Majin Buu and Naruto, too

Post by **Herms** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:03 pm

It’s amazing that this never occurred to me before, and I’m sure that I’m not the first to realize it, but doesn’t Naruto’s origin seem awfully close to Uub’s? I know that the fellow who writes and draws Naruto was a big fan of Toriyama’s, and there are a lot of other similarities between the two mangas. However, I remember reading an interview with the creator of Naruto that was published in the American Shonen Jump a long while back, and in it he said something to the effect that he didn’t much care for any of the later Dragon Ball stories. It would seem odd for him to pay homage to a part of Dragon Ball that he didn’t even like. Of course, even if he didn’t like any of the Z-Era stories, it’s possible that he still liked the very, very end. Kind of like how some people hate just about all of GT except the very last episode.

On the other hand, is it possible that Naruto really isn’t paying homage to Dragon Ball at all? Could it be that they’re both just drawing on some pre-existing motif? Is there some ancient Oriental legend about a young boy who is the reincarnation of a terrible demon? If anyone has ever heard a story like that, I’d really appreciate it if they’d fill me in.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:18 pm

The difference between the two is that Uub is a reincarnation, whereas Naruto is simply a living prison, which unfortunately for him is as much a curse as well as a blessing.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:23 pm

That’s true, that’s true. And while Uub seems like a 100% good guy, Naruto turns real evil whenever the demon inside him is awakened. It's more like he’s two different people.

The S · Post by **The S** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:16 pm

Actually, his origins are reminiscent of a mass of kitsune stories (see Kurama from YYH for further details).

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:46 am

It might be loosely based on it, Kishimoto has said in interviews that DB/Z was one of his major influences with Naruto (Which might explain the most recent year long fight-fight-fight manga arc).

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 1:10 am

Whoa!

I guess interesting thins happen when it gets that far.

Izlude · Post by **Izlude** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:05 am

Herms wrote:That’s true, that’s true. And while Uub seems like a 100% good guy, Naruto turns real evil whenever the demon inside him is awakened. It's more like he’s two different people.

Naruto doesnt turn evil, he just looks that way ^^

Ben Plante · Post by **Ben Plante** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 4:07 am

Since we're foregoing spoiler tagging here, this is Naruto and his "evilness" in a nutshell. ... I'm gonna put a spoiler warning anywayz.
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NARUTO SPOILERS
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1. Regular Naruto. You see him all the time.
2. Naruto extracting/mixing the Fox's chakra with his own, resulting in a little changing, like eyes and thicker whiskers. He's still in control of himself though. He did this against Orochimaru's snakes in the Forest of Death, he did it to summon Gamabunta for the first time, and he did it fighting Neji and Gaara.
Finally, 3. The Fox, how should I put it, MERGES with him. He grows claws, sharp teeth, his face becomes very evil, and his visible chakra resembles the fox. This has only happened twice I recall, first when He thought Haku killed Sasuke, and then again recently towards the end of the most recent manga arc. He has little if any control of himself in this state.

I think that's how it is.

Back on topic, no, I doubt this was inspired by Buu. Way too different.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 7:37 am

As S pointed out, the concept of a fox demon in a person is nothing new to Japan. It's a part of their mythology. Japanese folklore is riddled with legends about foxes in general. As I've said before, I love the Naruto series, but I wish people would stop thinking it's basic plot is fantastically original, because it's not. Not to say that DB doesn't have lots of stuff that's been done before too. It's concept is taken straight from "Journey to the West". So no I don't think Kishimoto got his idea for Naruto from Buu. He got his inspiration from the folktales and mythology that are a part of his culture and that he grew up with.

Post by **Herms** » Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:01 pm

Jerseymilk wrote:Not to say that DB doesn't have lots of stuff that's been done before too. It's concept is taken straight from "Journey to the West".

Not so much. It is no secret that the very first story arc, where Goku and Bulma search for the Dragon Balls, is directly based off of "Journey to the West". After that, however, none of the stories are at all similar. The only way in which the rest of Dragon Ball is in any way based off of "Journey to the West" would be the continuing presence of Goku, who is of course based off of the Monkey King character.

Of course, Dragon Ball has lots and lots of other influences, ranging from Oriental myth to old B-movies. Even a detail as small as Goku’s life being saved from TaoPaiPai’s Dodon-Pa by the Dragon Ball he was carrying is reminiscent of earlier folk tales.

Ash · Post by **Ash** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:29 am

The only way in which the rest of Dragon Ball is in any way based off of "Journey to the West" would be the continuing presence of Goku, who is of course based off of the Monkey King character.

Heyhey. A certain three-eyed rival for Gokuu is also from Journey to the West =)

Sun_Wukong · Post by **Sun_Wukong** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:45 pm

Along with the Desert Bandit, and the Pig.

Post by **SaiyaJedi** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:30 pm

Sun_Wukong wrote:Along with the Desert Bandit, and the Pig.

And a certain Ox Demon King, and a Judge of the Underworld... and I believe that Toriyama mentioned in one of his "Ask-Me-Anything" Corners that Kamesennin was Tripitaka's horse or something like that (though I have no idea how that comes into play).

SDHero · Post by **SDHero** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:15 pm

Well, in the legend, Tripitaka's horse is actually a Dragon which has been turned into a horse...wait, it has NOTHING to do with Kamesennin...the horse is NOT a pervert, or old, or anything like Kamesennin! He gives Goku the Kinto-Un, but Goku has the ability to walk on clouds in the legend...I honestly have no idea how Toriyama thought he had intigrated the horse into DB!

Post by **Herms** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:22 pm

Blither it, I forgot those people…It’s been way, way too long since I’ve read my (incredibly abridged) translation of “Journey to the West”, so I’m rather rusty.

Now, Oolong is based off of Pigsy, and Yamcha was based off of Sandy. Pigsy and Sandy (I swear that those are the actual names my translation uses) [Julian's note: Zhu Wuneng and Sha Wujing] or are the two other disciples who accompany Tripitaka on his way to India. They join Tripitaka and the Monkey King as the two progress, Wizard of Oz-style. Oolong and Yamcha appear in the story in the exact same order as their “Journey” counterparts do, though not in very similar circumstances.

I don’t think I have to spell out how Oolong is based off of Pigsy. Sandy was a disgraced Dragon Prince who has the ability to transform into a horse, and in this form takes the place of Tripitaka’s original horse, which he ate. It was Yamcha, and not Kame Sen’nin, that you’re thinking of, SaiyaJedi. However, I can’t really see too much of a resemblance between Sandy and Yamcha, other than that they both live in the desert (well, Sandy lives in a lake in the desert, but whatever).

Gyu-Mao was based off of the Ox Demon, and the whole Mt. Fry-Pan incident in general was based off of the flaming mountain bit of “Journey to the West”. The Basho-Sen (sp?) was also taken from “Journey”.

But who was Tenshinhan based off of? And did Enma ever appear in “Journey to the West”? I always thought his inclusion in Dragon Ball was simply because he was such a well known staple of the Japanese (and Chinese and Indian) afterlife. My translation leaves tons and tons of stuff out, so I only know the briefest outline of the story. If anyone can think of some more references, please supply them.

Still, I stand by my assertion that pretty much all of the references to “Journey to the West” are in the very first Dragon Ball quest story arc.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:27 pm

SDHero wrote: He gives Goku the Kinto-Un, but Goku has the ability to walk on clouds in the legend...I honestly have no idea how Toriyama thought he had intigrated the horse into DB!

Like I said, it was Yamcha who Toriyama said was based off of Sandy. I think it was in Volume 2 or 3…Anyway, I think Yamcha counts as the horse because he gives Goku and co. a car capsule, after he blow up their car. This would be similar to how the dragon serves as Tripitaka’s horse after he eats it.

SDHero · Post by **SDHero** » Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:36 pm

Yes, the main references to JttW are in the first DB story arc, and they're rare after that. Having read a full translation of the story, let me assure you that "Sandy," or Sun Wu-neng, or Sha Monk (they give these guys multiple names) is NOT Tripitaka's horse. He's often left to guard the horse (like every damn fight), but he isn't the horse. They could prolly be combined in a short version without much loss, tho.

The big difference between Gyu-Mao and the, uh, original Gyu-Mao, is that in the legend he's incredibly powerful, and really quite evil. He also has a son (Red Boy) who had earlier been defeated by Son Goku, and then converted to Buddhism (or, the Path of the Right, as they say A LOT), and Gyu-Mao isn't really pleased by that.

I'm not particularly aware of any 3-eyed characters in JttW, but I could have forgotten, it's a LOOOONG book.

Enma sure does appear in JttW, though as only one of 10 Kings of the underworld. He seems to be most prominently figured, though I can't speak as to whether that's because he was considered more important, or just more popular, and therefore the author would've written about him more to please the audience.

Hope that clears up some confusion.

Ash · Post by **Ash** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:02 am

I'm not particularly aware of any 3-eyed characters in JttW, but I could have forgotten, it's a LOOOONG book.

Yi Er Lang, who captured Wukong, is often depicted with three eyes. Don't remember if it's really mentioned with that many words in the book, but it's like that with paintings etc

And Er Lang has a faithful dog. [The "Sky Barking Hound"] Now, that could be Chaozu

Sandy," or Sun Wu-neng, or Sha Monk

Zhu Wuneng is the Pig.Sha Wujing is Friar Sand.

Note that Wuneng is also a perverted pig

He's often left to guard the horse (like every damn fight), but he isn't the horse. They could prolly be combined in a short version without much loss, tho.

Heheh, the horse is usually useless indeed. But, he transforms back one time, when Sanzang is transformed into a bear =D [and he was handy when Wukong made a... medicine. Hm. NEVER take a medicine made by a monkey... >.>]

Dai · Post by **Dai** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:08 pm

SDHero wrote: Having read a full translation of the story, let me assure you that "Sandy," or Sun Wu-neng, or Sha Monk (they give these guys multiple names) is NOT Tripitaka's horse. He's often left to guard the horse (like every damn fight), but he isn't the horse. They could prolly be combined in a short version without much loss, tho.

Herms wasn't talking about Sha Monk, and definitely didn't insinuate he was Tripitaka's horse. He was, in fact, talking about the horse, who before becoming Tripitaka's horse was a disgraced and banished Dragon prince, which attacked the company first they meet, and also eats Tripitaka's original horse. I can see a resemblance to Yamcha there, though it's vague. I find it to make more sense than Yamcha being resembled to Sha Monk, though, so I like the theory.

SDHero · Post by **SDHero** » Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:20 pm

Either way works pretty well, then. Sha Monk is more the 'desert bandit', but the actions taken by Yamcha are similar to that of the Dragon Prince->Horse. But, hey, who said Toriyama was going for a particularly close/accurate rendition of the story? He was obviously just using it as a sort of spring board for the story, so I doubt he even spent as much time as we have in this thread worrying about this!

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Majin Buu and Naruto, too

Majin Buu and Naruto, too

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