Ultimate Power-Up and “beyond the normal limits”

[Saiyan-Professor]

In a recent, thread the subject of Son Gohan and his “SUPER ULTIMATE JESUS POWA UP” came up in discussion. What I would like to know is did the Old Kaiôshin not only released Son Gohan’s “hidden abilities” but added some power to him? According to the Viz translation, Old Kaiôshin said that he could draw a fighter’s power out “beyond the normal limits” (Vol. 24/96). Now if all his hidden powers were drawn out initially where does the Old Kaiôshin get the extra for the “beyond the normal limits” part?

[Bussani]

I asked Herms and even he wasn't sure, but this is what I think.

Transformations allow you to release more of your hidden potential. Even SSJ3 might not release all of Goku's potential. Rou Dai Kaioshin brings all that power to the surface in your base form, thereby taking you well beyond your normal limits.

[Puto]

Another possibility is that the "Ultimate Jesus Powerup" gives Gohan the equivalent of an infinite amount of training; i.e. the power he got after Old Kaioshin's mumbling around was the maximum he could have in the most ideal of conditions.

[Bussani]

Another possibility is that the "Ultimate Jesus Powerup" gives Gohan the equivalent of an infinite amount of training; i.e. the power he got after Old Kaioshin's mumbling around was the maximum he could have in the most ideal of conditions.

That's arguably the same thing as having all your hidden power drawn out. So I agree.

If that is the case though, is it possible to get so powerful in your base form that SSJ is no longer required? Or no longer an option, even? Or maybe it would be SSJ3 that would no longer be possible, since transforming to SSJ2 might bring out all of your power.

I'm not sure it works this way, but it's a thought.

[Puto]

In a theoretical case of eternal training, yes. Of course, since you can't finish an "infinite" training, it is a limit one normally would never reach, and therefore only obtainable with something like Old Kaioshin's mumbo jumbo.

[Bussani]

In a theoretical case of eternal training, yes. Of course, since you can't finish an "infinite" training, it is a limit one normally would never reach, and therefore only obtainable with something like Old Kaioshin's mumbo jumbo.

I agree. It was a very theoretical question.

Edit: I just want to expand on what I already said before.

I think things like the Super God Water and Saichoro's ki unlocking draw out your potential ki to the limit of what your body in it's current state/form can handle. Even after using the Super God Water Goku was able to get stronger by training his body and spirit further. For someone like Kuririn after getting Saichoro's upgrade, however, it would be difficult to go beyond that since he had already trained his body to the supposed human limit. I guess he must have pushed himself beyond that to a certain extent, but he really doesn't do enough after that point for us to tell.

Rou Dai Kaioshin's upgrade, on the other hand, draws all of your potential ki out regardless of your body's current limits. That's my theory, anyway.

[Saiyan-Professor]

When Old Kaiôshin drew, out Son Gohan’s power, it was according to his body’s current limits but once you hit a limit you have to pull from somewhere else to add to it. There are two other potential options. The first of them is borrowing from one’s life force (either Son Gohan’s or Old Kaiôshin’s own life force), the other is that Old Kaiôshin perhaps pulled from some other outside source for the power after magically calculating what Son Gohan’s ultimate potential was.

[Bussani]

When Old Kaiôshin drew, out Son Gohan’s power, it was according to his body’s current limits but once you hit a limit you have to pull from somewhere else to add to it. There are two other potential options. The first of them is borrowing from one’s life force (either Son Gohan’s or Old Kaiôshin’s own life force), the other is that Old Kaiôshin perhaps pulled from some other outside source for the power after magically calculating what Son Gohan’s ultimate potential was.

I don't know. If they have the potential power in them for SSJ3, then Rou Dai Kaioshin's upgrade just seems to be bringing that out to me. It's like transforming without the drawbacks. Goku doesn't need to draw power from anywhere else to transform, does he?

[SSJ2bardock]

I don't understand why he can't still use his Super Saiyan transformations after the "Super Jesus Power Up" (Which is a hilarious name by the way). The SSJ tranformations basically act as a multiplier of base power right, so why wouldn't he be able to use them?

[Bussani]

I don't understand why he can't still use his Super Saiyan transformations after the "Super Jesus Power Up" (Which is a hilarious name by the way). The SSJ tranformations basically act as a multiplier of base power right, so why wouldn't he be able to use them?

Because it replaces the transformations, which Rou Dai Kaioshin implies pretty strongly. He tells Gohan to 'do that Super thing you do', and when he does all his power comes out without the transformation happening. He also says that transformations are just 'show biz' and unnecessary.

Think of the upgrade as being an alternative to SSJ3 or beyond. Becoming a Super Saiyajin again would be a step backwards.

Edit: I don't think of Super Saiyajin as some magical amplifier that can just create new energy out of thin air. It's more like a further way to unleash the hidden power of a Saiyajin. At least, that's the impression I get from reading the manga.

[Yasai-R-Mighty]

Another possibility is that the "Ultimate Jesus Powerup" gives Gohan the equivalent of an infinite amount of training; i.e. the power he got after Old Kaioshin's mumbling around was the maximum he could have in the most ideal of conditions.

This explanation makes the most sense to me. Gohan can't train 24/7 (nor would he want to, lazy slacker!) plus he's mortal and has a set amount of time to train before he'd die of old age, preventing him from achieving what his body might be capable of if he had a limitless amount of training. In fact I don't think anyone has the privilege to accomplish this, except for the deceased hero's who get to keep their bodies. To me that's what Old Kaioshin's abilities dose for you, it lets you attain the power not possible of getting without eons of training, that's what I think he means by "beyond normal limits".

As for SSJ not being necessary, like it's been mentioned if SSJ just helps you draw out more of your potential rather then amplifying your base form's power indefinitely, if you've reached your full potential then all it would do for you is make you blond.....If you want to take GT into consideration though, I think that SSJ4 might be a bit different, so maybe even my getting the "Jesus power up" that form might still give you more power, then what your body's full potential is at base form, since it has some ties with the oozaru form, which is a known amplifier. Not that his matter's in this case since Gohan lost his tail....and I hate GT.

[SSJ2bardock]

I don't understand why he can't still use his Super Saiyan transformations after the "Super Jesus Power Up" (Which is a hilarious name by the way). The SSJ tranformations basically act as a multiplier of base power right, so why wouldn't he be able to use them?

Because it replaces the transformations, which Rou Dai Kaioshin implies pretty strongly. He tells Gohan to 'do that Super thing you do', and when he does all his power comes out without the transformation happening. He also says that transformations are just 'show biz' and unnecessary.

Think of the upgrade as being an alternative to SSJ3 or beyond. Becoming a Super Saiyajin again would be a step backwards.

Edit: I don't think of Super Saiyajin as some magical amplifier that can just create new energy out of thin air. It's more like a further way to unleash the hidden power of a Saiyajin. At least, that's the impression I get from reading the manga.

OK but to me the Super Saiyan transformations are a straight up multiplier, so I guess it just depends what you think the transformations do.

[Rocketman]

OK but to me the Super Saiyan transformations are a straight up multiplier

"We Saiyans can't be reduced to numbers." - Vegeta.

[SSJ2bardock]

"We Saiyans can't be reduced to numbers." - Vegeta.

"I think the transformations are straight multipliers" - SSJ2bardock

[Rocketman]

"We Saiyans can't be reduced to numbers." - Vegeta.

"I think the transformations are straight multipliers" - SSJ2bardock

"u r dum" - Rocketman's inner child.

...

"Damn, I need some tits to squeeze." - Rocketman

[Bussani]

I don't understand why he can't still use his Super Saiyan transformations after the "Super Jesus Power Up" (Which is a hilarious name by the way). The SSJ tranformations basically act as a multiplier of base power right, so why wouldn't he be able to use them?

Because it replaces the transformations, which Rou Dai Kaioshin implies pretty strongly. He tells Gohan to 'do that Super thing you do', and when he does all his power comes out without the transformation happening. He also says that transformations are just 'show biz' and unnecessary.

Think of the upgrade as being an alternative to SSJ3 or beyond. Becoming a Super Saiyajin again would be a step backwards.

Edit: I don't think of Super Saiyajin as some magical amplifier that can just create new energy out of thin air. It's more like a further way to unleash the hidden power of a Saiyajin. At least, that's the impression I get from reading the manga.

OK but to me the Super Saiyan transformations are a straight up multiplier, so I guess it just depends what you think the transformations do.

Whether they straight up multiply your current strength or not, that still doesn't mean the ki is coming from thin air. What Rou Dai Kaioshin says about this upgrade alone is evidence of that to me. Plus it's always been about tapping in to dormant power really. Gohan had all that power hidden away inside him and when it came out he was SSJ2.

So yes, the transformations are multipliers of some sort, but the potential ki is still there.

[Saiyan-Professor]

OK but to me the Super Saiyan transformations are a straight up multiplier

"We Saiyans can't be reduced to numbers." - Vegeta.

You are not reducing them to numbers because their base combat strength grows with training, the Super Saiyan transformation just multiplies that by 50 and so on.

...So yes, the transformations are multipliers of some sort, but the potential ki is still there.

That is true but Old Kaiôshin said that he went beyond the normal limits. The power had to come from somewhere.

...This explanation makes the most sense to me. Gohan can't train 24/7 (nor would he want to, lazy slacker!) plus he's mortal and has a set amount of time to train before he'd die of old age, preventing him from achieving what his body might be capable of if he had a limitless amount of training. In fact I don't think anyone has the privilege to accomplish this, except for the deceased hero's who get to keep their bodies. To me that's what Old Kaioshin's abilities dose for you, it lets you attain the power not possible of getting without eons of training, that's what I think he means by "beyond normal limits".

If that were the case then Son Gohan would have the combat strength of Super Saiyan 1000.

As for SSJ not being necessary, like it's been mentioned if SSJ just helps you draw out more of your potential rather then amplifying your base form's power indefinitely, if you've reached your full potential then all it would do for you is make you blond.....If you want to take GT into consideration though, I think that SSJ4 might be a bit different, so maybe even my getting the "Jesus power up" that form might still give you more power, then what your body's full potential is at base form, since it has some ties with the oozaru form, which is a known amplifier. Not that his matter's in this case since Gohan lost his tail....and I hate GT.

I shall ignore the GT comment…:lol:

[Bussani]

That is true but Old Kaiôshin said that he went beyond the normal limits. The power had to come from somewhere.

Gohan's limits were his base form's limit and the limits of what SSJ, SSJ2 and potentially (if he could ever reach it) SSJ3 could bring out, and even that would leave power still hidden (in my theory anyway). Rou Dai Kaioshin brought it all out, thus going beyond the limits of any Saiyajin at the time.

If we consider GT canon, I wonder if a full blooded Saiyajin would have even greater hidden potential because of SSJ4? Maybe if Rou Dai Kaioshin had picked Goku or Vegeta instead they would have gained SSJ4 strength in their base forms.

[Rocketman]

You are not reducing them to numbers because their base combat strength grows with training, the Super Saiyan transformation just multiplies that by 50 and so on.

So why do they ever train as Super Saiyans?

[JulieYBM]

You are not reducing them to numbers because their base combat strength grows with training, the Super Saiyan transformation just multiplies that by 50 and so on.

So why do they ever train as Super Saiyans?

Super Saiyans sell.