The view of Dragonball in general anime culture

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:25 pm

So I'm at Katsucon at the moment (for the first time in the last eight frigging years without my Piccolo cosplay but that's an entirely different angry tangent) and I'm trying to judge how the general anime fan sees Dragonball in this day and age. It's a complicated thing- on one hand, people seem positive about it- at the amv showings it garners massive applause and most of the audience seems to remember the old days and what all the jokes mean. Shit- for the first time in my life I've actually seen more than one other Dragonball cosplayer- twelve at last count. But at the same time.... there's still next to nothing available in the dealer’s room and while Dragonball is actually being shown in the video rooms it's at 5 am and only being shown in English dub- at a con. I'd bet money that not a single other series is being shown in English in the entire building over the whole of the weekend- except Dragonball.

Basically, the mixed bag makes it really difficult to see what's going on with the show's general perception. Is this a positive resurgence of people who really remember the old show, or is it like Pokemon getting cheered up because people think it's fun to laugh at?

......... > >
......................<<

... As a side note, several things had come together to lead me to disappear so long. I can only do so many things on a computer at a time and when I started actually seriously roleplaying with more than one person again and became addicted to Diablo II again after gods know how many years of dry spell... let's just say it all built up -.- And then there's work and looking for a job and.... yeah. It’s been a long time. So if anyone could fill me in on the major happenings of the site for the last few months, any particularly interesting podcasts or old posts (particularly Nameccian related things....) to read to know what's happened .... I'd appreciate it.

And if anybody’s actually here at Katsu, I’m the slightly peeved ninja carrying around a Nameccian doll in a black cape. I tried to figure out if any of you were at the DBZ abridged showing but by the time I got a question in most of the people had left the room -_-

ImmortalSandwich · Post by **ImmortalSandwich** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:36 pm

People seem to go from one extreme to the other with Dragonball. I see those who love it, those who hate it, and those who have never heard of it before. Dragonball get's a bad name with people who don't understand anime, because of all the filler and lasers.

The most common argument I hear against it is "THEY JUST STAND AROUND AND TALK FOR A MILLION EPISODES AND THEN THEY SHOOT LASERS AND GOKUS HAIR IS DUMB DBZ ARE SUCK AND YOU ARE GAY FOR LIKING IT"

On the other hand, I still see grown adults walking around with DBZ t-shirts from time to time, and most of the people I hang out with either like it, or respect my opinion about it, though they aren't interested. DBZ probably got it's bad name in the American culture because of the heavy editing it went through and the lame dialogue in the Saiyan and Freeza sagas, which seems to be the only ones people have ever seen when they dislike the show.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:51 pm

Anime fans these days try to look "mature" and "hardcore" and only like anime where the main character is brooding and has a dark past and the story has a romance arc in it. Go to some websites and read reviews of DBZ and you'll see what I mean.

And I've never really understood the whole thing about them staring at each other for 10 minutes. The only saga that had long drawn out staredowns was the Frieza saga.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:53 pm

ImmortalSandwich wrote:DBZ probably got it's bad name in the American culture because of the heavy editing it went through and the lame dialogue in the Saiyan and Freeza sagas, which seems to be the only ones people have ever seen when they dislike the show.

> > I wonder who we have to blame for that..... (ok, I'm doe bitching now. really) But yeah. It's complicated.. and I wish there was a way to get a better view on it.

Super Ghost Kamikaze · Post by **Super Ghost Kamikaze** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:55 pm

I still don't know why there's a reason to care. Some people like it, some people don't, and I don't see a reason to care one way or the other.

I mean, does it change anything?

ImmortalSandwich · Post by **ImmortalSandwich** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:56 pm

jjgp1112 wrote:Anime fans these days try to look "mature" and "hardcore" and only like anime where the main character is brooding and has a dark past and the story has a romance arc in it. Go to some websites and read reviews of DBZ and you'll see what I mean.

And I've never really understood the whole thing about them staring at each other for 10 minutes. The only saga that had long drawn out staredowns was the Freeza saga.

I meant to get to that point, but I didn't. Thank you =D

Also, I find that people who don't like anime have absolutely NO patience for it, so even if you tried to prove to them that there isn't as much talking as they think there is, they will ignore you completely.

For example, this one kid that used to ride my bus always criticized me for liking DBZ, and I eventually asked him how much he actually knew about the show and why he hated it so much. He gave me the answer I provided in my last post, and backed it up by saying "I saw my little brother watching it, and it was just talking, I left, and came back ten minutes later, AND THEY WERE STILL TALKING"

Okay so you see two different scenes of people talking for about a minute each, and assume that that's all that's been going on the entire episode? Come on. I admit, the Freeza saga's filler is horrible, what with five minutes spanning several episodes, but most of the talking during fights is storyline related, and if you had the patience to listen to what's going on, maybe you would enjoy it.

Ah, ranting again. Sorry. I'm done now =P

Innagadadavida · Post by **Innagadadavida** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:57 pm

People either love DBZ or hate it. Or they think its okay.

ImmortalSandwich wrote:For example, this one kid that used to ride my bus always criticized me for liking DBZ, and I eventually asked him how much he actually knew about the show and why he hated it so much. He gave me the answer I provided in my last post, and backed it up by saying "I saw my little brother watching it, and it was just talking, I left, and came back ten minutes later, AND THEY WERE STILL TALKING"

If somebody criticized me personally for something that I like, I would have no problem just saying "okay" and leaving it at that. Try it, they'll shut up. They're only doing it for the reaction and to get validation for their own decisions (not watching DBZ).

Chuquita · Post by **Chuquita** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:00 pm

I don't care what other people think about my taste in manga. They're not the boss of me.

Besides, criticizing a series without having any actual knowledge of it, or bothering to do at least the minimum amount of research is pure ignorance.

Chrono Trigger · Post by **Chrono Trigger** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:08 pm

Most of the stuff I hear isn't very nice. It's always "It's a starter anime" or "It's for kids" then you have "It sucks" and there always the lovely "I hate Dragon Ball because all they do is yell and scream and its takes 4000 episodes for them to do an attack" so basically most people like to hate Dragon Ball because:

A)Kids love it.
B)It's popular and its cool to hate on popular things.
C)They feel like they've outgrown it.
D) They really don't know a god damn thing about it and hate it for the sake of hating it.

ImmortalSandwich · Post by **ImmortalSandwich** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:19 pm

Chrono Trigger wrote:Most of the stuff I hear isn't very nice. It's always "It's a starter anime" or "It's for kids" then you have "It sucks" and there always the lovely "I hate Dragon Ball because all they do is yell and scream and its takes 4000 episodes for them to do an attack" so basically most people like to hate Dragon Ball because:

A)Kids love it.
B)It's popular and its cool to hate on popular things.
C)They feel like they've outgrown it.
D) They really don't know a god damn thing about it and hate it for the sake of hating it.

B)It's popular and its cool to hate on popular things.

I believe this is the real answer, in most cases. All the cool kids in school hate it, because everyone else loves it, so in order to be cool like them, you need to hate it to, then pick on the nerds who don't care what your opinion is. Mindless drones, all of them.

Sept for the people who genuinely dislike the series, but those people are usually the more respectful ones, saying things like "I just don't like it" rather than "DBZ SUX UR GAY"

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:35 pm

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:I still don't know why there's a reason to care. Some people like it, some people don't, and I don't see a reason to care one way or the other.

I mean, does it change anything?

> > Well, I was curious for one. I also wanted to make a post to explain where I've been and try to get info on what's been going on.

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:01 pm

Hmm, I'd always gotten the impression that opinions regarding Dragon Ball have softened up since the 2002-2004 range, where Dragon Ball was constantly subjected to the stereotypical complaints (Fights are too long, lack of a plot, etc). Most of the people I've encountered nowadays actually give it quite a bit of respect. So, I'd say the anti-Dragon Ball sentiments are on the decline.

Speaking of the English dub, though, it sounds really popular in general. Damn near every fancy looking Dragon Ball site I've gone to abides by the English version, and it's nearly impossible to find downloads of the Japanese version. I don't get it. Why's the dub so popular? It's not even Dragon Ball. Stop polluting the Internet with this garbage about the fake Dragon Ball.

B · Post by B » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:06 pm

I believe in the end, Toei fucked it up with their greed. You can't make 30-episode jokes without, y'know, 30 episodes of shit not happening.

FUNimation didn't help, but they were working with, quite frankly, a sub-par representation of Dragon Ball to begin with. The more time I spend looking into DaizEX and Dragon Ball in general, the more the anime just makes me ":

".

And nobody I know bothers with Dragon Ball's manga, at least, not the people who criticize the series. They've only been expsoed to the anime. It's sad, really.

(Also, I meant DBZ. Toei did fine with the original, AFAIC.)

Dr. Casey wrote:I don't get it. Why's the dub so popular? It's not even Dragon Ball. Stop polluting the Internet with this garbage about the fake Dragon Ball.

Forgotten Hero · Post by **Forgotten Hero** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:32 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:I don't get it. Why's the dub so popular? It's not even Dragon Ball. Stop polluting the Internet with this garbage about the fake Dragon Ball.

What?

Anyway, I think criticism at cons or the internet have certainly calmed down in the Anime community. I think part of it is that it's become nostalgic, even though it's a classic in Japan. I remember being put down in middle school for loving DBZ, and now, as a junior in high school, people tell "Retro dude!" It's strange, it isn't even "retro" to any extant. Funimation is still releasing stuff for the series, and Viz is busy with their respective projects.
The Japanese dub still gets a bad rap among younger dub fans, but I think the real American otakus all love the Japanese cast. That is legendary.

Criticism and stereotypes of the show have definitely gotten a lot better.

Bejiita · Post by **Bejiita** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:34 pm

The main reasons that people diss the show (forgetting the dub) are that it's poorly animated, the fights last too long and that the later part of the series is what ruins the vibe of it.

The animation isn't going to be on par with what's being made nowadays though, it's from the 1980's, and even though many don't like the way it's animated, I ain't one to compain because the art style itself is eye catching, the animation could be better but look if you look at the sort of crap being created nowadays like Samurai Jack or Powerpuff girls, that style of animation is cheap, and not even worthy of being made into cartoons. It's like a stab at the Japanese, like to say, 'we can do it too' (i.e. characters that tend to move the mouths while everything else isn't, a common style in anime shows, but what the animators here don't realise is that their drawing are crap).

The long fights and stare scenes are not really evident in the manga, but we are talking of the anime here, so using that as part of the argument against the show would be fair when relating to the TV series, but it doesn't in anyway effect Toriyama'sstoryline, it stays intact, and the long scenes aren't as bad in Japanese with the original score in the background, seeing as I used to listen to some of the tracks anyway, I'm not bothered about certain scenes lasting longer with the nice BGM playing.

And yea, about the later part of the series being a downside to some, it's because they feel the quality started to go down, like mainly the Buu saga, I would think the majority of fans prefer the early DBZ, I do too, but disagree with those who think the show should've ended after the Freeza or Cell arcs.

Also, DB in Japan is kind of a thing of the past, fans from the era it originally aired in would be in their 30's or 40's now, and grown up. The merchandise is what keeps the vibe of the show still alive, and now with the refreshed version being aired in April, you could now officially say 'It's back'.

@forgotten hero, just wanted to say that you can't really call it the Japanese dub as it isn't a dub if it's in its original language.

B · Post by B » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:36 pm

The only reason I think criticism's goen down is because Dragon Ball hasn't been on TV for awhile. People haven't started liking the series more; they've just forgotten about it and now they've got Naruto, One Piece, and Bleach to take their pisses on.

Chrono Trigger · Post by **Chrono Trigger** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:40 pm

B wrote:The only reason I think criticism's goen down is because Dragon Ball hasn't been on TV for awhile. People haven't started liking the series more; they've just forgotten about it and now they've got Naruto, One Piece, and Bleach to take their pisses on.

That's true but as soon as you bring up Dragon Ball people flip out and start dissing it harder than ever.

Forgotten Hero · Post by **Forgotten Hero** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:40 pm

Bejiita wrote:The main reasons that people diss the show (forgetting the dub) are that it's poorly animated, the fights last too long and that the later part of the series is what ruins the vibe of it.

...No. People always complain about the staring matches in the show leading up to the actual fight. A good example of this would be Goku vs. Vegeta. They look at each other for minutes and when they actually throw some punches it only lasts like thirty seconds.
For the animation, I have never heard that criticism before, but what I can say is Anime from the 80's and early 90's have their good and bad animation days.

jjgp1112 · Post by **jjgp1112** » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:42 pm

Forgotten Hero wrote:
Bejiita wrote:The main reasons that people diss the show (forgetting the dub) are that it's poorly animated, the fights last too long and that the later part of the series is what ruins the vibe of it.
...No. People always complain about the staring matches in the show leading up to the actual fight. A good example of this would be Goku vs. Vegeta. They look at each other for minutes and when they actually throw some punches it only lasts like thirty seconds.
For the animation, I have never heard that criticism before, but what I can say is Anime from the 80's and early 90's have their good and bad animation days.

Actually, they looked at each other for about 30 seconds, Vegeta explained why Goku was a left-behind, and they fought each other for a while.

B · Post by B » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:43 pm

Because you've brought it up, CT. I don't talk about how much I hate Sailor Moon as much as I used too unless someone throws the name out there.

... Man, I hate Sailor Moon.