Dragon Ball Z Being Re-edited and Re-dubbed for HDTV

Discussion specifically regarding the "refreshed" TV version of DBZ created in Japan for its 20th anniversary, including individual threads for each episode.
User avatar
Yi Xing Long
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 329
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 6:10 pm

Post by Yi Xing Long » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:Besides, people are seemingly ignoring the whole "they're adding actual new animation to the frames" fact. We've seen 15 seconds of footage, can we wait another month for the first episode before damning Toei?

-Corey
Since when is this a fact? That was rumor started by Wasted Wisher. They are not adding any new footage to the sides. Maybe they are fixing some bad animation in certain scenes, but like I explained before, it would be ridiculously expensive and time consuming to add to the sides of the frames (almost 29,000 frames per episode of content), if not impossible to make it seamless. It doesn't make any sense for Toei to spend so much money on doing this when they can just crop it. Toei would be losing massive amounts of money if they decided to "add to the sides of the frames."

The tilt-and-scan selective re-framing is something Funimation should have done with their "remaster" before cropping. Toei does get +1 in this department (and for using better masters to begin with). I don't know why Funimation didn't use tilt-and-scan... it seems nonsensical not to.

User avatar
Super Ghost Kamikaze
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1809
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:10 pm

Post by Super Ghost Kamikaze » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:23 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote: Besides, people are seemingly ignoring the whole "they're adding actual new animation to the frames" fact. We've seen 15 seconds of footage, can we wait another month for the first episode before damning Toei?
Yes. We can also wait a month before praising them throwing musical numbers in the streets. But we're going to reach conclusions based on promotional material that the material wasn't meant to convey, because we want to know everything. And we're going to have opinions on the theories.

I don't see any harm in it, really. Is anyone PERSONALLY offended by what someone else thinks of the same product? If so, I dunno, maybe they shouldn't be posting on a forum where diverse opinions based on anything is allowed.

Shall we close this forum, re-opening it only when the show starts up?
Zenkai Power wrote:I like how I can make a huge post and nobody acknowledges any of my points but instead going on and on about whether or not we should be mad at TOEI b/c we wuz mad at Funi. :roll:

How about I pointed out why that doesn't matter up above.
The problem with your post was this:

The show was MADE to be framed in 4:3. When it was being animated, they knew it was going to be framed for 4:3 and so the important stuff was kept within the 4:3 aspect ratio. Cropping what was meant to be a 4:3 aspect ratio can cause problems, just as cropping a film meant for 16:9 can cause problems. Problems can be minimized by selective cropping, but in the end it's not the way the original animation was meant to be seen.

And so, I think it's a valid point that cropping is bad. Regardless of whether it's Toei, Funimation, or who released what first. It may be acceptable(I've accepted it on the Remastered sets because they're a very cheap option when I get them for $20 each), but it's still not the way it was originally made to be seen. The stuff on the sides isn't part of that "intended" image.

This is the same reason most people prefer the Double Features over the Funi singles. Or, at least, part of it. The Double Features are in 16:9. But the original prints were in 4:3, so the singles have more picture on the top and bottom. However, because they were ANIMATED specifically to be cropped to 16:9, some parts outside that ratio are animated badly and you can tell. They knew they were making it for 16:9, so when making the animation itself the image was meant to be framed that way. Same with 4:3 in the TV show.
Last edited by Super Ghost Kamikaze on Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Zenkai Power
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:07 am

Post by Zenkai Power » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:25 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Zenkai Power wrote:I like how I can make a huge post and nobody acknowledges any of my points but instead going on and on about whether or not we should be mad at TOEI b/c we wuz mad at Funi. :roll:

How about I pointed out why that doesn't matter up above.
It's great that you feel you made some fantastic points, and yes it sucks to sometimes be looked over... but coming back all high and mighty when you aren't acknowledged and validated doesn't help anything you've said, and in fact hurts every single last point.
lol. I'm not around here that often and I don't post that often so I felt I might have been ignored because I'm not such a regular user.

So I was trying to merely turn some attention back at a post I took a long time typing up. I know you feel like you're helping me by explaining the obvious to me, but trust me I already knew what you just said and I chose to do it anyway. I am not trying to be popular around here. If you guys are really going to get all that worked up over that last little post I made then feel free to think everything I've ever said is somehow invalidated. :roll:

User avatar
snaku
Regular
Posts: 610
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:02 am
Location: HFl L
Contact:

Post by snaku » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:29 pm

Vekurotto wrote:On the contrary, I'm not damning Toei right now but if the trailer is reflective of the final product I'll be very pissed and with good right.
What right do you have to be pissed at Toei over Kai? They've already given us the original version, properly restored, and readily available on DVD in the form of the Dragon Box's or the singles. Is that not all this fandom has ever asked for?

Toei doesn't do this kind of thing for just any show. Dragon Ball Z is special, and they're giving it this special treatment for the sake of old fans who'd like to experience the show they love in a new way, and for the young people who haven't been exposed to the show before. If you don't like the direction they're going with this, then buy the DBox singles.

Attn Haters: Toei did not murder your parents, run over your dog, poop in your soup, or steal your girlfriend. Please stop acting like they did.

User avatar
Zenkai Power
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:07 am

Post by Zenkai Power » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:31 pm

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote: The problem with your post was this:

The show was MADE to be framed in 4:3. When it was being animated, they knew it was going to be framed for 4:3 and so the important stuff was kept within the 4:3 aspect ratio. Cropping what was meant to be a 4:3 aspect ratio can cause problems, just as cropping a film meant for 16:9 can cause problems. Problems can be minimized by selective cropping, but in the end it's not the way the original animation was meant to be seen.

And so, I think it's a valid point that cropping is bad. Regardless of whether it's Toei, Funimation, or who released what first. It may be acceptable(I've accepted it on the Remastered sets because they're a very cheap option when I get them for $20 each), but it's still not the way it was originally made to be seen. The stuff on the sides isn't part of that "intended" image.

This is the same reason most people prefer the Double Features over the Funi singles. Or, at least, part of it. The Double Features are in 16:9. But the original prints were in 4:3, so the singles have more picture on the top and bottom. However, because they were ANIMATED specifically to be cropped to 16:9, some parts outside that ratio are animated badly and you can tell. They knew they were making it for 16:9, so when making the animation itself the image was meant to be framed that way. Same with 4:3 in the TV show.
And so you say some things animated outside that ratio were done poorly? Hence possibly the coming in of re-drawing certain things and extending backgrounds?

It's true. You have a point, they made the show for 4:3. However, re-framing it will solve most of the problems. It's not going to be that big of a deal honestly, if re-framed to avoid stupid things like someone's head getting chopped off or whatever. I mean, face it, that's the best they can really do because everything is moving towards this high-def stuff and that's one reason they've chosen to do this in the first place. It's not going to drastically change the show up, so I think everyone is over-reacting a little. TOEI already released the Dragon Boxes anyway. So what's the big deal here?

I know some just wish they re-animated it to begin with, I'm one of them, but they didn't. I still don't think the cropping is that big of a deal, honestly.

User avatar
Super Ghost Kamikaze
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1809
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:10 pm

Post by Super Ghost Kamikaze » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:34 pm

snaku wrote: What right do you have to be pissed at Toei over Kai? They've already given us the original version, properly restored, and readily available on DVD in the form of the Dragon Box's or the singles. Is that not all this fandom has ever asked for?
I'd also hope that they wouldn't release a version of my favorite movies with pink bows digitally added to everyone's heads, no matter what is out now. And I think we can critisize a product even if another product is out that is good. Just because the Dragon Boxes and their singles are good, does that automatically give Kai a free pass? It seems like that's the consensus, but it seems sorta silly to me.
Toei doesn't do this kind of thing for just any show. Dragon Ball Z is special, and they're giving it this special treatment for the sake of old fans who'd like to experience the show they love in a new way, and for the young people who haven't been exposed to the show before. If you don't like the direction they're going with this, then buy the DBox singles.
So on one hand, we CAN praise and love Dragon Ball Kai, but if we DON'T like it we should shut up and get the original? I don't see how that's a good basis for a discussion.
Attn Haters: Toei did not murder your parents, run over your dog, poop in your soup, or steal your girlfriend. Please stop acting like they did.
Neither did Funimation. I still don't like their dub, and I'm allowed to say that. =/
Zenkai Power wrote:
I know some just wish they re-animated it to begin with, I'm one of them, but they didn't. I still don't think the cropping is that big of a deal, honestly.
Not that big of a deal? Probably. But I still think it's a bad idea. If they're trying to refresh the original show, well, I don't think cropping is necessary or a good idea. That's all I'm saying. Not personally insulting anybody or their mothers, here.
Last edited by Super Ghost Kamikaze on Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MajinVejitaXV
Slut of the Daizenshuu EX Family
Posts: 3149
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:39 am

Post by MajinVejitaXV » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:34 pm

Yi Xing Long wrote:Since when is this a fact? That was rumor started by Wasted Wisher. They are not adding any new footage to the sides.
No offense, but (while I understand and accept that I erroneously used Wasted Wisher as a source) how can you say that for certain? Aside from the statement about the series not being cropped, almost everything he has said has come to fruition.
Toei would be losing massive amounts of money if they decided to "add to the sides of the frames."
Can you give me the financial breakdown? I'm curious what the production cost would be.
I don't know why Funimation didn't use tilt-and-scan... it seems nonsensical not to.
Their entire remaster/restoration was based on using machinery set to "auto" for the most part. Any re-framing would involve actual human intervention, which would have cost more than they were willing to spend.
Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:Yes. We can also wait a month before praising them throwing musical numbers in the streets. But we're going to reach conclusions based on promotional material that the material wasn't meant to convey, because we want to know everything. And we're going to have opinions on the theories.
That's fine, it's just a bit asinine. Far be it from me to stop people from saying stupid things ;)

-Corey

User avatar
Zenkai Power
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:07 am

Post by Zenkai Power » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:39 pm

Just to be fair, I am not discrediting wasted wisher on the re-drawing of anything. I believe he was telling the truth. I just am not sure if that information was correct. I mean I haven't noticed TOEI advertise that and I haven't seen any actual evidence of it. I'm wondering myself if that was true and TOEI really re-drew anything.

User avatar
Super Ghost Kamikaze
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1809
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:10 pm

Post by Super Ghost Kamikaze » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:41 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote: That's fine, it's just a bit asinine. Far be it from me to stop people from saying stupid things ;)
What do you want to do, kill this community? ;)
Zenkai Power wrote:Just to be fair, I am not discrediting wasted wisher on the re-drawing of anything. I believe he was telling the truth. I just am not sure if that information was correct. I mean I haven't noticed TOEI advertise that and I haven't seen any actual evidence of it. I'm wondering myself if that was true and TOEI really re-drew anything.
My guess is that they're just adding some animation where the original stuff looked bad, or doing something special for key scenes or fights. Just bits here and there, with the majority of the show being the original animation.

User avatar
snaku
Regular
Posts: 610
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:02 am
Location: HFl L
Contact:

Post by snaku » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:45 pm

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:So on one hand, we CAN praise and love Dragon Ball Kai, but if we DON'T like it we should shut up and get the original? I don't see how that's a good basis for a discussion.
Endlessly bitching and whining over it is not the basis for a good discussion. The show isn't even out yet, but when that first episode airs I hope there'll be a constructive discussion about it. If the re-framing is not a distraction, I'm not going to sit there and bitch about it just because I'm aware that I can't see the entire picture. Kai should be judged on its own merits.
Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:Neither did Funimation. I still don't like their dub, and I'm allowed to say that. =/
No they didn't, but they did betray an awful lot of their fan base by prematurely ending the UUEs. Those Funi R1 singles were not cheap, and many were left with incomplete collections that cost them hundreds of dollars, and years of collecting, because Funi decided to move on from 4:3 DBZ. And then they turn around and replace their OOP 4:3 releases with a half assed, poor quality product. The way they handled that wasn't exactly endearing.

User avatar
Super Ghost Kamikaze
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1809
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:10 pm

Post by Super Ghost Kamikaze » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:55 pm

snaku wrote:
Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:So on one hand, we CAN praise and love Dragon Ball Kai, but if we DON'T like it we should shut up and get the original? I don't see how that's a good basis for a discussion.
Endlessly bitching and whining over it is not the basis for a good discussion. The show isn't even out yet, but when that first episode airs I hope there'll be a constructive discussion about it. If the re-framing is not a distraction, I'm not going to sit there and bitch about it just because I'm aware that I can't see the entire picture. Kai should be judged on its own merits.
And I say endlessly praising it isn't the basis for a good discussion. I'm going to allow myself to form an opinion gradually based on what comes out, rather than waiting until I've seen the entirety of the show and gone through several trials before I allow myself opinions. =)

No they didn't, but they did betray an awful lot of their fan base by prematurely ending the UUEs. Those Funi R1 singles were not cheap, and many were left with incomplete collections that cost them hundreds of dollars, and years of collecting, because Funi decided to move on from 4:3 DBZ. And then they turn around and replace their OOP 4:3 releases with a half assed, poor quality product. The way they handled that wasn't exactly endearing.
Yes. And when Funi did that:

-My parents were still alive
-My dog was not run over
-My soup remained poop-free
-I still didn't have a girlfriend(at that point)

And yet, amazingly, people were still upset. Because a bad product decision was made. Your standards of a bad decision and mine differ sometimes. I think, as long as we're civil to each other, we can discuss those differences. That is what a forum is for.

User avatar
snaku
Regular
Posts: 610
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:02 am
Location: HFl L
Contact:

Post by snaku » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:59 pm

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:Yes. And when Funi did that:

-My parents were still alive
-My dog was not run over
-My soup remained poop-free
-I still didn't have a girlfriend(at that point)

And yet, amazingly, people were still upset.
People were upset because a lot of them felt they were swindled. It's pretty crazy how upset some people get when you mess with their money.

User avatar
Super Ghost Kamikaze
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1809
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:10 pm

Post by Super Ghost Kamikaze » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:03 pm

snaku wrote:
Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:Yes. And when Funi did that:

-My parents were still alive
-My dog was not run over
-My soup remained poop-free
-I still didn't have a girlfriend(at that point)

And yet, amazingly, people were still upset.
People were upset because a lot of them felt they were swindled. It's pretty crazy how upset some people get when you mess with their money.
The videos they bought are still watchable. There's still something available for those episodes, widescreen or not.

Maybe it comes from being a fan of some series that have stopped being released in the US halfway through, or that have had multiple releases of varying quality from different companies. But that all the episodes are on DVD at all is fine by me. That some don't match the rest isn't THAT big of a deal, is it? Did Funimation walk into every UUE owner's house and steal their DVDs?

User avatar
Zenkai Power
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 176
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 3:07 am

Post by Zenkai Power » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:04 pm

snaku wrote:
Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote:Yes. And when Funi did that:

-My parents were still alive
-My dog was not run over
-My soup remained poop-free
-I still didn't have a girlfriend(at that point)

And yet, amazingly, people were still upset.
People were upset because a lot of them felt they were swindled. It's pretty crazy how upset some people get when you mess with their money.
If you're talking about when they started re-releasing it on DVD again.... and made it up to like the Namek saga and switched to the orange bricks...

Yeah they were swindled. That's exactly what happened. They suddenly decided to dump a new "set" in favor of another... consequences on those collecting an unfinished new DVD set be damned.

User avatar
JulieYBM
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 18633
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:25 pm
Location: 🏳️‍⚧️🍉

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:10 pm

Super Ghost Kamikaze wrote: Did Funimation walk into every UUE owner's house and steal their DVDs?
Naw, mine are still on my shelf...

...oh, wait.

Life isn't always fair, we've all learned that the hard way. Now, let's get on with our lifes.
💙💜💖 She/Her 💙💜💖

User avatar
DemonRin
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1390
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:50 am
Location: Somewhere
Contact:

Post by DemonRin » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:11 pm

Hey... Long time lurker... I made something for Tsukento before we got this trailer since he wanted to make something with it and he needed a good hi-res version of the logo which didn't exist.
I promised him when Daizex came back I'd post it here, so here it is, for anyone who wants it, Super hi-Res DBK Logo I made from scratch
Image
(Click to see full size version)

User avatar
snaku
Regular
Posts: 610
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:02 am
Location: HFl L
Contact:

Post by snaku » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:12 pm

DemonRin wrote:Super hi-Res DBK Logo I made from scratch
Image
(Click to see full size version)
Nice. :)

User avatar
Chuquita
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 15277
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:16 am
Location: Somewhere

Post by Chuquita » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:15 pm

snaku wrote:
DemonRin wrote:Super hi-Res DBK Logo I made from scratch
Image
(Click to see full size version)
Nice. :)

I concur. :mrgreen: Very nice logo.


I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with the editing and such.
On hiatus.

User avatar
Super Ghost Kamikaze
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1809
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:10 pm

Post by Super Ghost Kamikaze » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:15 pm

Chuquita wrote:
snaku wrote:
DemonRin wrote:Super hi-Res DBK Logo I made from scratch
Image
(Click to see full size version)
Nice. :)

I concur. :mrgreen: Very nice logo.


I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with the editing and such.
I concur with that concurring!

That' is EXTREMELY impressive. How'd you do it?

User avatar
DemonRin
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1390
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:50 am
Location: Somewhere
Contact:

Post by DemonRin » Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:20 pm

I vectored it from scratch in Photoshop using the pen tool for the lines around "DRAGON BALL KAI", then made a clouded gradient for the KAI, gave it all a heavy drop shadow, then I hand-drew in the thundery zappy things with my tablet, then I typed up the katakana and kanji with a couple of fonts I have that look close to what was there to begin with (though I had to edit the Kai kanji slightly)

Post Reply