SSJ Goku(Buu saga)?

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:39 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Anyway, Goku said that Trunks wasn't swinging his sword seriously at him...

On the first swing, which Goku didn't even try to block. After that there's no evidence that Trunks was holding back.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:44 pm

No, he said after their little battle that Trunks wasn't coming at him with everything he had (after Trunks said that he was amazed that he could block the sword that cut Freeza in half with his finger).

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 8:57 pm

Ah, you're right. I always thought he was just being modest. But then, this is Goku we're talking about...he's never really modest.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:22 pm

Rocketman wrote:Answer: There is no flat multiplier. The strength of Super Saiyan varies from person to person and moment to moment. Goku made his regular Super form give him much more power than Vegeta's buffed-out Super form.

How is this the case, can you elaborate?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:18 pm

Rocketman wrote:Gohan dies to one android, Trunks says he can fight both at once, and Goku can block Trunks' attacks with a finger.

But Goku himself was stronger than he was on Namek. If he was stronger than Trunks, who owned Freeza completely, than he was a good deal more powerful than when he first went back and forth with Freeza. And we know that in Trunks' own history, Goku himself took out Freeza and King Cold together with little trouble.

Answer: There is no flat multiplier. The strength of Super Saiyan varies from person to person and moment to moment. Goku made his regular Super form give him much more power than Vegeta's buffed-out Super form.

This is largely just semantics though. Goku had more power. The "how" and "why" is speculation. Me, I just attribute it to Goku being that much more powerful than Vegeta.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:21 pm

Onikage725 wrote:But Goku himself was stronger than he was on Namek. If he was stronger than Trunks, who owned Freeza completely, than he was a good deal more powerful than when he first went back and forth with Freeza.

If Goku had used a sword, he would've dispatched of Freeza on Namek as easily as Trunks did.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:27 pm

Goku was far beyond Freeza after going Super Saiyajin, wasn't he? I always thought he probably could have ended the fight right away if he'd wanted to. Despite everything, he still didn't want to just kill the guy. It was enough to completely beat him and show him that someone stronger had come along.

Yes, it's dumb to worry about that kind of thing when the planet you're on is about to explode. But this is Goku we're talking about.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:28 pm

Sorry, another double post. But I feel like I have to get this down while it's in my head. Let me try to explain the way I'm seeing it.

When Goku and Gohan exit the room of spirit and time, they're not only more efficient in SSJ. Their power is far beyond what it was before. Even Vegeta, who had gained a huge amount of power by attaining USSJ, was shocked when he felt Goku bring out his ki for Korin. And he didn't even know that Goku was only showing half his power at that point, so Goku must have been at least more than twice as strong as him.

The way I see it, their are two possibilities.

1) Their training to attain FPSSJ could be considered similar to gravity or weight training. By forcing their bodies to get used to the strain, they gained a huge boost in base strength.

2) By reducing the strain on their bodies, wasting less energy and increasing the amount of ki they could bring out as Super Saiyajin, they've made their Super Saiyajin state far more efficient. While the training did probably increase their base strength, it's insignificant to the extra ki they've made available to themselves. I know it's not technically a seperate transformation, but however you look at it, this way the multiplier must have increased just by freeing up all that wasted ki they weren't using.

Personally I think either could work, but I want to lean towards 2 because I don't believe in such strict multipliers when it comes to ki. If you free up ki that was previously wasted by the form, then you've found more power without increasing your base strength.

Edit: In fact, I'd probably say it's a mix of both. Strengthening your body to lessen the strain would have resulted in a power up to the base strength, but freeing up that wasted ki and making it usable would increase the basic multiplier as well. Both combined would probably account for how far they surpassed Vegeta, who was wasting a lot of energy with USSJ.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:08 am

Bussani wrote:...1) Their training to attain FPSSJ could be considered similar to gravity or weight training. By forcing their bodies to get used to the strain, they gained a huge boost in base strength.

I believe this would align with the facts that we have on hand.

2) By reducing the strain on their bodies, wasting less energy and increasing the amount of ki they could bring out as Super Saiyajin, they've made their Super Saiyajin state far more efficient. While the training did probably increase their base strength, it's insignificant to the extra ki they've made available to themselves. I know it's not technically a seperate transformation, but however you look at it, this way the multiplier must have increased just by freeing up all that wasted ki they weren't using.

The multiplier did not have to change the extra Ki most likely went towards their base strength plus the multiplier and there you go.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:12 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:The multiplier did not have to change the extra Ki most likely went towards their base strength plus the multiplier and there you go.

Their base strength got high enough that Vegeta's USSJ form was less than half of 50x Goku's base?

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:20 am

Rocketman wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:The multiplier did not have to change the extra Ki most likely went towards their base strength plus the multiplier and there you go.
Their base strength got high enough that Vegeta's USSJ form was less than half of 50x Goku's base?

Hey, Toriyama wrote the thing, it does not have to make sense, and it is this segment of the story that I find many people complain about, I protest all the time how the power-levels became ridiculously in favor of Kakarrot and Son Gohan during this time. I just go by the manga/anime and let the Daizenshuu fill in the blanks. Herms notes from the Daizenshuu and Mike’s Transformation Guide tells us that there was not anything special about Full-Power Super Saiyan but that the two mentioned above conserved a lot of Ki or energy so I am leaving it at that personally. I am not attempting to make more of it than it is because that just causes headaches.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:29 am

Saiyan-Professor wrote:The multiplier did not have to change the extra Ki most likely went towards their base strength plus the multiplier and there you go.

I don't think ki that was previously being used up by their Super Saiyajin form would somehow move to their base form.

It may just be that the extra ki just lets them fight for longer without getting tired, rather than adding to their strength. In this case the strength their base forms gained from reducing the strain SSJ puts on the body must have been huge.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:16 am

The way I see it is like this:

"SSJU" - The SSJU forms force more power out of the form than it is capable of efficiently managing. IE, Vegeta and Trunks still have the standard 50x multiplier for SSJ but are able to make the SSJ form generate more power than 50x of their base. And since I don't consider SSJU to be an actual transformation, just a boosting of power, I don't think there's any multiplier to it, so one SSJU can be of vastly different power than another. And Trunks "SSJU2" is the same thing as Vegeta's SSJU, just powered up further.

"FPSSJ" - "Full Power Super Saiya-jin" or "Mastered Super Saiya-jin" is, to me, just standard SSJ with more available power. The extra power comes from the ease of maintaining the form. SSJ apparently requires energy to maintain and keep going, by getting used to the form far less energy is needed to support the form and it can be used for combat instead. Also, less power is needed to access the form (assuming they're not already transformed like Goku and Gohan were) so there's extra energy as well. So it's not so much that SSJ has gotten better as it is that they can actually use the full power of the Super Saiya-jin state now, something they couldn't do previously.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:29 am

Xyex wrote:The way I see it is like this:

"SSJU" - The SSJU forms force more power out of the form than it is capable of efficiently managing. IE, Vegeta and Trunks still have the standard 50x multiplier for SSJ but are able to make the SSJ form generate more power than 50x of their base. And since I don't consider SSJU to be an actual transformation, just a boosting of power, I don't think there's any multiplier to it, so one SSJU can be of vastly different power than another. And Trunks "SSJU2" is the same thing as Vegeta's SSJU, just powered up further.

"FPSSJ" - "Full Power Super Saiya-jin" or "Mastered Super Saiya-jin" is, to me, just standard SSJ with more available power. The extra power comes from the ease of maintaining the form. SSJ apparently requires energy to maintain and keep going, by getting used to the form far less energy is needed to support the form and it can be used for combat instead. Also, less power is needed to access the form (assuming they're not already transformed like Goku and Gohan were) so there's extra energy as well. So it's not so much that SSJ has gotten better as it is that they can actually use the full power of the Super Saiya-jin state now, something they couldn't do previously.

I agree with this sort of logic. And technically speaking, that means both would be going beyond any hard multiplier, which makes more sense to me. Hard numbers and ki don't mix.