at the news and check out a history book. What occurred in Dragonball was nothing new. Also you might want to check out this ongoing thread concerning Kuririn’s wish found here.

SaiyaMel · Post by **SaiyaMel** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:50 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
ultimatedbzfan wrote:
Rocketman wrote: Fixed that for ya, buddy.
Rocketman. Why all the hate against Gohan?
We hate on them because Son Gohan, Kakarrot and Son Goten suck Ôzaru size ass.

I disagree,, Kakkarott has his setbacks and I've grown to like Vegeta, F. Trunks and Piccolo more, but I don't think he's that bad of a character. I don't mind Goten so much either... My opinion on the other hand isn't so highly of Gohan for some reason - probably for the reasons others (Rocketman, you, etc.) have mentioned... though, I don't really hate him.

I do find it rather juvenile however, how many Vegeta fanboys/girls resent Kakkarott so much for the reasons Vegeta himself resents him.

The 2008 Jump special shows that Toriyama isn't 100% through with DB - as many have thought before.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:17 pm

SaiyaMel wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:
ultimatedbzfan wrote: Rocketman. Why all the hate against Gohan?
We hate on them because Son Gohan, Kakarrot and Son Goten suck Ôzaru size ass.
I disagree,, Kakkarott has his setbacks and I've grown to like Vegeta, F. Trunks and Piccolo more, but I don't think he's that bad of a character. I don't mind Goten so much either... My opinion on the other hand isn't so highly of Gohan for some reason - probably for the reasons others (Rocketman, you, etc.) have mentioned... though, I don't really hate him.

I do find it rather juvenile however, how many Vegeta fanboys/girls resent Kakkarott so much for the reasons Vegeta himself resents him.

The 2008 Jump special shows that Toriyama isn't 100% through with DB - as many have thought before.

I was just about to mention that. That's kind of how Saiyan Porefessor is acting like, in a way.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:41 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:...I was just about to mention that. That's kind of how Saiyan Porefessor is acting like, in a way.

Perhaps but Vegeta was a far more interesting character to me and he dealt with issues that everyone has faced in some form or another in their life I can relate to those characters far better than the happy go-lucky individuals that feel that life is one big amusement park. I guess that is why I prefer Naruto over One Piece, life is hard and you have to fight to hold on to whatever you have and when you lose it or someone takes it away you tend to get angry and want to strike out at others.

Deep Thought · Post by **Deep Thought** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:18 am

Kurrin is a retard. Still doesn't change the fact that Vegeta is an unlikeable douchbag and terrible character.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:23 am

Deep Thought wrote:Kurrin is a retard. Still doesn't change the fact that Vegeta is an unlikeable douchbag and terrible character.

Oh, well whatever works for you.

Deep Thought · Post by **Deep Thought** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:10 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:Kurrin is a retard. Still doesn't change the fact that Vegeta is an unlikeable douchbag and terrible character.
Oh, well whatever works for you.

To be honest, I also agree with you that Goku and Gohan are annoying characters.

Come to think about it, the only two Dragon Ball characters I kind of like is Piccolo and Freeza.

Satan-Sama · Post by **Satan-Sama** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:10 am

I wouldn't consider a bad character because of his faults, I would consider him to be a very very unlikeable person to meet.

But you gotta love it in the world of Dragon Ball where a man who has killed at least 100x the number of people Adolf Hitler has ever killed as can be consider an Anti-hero as opposed to a villain.

jda95 · Post by **jda95** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:12 am

Satan-Sama wrote:I wouldn't consider a bad character because of his faults, I would consider him to be a very very unlikeable person to meet.

But you gotta love it in the world of Dragon Ball where a man who has killed at least 100x the number of people Adolf Hitler has ever killed as can be consider an Anti-hero as opposed to a villain.

But they are MEAN people.

B · Post by B » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:38 am

jda95 wrote:
Satan-Sama wrote:I wouldn't consider a bad character because of his faults, I would consider him to be a very very unlikeable person to meet.

But you gotta love it in the world of Dragon Ball where a man who has killed at least 100x the number of people Adolf Hitler has ever killed as can be consider an Anti-hero as opposed to a villain.
But they are MEAN people.

Apparently you've never met a J-

No. That's not cool.

But yeah, Vegeta's flip-flopping on his opinions of Goku is probably attributed to Toriyama wanting to end the story, but it continued, and so Vegeta needed a purpose for the next arc, he couldn't just live with being better than Goku; his appeal to his fans is that rivalry.

I'd say GT handled his character after a "ur bettr karot lawl" moment than Toriyama did. He didn't "restart" like the Cell and Buu arcs, he accepted Goku was stronger, and just wanted to protect his family and the Earth, and thought Goku wasn't suited for it due to his nature, which he proclaims to Super 17.

Satan-Sama · Post by **Satan-Sama** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:15 am

Deep Thought wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:Kurrin is a retard. Still doesn't change the fact that Vegeta is an unlikeable douchbag and terrible character.
Oh, well whatever works for you.
To be honest, I also agree with you that Goku and Gohan are annoying characters.

Come to think about it, the only two Dragon Ball characters I kind of like is Piccolo and Freeza.

Then I'm not so sure this is the show for you.

Mr. Announcer · Post by **Mr. Announcer** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:30 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:...I was just about to mention that. That's kind of how Saiyan Porefessor is acting like, in a way.
Perhaps but Vegeta was a far more interesting character to me and he dealt with issues that everyone has faced in some form or another in their life I can relate to those characters far better than the happy go-lucky individuals that feel that life is one big amusement park. I guess that is why I prefer Naruto over One Piece, life is hard and you have to fight to hold on to whatever you have and when you lose it or someone takes it away you tend to get angry and want to strike out at others.

Actually, the same exact things happen in One Piece. Plenty of the characters end up effing up and lashing out at their friends over something they've lost or are afraid of losing (Nami, Usopp, Robin...). The only difference is they DO eventually get over it with the help of their comrades. I'd say the people who can confront their problems and move on with their lives are probably more mature in the end.

But yeah, it's totally subjective I guess. A lot of people can relate to Naruto as being lonely and striving for acceptance, but I personally can't identify with that so I'd rather watch a show where people have some fun once in a while. To each their own.

Oh right! about Toriyama wanting to end Dragonball! Cell saga would definitely have been a nice place considering how much had been resolved afterward. However since it had to continue we got some weirdness like Vegeta fighting again and trying to surpass Gokuh, and of course Gokuh coming back...destroying a lot of the dramatic impact his death had created. All in all though, I'm glad things kept going. Toriyama really let loose in the Buu saga and I found it a lot more enjoyable than the Cell saga... nobody hurt me.

Captain-Sora · Post by **Captain-Sora** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:42 am

Mr. Announcer wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:
jjgp1112 wrote:...I was just about to mention that. That's kind of how Saiyan Porefessor is acting like, in a way.
Perhaps but Vegeta was a far more interesting character to me and he dealt with issues that everyone has faced in some form or another in their life I can relate to those characters far better than the happy go-lucky individuals that feel that life is one big amusement park. I guess that is why I prefer Naruto over One Piece, life is hard and you have to fight to hold on to whatever you have and when you lose it or someone takes it away you tend to get angry and want to strike out at others.
Actually, the same exact things happen in One Piece. Plenty of the characters end up effing up and lashing out at their friends over something they've lost or are afraid of losing (Nami, Usopp, Robin...). The only difference is they DO eventually get over it with the help of their comrades. I'd say the people who can confront their problems and move on with their lives are probably more mature in the end.

But yeah, it's totally subjective I guess. A lot of people can relate to Naruto as being lonely and striving for acceptance, but I personally can't identify with that so I'd rather watch a show where people have some fun once in a while. To each their own.

Oh right! about Toriyama wanting to end Dragonball! Cell saga would definitely have been a nice place considering how much had been resolved afterward. However since it had to continue we got some weirdness like Vegeta fighting again and trying to surpass Gokuh, and of course Gokuh coming back...destroying a lot of the dramatic impact his death had created. All in all though, I'm glad things kept going. Toriyama really let loose in the Buu saga and I found it a lot more enjoyable than the Cell saga... nobody hurt me.

I also found Boo Saga enjoyable. Similar to a friend of mind, we both like that part of the DB story because it has more of a "classic" DB vibe to it. It was a mix of the serious situations where the Galaxy was in danger yet prior to those horrible events, it was following the flow and style from the old days of DB when Goku was a kid, even Fat Boo seemed like a old DB style villain(also Super Boo in a way considering he kind of had more wacky moments than dark and serious ones despite being the version of Boo who ended up destroying most of Earth's population).

Although I was happy about how the atmosphere sort of changed, that's not to say I didn't like the previous sagas' presentations, it's just nice to see it go back to its old roots. Maybe that's why I enjoyed the new special as well, it really played out like a classic DB episode too.