Dragon Ball Z Being Re-edited and Re-dubbed for HDTV

B · Post by B » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:10 pm

The original footage is all there; they're adding to the footage to fit HD.

Why would you have sentimentals feelings towards grain?

ImmortalSandwich · Post by **ImmortalSandwich** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:11 pm

Don't get ahead of yourself, we really don't know EXACTLY how much is going to be different until it comes out. I'm excited to see a new take on the anime in general. If it's supposed to be in HD and widescreen, that's awesome, because it'll look great on my HD TV, as opposed to the Orange Boxes, which don't look special at all.

I can't really formulate an opinion on it yet, and I don't know if I'll love it or hate it, but I'm excited to see what they do with it, and I have high hopes that it will be good. If not, oh well. I've still got the old DBZ.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:12 pm

It's a big deal because it's something to talk about and having something as harmless as DB to talk about is...well, harmless.

ImmortalSandwich · Post by **ImmortalSandwich** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:13 pm

Lol yeah, it's an updated DBZ. What fanboy ISN'T interested in talking about it?

Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi · Post by **Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:14 pm

Has anyone brought up the idea that Toei might be doing this because of the success FUNimation had with the Season sets? It sort of makes sense once you think about it. FUNimation took a risk by nuking their masters and cropping half the picture off and marketing it as new, and amazingly, got an overwhelmingly positive response (sales wise, at least). Now, Toei is putting out a release overwhelmingly similar to what FUNimation could've done if they weren't so stingy with money. This wouldn't be the first time that DBZ's popularity in America has caused a resurgence in Japan's fandom.

Chuquita · Post by **Chuquita** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:16 pm

Well, if I'm completely honest, what I REALLY want is a whole new series that takes place with the new animated special as its pilot episode. It doesn't have to be serious battles; I'm perfectly happy with leaning more towards comedy like the special itself did.

Also, while I didn't find Table overly interesting, I think that including him would provide an interesting dynamic.
(Not to mention I loved the whole "Goku has learned how to purposely irritate people and chosen Vegeta as is victim of choice" stuff.)

If there was a series like that coming out, I'd be glued to this forum for information.

Saiyan · Post by **Saiyan** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:17 pm

Ehh..I'm not really sure how much I like the idea behind DBKai.

On one hand, I think it's awesome that they are cutting out a lot of filler, bringing it even closer to the source material than it already is. Not to mention the remastering to HD, re-voicing and redoing the music, and even a new intro.

But on the other hand, if they're doing all of this stuff, why not just reanimate the entire series? It seems like Toei is making life harder for themselves if they redraw backgrounds and cut scenes to match what already exists. I think starting with a clean slate would be much more productive. The animation would be cleaner, shiny and new, and would be much, much more consistent (at least I would hope so). There wouldn't be a need to upgrade anything to HD, as the masters would already be digitally high-def already. I mean, they renamed it and are giving it a new intro anyway, why not start over? Just seems a bit nonsensical.

Plus, DBZ would still be there in its lovely Dragon Box quality for all you old school fans.

Nonetheless, I'm still excited about everything that's going on, and will definitely be keeping up with this when it starts coming out.

EDIT: Wow, a lot of people posted since I started my post. Well, makes my post more relevant now, hahahha .

B · Post by B » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:18 pm

I would imagine recreating a scene to take more time than adding a tad bit more to the edges, which is supposedly what they're doing.

ImmortalSandwich · Post by **ImmortalSandwich** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:20 pm

Re animating a 291 episode anime with the animation quality they used with the special would take a lot of time and money. It sorta seems like they're taking the easy alternative to that, but we'll just have to see when it comes out. Who knows, they might be making the better choice? Only time will tell..

Yi Xing Long · Post by **Yi Xing Long** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:21 pm

ImmortalSandwich wrote:Lol yeah, it's an updated DBZ. What fanboy ISN'T interested in talking about it?

It's not "updated" unless it is being re-animated. It really feels like this is being touted as a replacement, and a cheap one at that. What I am getting from these comments is, "Fuck that old show that I loved for over a decade. This is the better version!"

Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi · Post by **Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:21 pm

B wrote:I would imagine recreating a scene to take more time than adding a tad bit more to the edges, which is supposedly what they're doing.

It might end up being the other way around though. If they just edit parts of the image, they have to spend large amounts of time, making sure their style matches that of the original animation director.

Saiyan · Post by **Saiyan** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:26 pm

Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi wrote:
B wrote:I would imagine recreating a scene to take more time than adding a tad bit more to the edges, which is supposedly what they're doing.
It might end up being the other way around though. If they just edit parts of the image, they have to spend large amounts of time, making sure their style matches that of the original animation director.

Not to mention the fact that they are upscaling an image that was made for 480p. I'm not gonna act like I know what I'm talking about, but based on what I heard on the podcast (I think?), even the Dragon Box footage doesn't hold up as a full HD master, so that would mean a lot of reworking there, considering that they are manually taking out a lot of the dirt and grain.

Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi · Post by **Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:29 pm

Saiyan wrote:
Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi wrote:
B wrote:I would imagine recreating a scene to take more time than adding a tad bit more to the edges, which is supposedly what they're doing.
It might end up being the other way around though. If they just edit parts of the image, they have to spend large amounts of time, making sure their style matches that of the original animation director.
Not to mention the fact that they are upscaling an image that was made for 480p. I'm not gonna act like I know what I'm talking about, but based on what I heard on the podcast (I think?), even the Dragon Box footage doesn't hold up as a full HD master, so that would mean a lot of reworking there, considering that they are manually taking out a lot of the dirt and grain.

They might actually re telecine the footage from the original 16mm prints to a digital format again, like they did for the Dragonboxes. If they to that, we won't have to worry about any upscaling.

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:33 pm

Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi wrote:Has anyone brought up the idea that Toei might be doing this because of the success FUNimation had with the Season sets? It sort of makes sense once you think about it. FUNimation took a risk by nuking their masters and cropping half the picture off and marketing it as new, and amazingly, got an overwhelmingly positive response (sales wise, at least). Now, Toei is putting out a release overwhelmingly similar to what FUNimation could've done if they weren't so stingy with money. This wouldn't be the first time that DBZ's popularity in America has caused a resurgence in Japan's fandom.

The DBox singles have been making a killing for Toei. I doubt they even care about what Funi is doing...as long as the money arrives on time.

Saiyan · Post by **Saiyan** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:33 pm

Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi wrote: They might actually re transfer the footage from the cels to a digital format again, like they did for the Dragonboxes. If they to that, we won't have to worry about any upscaling.

Ah, I see. Turns out I didn't know what I was talking about after all

. Makes much more sense though.

snaku · Post by **snaku** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:37 pm

Yi Xing Long wrote:It's not "updated" unless it is being re-animated. It really feels like this is being touted as a replacement, and a cheap one at that. What I am getting from these comments is, "Fuck that old show that I loved for over a decade. This is the better version!"

I don't think anybody is saying that, or even implying it. Most are just excited about being able to watch something new on a WEEKLY basis after so many years of having to watch the same old stuff. DBK has new OP & ED, re-recorded voice overs and music, supposed new extended animation being added to the already cleaned up remastered video, and follows the manga much closer. Just because they're not re-animating every single frame, doesn't mean it's not new or worth getting excited over.

Now whether or not it turns out better than the original version remains to be seen, and will be a matter of taste. Some prefer the existing anime over the manga, and vice versa. And there will inevitably be fans that will prefer DBK over DBZ.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:44 pm

Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi wrote: They might actually re transfer the footage from the cels to a digital format again, like they did for the Dragonboxes. If they to that, we won't have to worry about any upscaling.

Err, they didn't transfer the footage from cels. The cels were photographed on 16mm film a long time ago and then most were sold on the collector's market. What they did do was telecine the original 16mm prints (which had been in cold storage) to a digital format and then clean and repair that transfer just about as well as could be done. The question has been, to this point, whether it was all done in HD or SD.

Why they would re-telecine the footage so soon is a mystery, but for some reason (giving the benefit of the doubt) I'm thinking the first go-around for the DragonBoxes was done in HD. At least, I hope.

-Corey

Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi · Post by **Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 7:55 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:
Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi wrote: They might actually re transfer the footage from the cels to a digital format again, like they did for the Dragonboxes. If they to that, we won't have to worry about any upscaling.
Err, they didn't transfer the footage from cels. The cels were photographed on 16mm film a long time ago and then most were sold on the collector's market. What they did do was telecine the original 16mm prints (which had been in cold storage) to a digital format and then clean and repair that transfer just about as well as could be done. The question has been, to this point, whether it was all done in HD or SD.

Why they would re-telecine the footage so soon is a mystery, but for some reason (giving the benefit of the doubt) I'm thinking the first go-around for the DragonBoxes was done in HD. At least, I hope.

-Corey

I've updated my original post to reflect your corrections.

By the way, I recall hearing that the Movies were the only things to be telecined in 1080, partly because they were printed on higher quality film, or something to that effect. I've been trying to confirm this for a while now, but the only thing I have to go on is my faint recollection of somebody on this forum pointing that out as reason for the DB/Z/GT boxes upscaling so badly compared to the Movie boxes. If anyone can confirm or correct me, I'd really appreciate it.

Yi Xing Long · Post by **Yi Xing Long** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:39 pm

Mayuri Furiza Kurotsuchi wrote:
B wrote:I would imagine recreating a scene to take more time than adding a tad bit more to the edges, which is supposedly what they're doing.
It might end up being the other way around though. If they just edit parts of the image, they have to spend large amounts of time, making sure their style matches that of the original animation director.

There is also a problem with frame jitter. That means the animators would have to check all 24 frames for every second of animation which comes out to nearly 29,000 frames per episode (not including OP and ED). They would have to make sure everything is lined up exactly, otherwise it would look like crap.

I am not sure what the cost was to originally produce Dragon Ball Z, but One Piece costs around $200,000 USD per episode. If you apply the same figure to "around 100 episodes" of Dragon Ball Z, it would come out to $20 million USD.

In order to remove the grain they would need to use a digital restoration service like Disney does for their old films. That would cost the same as or more than re-animating from scratch. If you take into account the cost of restoring Snow White in 1992 (around $1.5 million USD) and compare the 83-minute film to 100 episodes with 20 minutes of content (excluding OP and ED again), you would come to a figure of $36 million USD. Now, even if you take into account that Snow White was released in 1937 and needed a lot more restoration work than Dragon Ball Z will, even half of that figure ($18 million USD) would be nearly as much as the cost of re-animating from scratch, and that is still a generously low estimate.

Of course, some might say that Toei (Pony Canyon actually) has already restored the entire series for the Dragon Box release, but they still have massive amounts of grain, jitter still exists, and you can even find scratches and glue. This time they are going for an "HD remaster" which should obviously include getting rid of all grain, jitter, scratches, and glue. The grain and jitter are the biggest challenges.

I am not going to make any assumptions yet, but it seems like almost a wasted effort when Toei could simply re-animate the whole thing.

Saiyan · Post by **Saiyan** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:55 pm

Yi Xing Long wrote:Of course, some might say that Toei (Pony Canyon actually) has already restored the entire series for the Dragon Box release, but they still have massive amounts of grain, jitter still exists, and you can even find scratches and glue. This time they are going for an "HD remaster" which should obviously include getting rid of all grain, jitter, scratches, and glue. The grain and jitter are the biggest challenges.

This is what I'm talking about. Couldn't have said it any better. Reanimating the entire series would eliminate any of these little pains. It would be so, so, so ideal.

But I don't wanna sound like I'm beating a dead horse, so I'll probably stop complaining about it now, and show my optimism towards the series.