Dragon Ball Z Hater Websites

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:58 pm

hotrod28 wrote:
SSJ2bardock wrote:
hotrod28 wrote: I'd like to see a child fully understand vegeta's cunning battle tactics, or cell's biology, or anything about power levels.
How can you say that I child can't comprehend things like Cell's biology when the anime itself does nothing more than say that he has cells from other fighters? It's not like there's college level bio study stuff being explained on Cell, they just lay out some really basic stuff and move on.
Even on this one particular topic it is still debated among fans if cell received Nappa's cells, and which cell's from what fighter helped him survive in space, and why didn't he use a multitude of other attacks that were at his disposal.

Which are totally within the scope of a 10 year old's comprehension skills. The show really isn't that complicated.

hotrod28 · Post by **hotrod28** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:02 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:
hotrod28 wrote:
SSJ2bardock wrote: How can you say that I child can't comprehend things like Cell's biology when the anime itself does nothing more than say that he has cells from other fighters? It's not like there's college level bio study stuff being explained on Cell, they just lay out some really basic stuff and move on.
Even on this one particular topic it is still debated among fans if cell received Nappa's cells, and which cell's from what fighter helped him survive in space, and why didn't he use a multitude of other attacks that were at his disposal.
Which are totally within the scope of a 10 year old's comprehension skills. The show really isn't that complicated.

Well, fine. You have your opinion and I have mine.

Yi Xing Long · Post by **Yi Xing Long** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:23 pm

Wojak wrote:
Krakabeast wrote:I can definitely see where hotrod is coming from with the complexity of DB. I would not say that the concepts are complex themselves, but there are several complex areas within the whole franchise. It is basically the emotions of each individual character that the viewer/reader should be keeping tabs on. You sit there and think as if you were in that character's "shoes". You think about what that character is thinking, feeling, and how that character should react to other characters. Lets say your watching the anime for the first time. Do you really know who is going to be the "good" guy or the "bad" guy by the end of the show? Do you know who is going to be left alive by the end of the show? Carefully analyzing each character makes the viewer think more, making the plot more complex within itself. Complexity is also determined by who is watching it of course, depending on their level of intelligence, maturity, etc. I do not know how someone here can say that DB is not complex when your sitting here on a very active DB forum where people are still discussing what happened, what should of happened, where were these characters when this happened, etc. From my point of view, DB only is really portrayed as a children's franchise within the manga most of the time. The anime is a another story since it is an anime and should be geared towards a group of people that usually have more knowledge, or are more mature. I do not want to come out looking like an ageist person because I seemed to be very matronly when I was very young, and I did not appreciate adults making assumptions of the amount of knowledge I had because of my age. That is how I view DB. I know that a young boy does not need to have that same type of thought process to enjoy DB. It just depends on yourself and how you look at it.
To think in that way, even Winnie the Pooh or Aladdin are complex.

You people obviously do not understand demographics. Winnie the Pooh and other children shows are targeted toward very young children ages 3-7 I would say. Then you have typical Shounen anime that is target toward children ages 10-17. Different demographics. "Children show" is a very broad term. Of course shows made for 3-7 year olds are going to be one-dimensional in terms of meaning. Media targeted toward an older audience will of course have multiple levels of complexity. TV shows such as Flapjack and Chowder on Cartoon Network often have adult humor (sexual or not) that goes right over a younger person's head. They are typically labeled "children shows," but they can easily be enjoyed by anyone.

When you get right down to it, Dragon Ball was created for children (10-17), but can of course be enjoyed by anyone. I am guessing that hotrod28 is around 15 (or younger) since he still, even in the face of blatantly obvious evidence, refuses to acknowledge the facts of the matter. He doesn't want to see himself as a "child," so he makes ridiculous arguments.

Look, hotrod28, every single one of your arguments has been shot down already. Yes, the series does leave of lot open for discussion, and people can really get into it and make it much more complex than it is at face value. For example:

“Position multi-digital appendage (MDA) perpendicular to rotary device. Use MDA to apply counterclockwise torque until such time as the barrier section is released, followed by horizontal force while maintaining torque…”

The above is an explanation on how to open a door. A DOOR! You can make anything complex. the simple truth is that Toriyama just made it up as he went. The discussions that we have on this message board are usually about things that Toriyama probably never even thought about himself. He was creating a comic for young people to enjoy, not writing a dissertation on quantum physics.

hotrod28 · Post by **hotrod28** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:45 pm

I'm 17 xing long. And considering the fact that you're stating your opinion as fact, arguing with you is pointless. I already admitted it was a children's show in Japan, but when it was localized in the states, the higher-ups felt like it contained elements too mature for children, and that's where the culture divide is. I don't know what else to say, nor do I see a point in time where I was afraid of being labeled a child, or an argument of mine was referred to as ridiculous. But personal attacks are fun I guess.

Krakabeast · Post by **Krakabeast** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:47 pm

Yi Xing Long wrote: He was creating a comic for young people to enjoy, not writing a dissertation on quantum physics.

Quantum physics is not complex.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:11 pm

hotrod28 wrote:I'm 17 xing long. And considering the fact that you're stating your opinion as fact, arguing with you is pointless. I already admitted it was a children's show in Japan, but when it was localized in the states, the higher-ups felt like it contained elements too mature for children, and that's where the culture divide is.

Yes, someone in the US said "this children's show has some elements not considered appropriate in children's shows here, we need to edit them out."
How does that make Dragonball less a children's show?

Kingdom Heartless · Post by **Kingdom Heartless** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:31 pm

Is this still going?

It really gets to a point where you know that someone isn't going to listen to facts...

Dude, it is a kids show. Just like Naruto is, and Naruto has a lot more violence and such than Dragon Ball Z. Most of it is rated PG, over here, just like most kids movies and such.

Yi Xing Long · Post by **Yi Xing Long** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:34 pm

hotrod28 wrote:I'm 17 xing long. And considering the fact that you're stating your opinion as fact, arguing with you is pointless. I already admitted it was a children's show in Japan, but when it was localized in the states, the higher-ups felt like it contained elements too mature for children, and that's where the culture divide is. I don't know what else to say, nor do I see a point in time where I was afraid of being labeled a child, or an argument of mine was referred to as ridiculous. But personal attacks are fun I guess.

Except for the fact that it did air completely uncensored with a rating of PG on Cartoon Network in 2005/2006.

kusakun004 · Post by **kusakun004** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:41 pm

Yi Xing Long wrote:
hotrod28 wrote:I'm 17 xing long. And considering the fact that you're stating your opinion as fact, arguing with you is pointless. I already admitted it was a children's show in Japan, but when it was localized in the states, the higher-ups felt like it contained elements too mature for children, and that's where the culture divide is. I don't know what else to say, nor do I see a point in time where I was afraid of being labeled a child, or an argument of mine was referred to as ridiculous. But personal attacks are fun I guess.
Except for the fact that it did air completely uncensored with a rating of PG on Cartoon Network in 2005/2006.

Except for the fact Cartoon Network didn't rate every individual episode of the series like [adult swim] would or like with Naruto. There weren't even any sub-ratings for violence, language, or dialogue. I'm pretty sure at least one of those episodes might have gotten a (light) TV-14 considering some Bleach episodes with no offensive content get TV-14.

hotrod28 · Post by **hotrod28** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:44 pm

Adamant wrote:
hotrod28 wrote:I'm 17 xing long. And considering the fact that you're stating your opinion as fact, arguing with you is pointless. I already admitted it was a children's show in Japan, but when it was localized in the states, the higher-ups felt like it contained elements too mature for children, and that's where the culture divide is.
Yes, someone in the US said "this children's show has some elements not considered appropriate in children's shows here, we need to edit them out."
How does that make Dragonball less a children's show?

Well, it wasn't just somebody that said this, or any one person's decision. Remember when Viz released those unedited versions of the manga as their first release of the manga? Parents were outraged at the content in the manga, and the company was forced to add a warning "for ages 13 and up". For teens. Yet these same versions of the manga were perfectly acceptable for children in Japan.

That's what I'm getting at. In it's unedited format, dragonball had to be toned down in both the manga and anime in the states, because it was not seen suitable for children. Dragonball could have just as easily been marketed to teens in the states, but there was more money in making it a children's show, and at the time anime was almost viewed as a cartoon here.

Yi Xing Long · Post by **Yi Xing Long** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:45 pm

kusakun004 wrote:
Yi Xing Long wrote:
hotrod28 wrote:I'm 17 xing long. And considering the fact that you're stating your opinion as fact, arguing with you is pointless. I already admitted it was a children's show in Japan, but when it was localized in the states, the higher-ups felt like it contained elements too mature for children, and that's where the culture divide is. I don't know what else to say, nor do I see a point in time where I was afraid of being labeled a child, or an argument of mine was referred to as ridiculous. But personal attacks are fun I guess.
Except for the fact that it did air completely uncensored with a rating of PG on Cartoon Network in 2005/2006.
Except for the fact Cartoon Network didn't rate every individual episode of the series like [adult swim] would or like with Naruto. There weren't even any sub-ratings for violence, language, or dialogue. I'm pretty sure at least one of those episodes might have gotten a (light) TV-14 considering some Bleach episodes with no offensive content get TV-14.

Actually, I noticed that some episodes did get "L" and "V" added onto the rating, but they were still PG.

kusakun004 · Post by **kusakun004** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:50 pm

Yi Xing Long wrote:
kusakun004 wrote:
Yi Xing Long wrote: Except for the fact that it did air completely uncensored with a rating of PG on Cartoon Network in 2005/2006.
Except for the fact Cartoon Network didn't rate every individual episode of the series like [adult swim] would or like with Naruto. There weren't even any sub-ratings for violence, language, or dialogue. I'm pretty sure at least one of those episodes might have gotten a (light) TV-14 considering some Bleach episodes with no offensive content get TV-14.
Actually, I noticed that some episodes did get "L" and "V" added onto the rating, but they were still PG.

Really? I remember the "V" when it was on Toonami uncut, but not an "L". I did see TV-14 one episode though. It surprised me. Although it might have been an accident. Honestly though, episode 5 is probably the most bloody episode of the 67 episodes and I would have thought that that one would get a TV-14 V for the blood since some shows on [adult swim] get that with no blood at all.

Yi Xing Long · Post by **Yi Xing Long** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:54 pm

hotrod28 wrote:
Adamant wrote:
hotrod28 wrote:I'm 17 xing long. And considering the fact that you're stating your opinion as fact, arguing with you is pointless. I already admitted it was a children's show in Japan, but when it was localized in the states, the higher-ups felt like it contained elements too mature for children, and that's where the culture divide is.
Yes, someone in the US said "this children's show has some elements not considered appropriate in children's shows here, we need to edit them out."
How does that make Dragonball less a children's show?
Well, it wasn't just somebody that said this, or any one person's decision. Remember when Viz released those unedited versions of the manga as their first release of the manga? Parents were outraged at the content in the manga, and the company was forced to add a warning "for ages 13 and up". For teens. Yet these same versions of the manga were perfectly acceptable for children in Japan.

That's what I'm getting at. In it's unedited format, dragonball had to be toned down in both the manga and anime in the states, because it was not seen suitable for children. Dragonball could have just as easily been marketed to teens in the states, but there was more money in making it a children's show, and at the time anime was almost viewed as a cartoon here.

No. One soccer mom in a Toys-R-Us store threw a shit-fit because she saw Goku's penis in one panel. Because of that one, single incident, Viz conformed to her demands. Later on they slapped the "13 and up" label onto the volumes so that they wouldn't run into any problems with batshit insane people like that one woman. Dragon Ball was never "toned down" for children, it was only edited because a few radical individuals went on tirades. The "Z" portion of the manga is, for the most part, unedited and uncensored with a rating of "A" for "all ages."

As for the anime, the edits and censors were because of Saban's strict regulations. When it began airing on Cartoon Network those went out the window since Saban was out of the picture.

As for "anime" being viewed as a "cartoon" --it IS a cartoon. "Anime" is short for "animation" (and is borrowed from the French term "anime").

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:59 pm

hotrod28 wrote:and at the time anime was almost viewed as a cartoon here.

Yeah, that's, uh, kind of what it is.

B · Post by B » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:41 pm

hotrod28 wrote:
Adamant wrote:
hotrod28 wrote:I'm 17 xing long. And considering the fact that you're stating your opinion as fact, arguing with you is pointless. I already admitted it was a children's show in Japan, but when it was localized in the states, the higher-ups felt like it contained elements too mature for children, and that's where the culture divide is.
Yes, someone in the US said "this children's show has some elements not considered appropriate in children's shows here, we need to edit them out."
How does that make Dragonball less a children's show?
Well, it wasn't just somebody that said this, or any one person's decision. Remember when Viz relea-

Gotta stop you there. Viz has virtually no idea what they're doing when it comes to manga, really. Check out Herms's topic on the many changes in dialogue for Dragon Ball, or check out Wikipedia's article on their treatment of One Piece. As an owner of multiple Viz releases of different series, I can say with full certainty their manga depaartment is well, to put in one word:

"HUUUUUUH?"

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:11 am

hotrod28 wrote:Even on this one particular topic it is still debated among fans if cell received Nappa's cells, and which cell's from what fighter helped him survive in space, and why didn't he use a multitude of other attacks that were at his disposal.

Yeah, maybe a child wouldn't over-analyze stuff like some of us do in these parts... But understanding the series? Come on, now.
There's nothing complex about "Cell's biology", Vegeta's "tactics" or power levels (oh, my! numbers! so complex! if anything, they're actually an over-simplification of the characters' abilities)...

Big Momma · Post by **Big Momma** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:07 pm

B wrote:
hotrod28 wrote:
Adamant wrote: Yes, someone in the US said "this children's show has some elements not considered appropriate in children's shows here, we need to edit them out."
How does that make Dragonball less a children's show?
Well, it wasn't just somebody that said this, or any one person's decision. Remember when Viz relea-
Gotta stop you there. Viz has virtually no idea what they're doing when it comes to manga, really. Check out Herms's topic on the many changes in dialogue for Dragon Ball, or check out Wikipedia's article on their treatment of One Piece. As an owner of multiple Viz releases of different series, I can say with full certainty their manga depaartment is well, to put in one word:

"HUUUUUUH?"

They're great with anime, however.(Well, as far as Naruto goes.)

I wonder what would happen if VIZ were to just do strictly anime, and FUNi were to take over the manga market...

B · Post by B » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:58 pm

Big Momma wrote:
B wrote:
hotrod28 wrote: Well, it wasn't just somebody that said this, or any one person's decision. Remember when Viz relea-
Gotta stop you there. Viz has virtually no idea what they're doing when it comes to manga, really. Check out Herms's topic on the many changes in dialogue for Dragon Ball, or check out Wikipedia's article on their treatment of One Piece. As an owner of multiple Viz releases of different series, I can say with full certainty their manga depaartment is well, to put in one word:

"HUUUUUUH?"
They're great with anime, however.

That makes it all the more frustrating. Their anime is presented pretty much uncut on TV, and fully uncut on the DVDs.

Why their manga department is full of guys who want to add "urban" shit in their manga and dumb down dialogue is beyond me.

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:13 pm

B wrote:That makes it all the more frustrating. Their anime is presented pretty much uncut on TV, and fully uncut on the DVDs.

Uhh, no. Zatch Bell? Blue Dragon? Anything BUT their precious Naruto and Bleach within the past three years*?
*I think Inuyasha ended in '06, correct?

Deep Thought · Post by **Deep Thought** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:14 pm

If you want to argue that Dragon Ball is for adults by saying that Vegeta's body mutilation/rape and head decapitation by angry Nameks or the massive blowjob/titty-fuck that Chi Chi gave Goku is "too adult for the kids!" then fine.

But saying that DBZ is too complex for kids? No.