Rationalize filler!

Endishiki · Post by **Endishiki** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:58 am

See if you can do something difficult...

See if you can rationalize filler! Filler, as we all know by now, is injected by the prodcuers to stretch out the series and give the mangaka time to work on his stuff. However, the problem with filler is that it usually makes little to sense at all. The writers apparently listen to fan requests or sketch up little ideas while half-drunken, and put it into the works. The result can wildly vary, as seen in both DB and DBZ.

Can you take this filler, then, and give it some sort of meaning? Some sort of DB logic?

Any filler at all, though a few fun ones include the humans versus the Ginyu Force, Pikuhan defeating Perfect Cell in one blow, and Goku versus Super Buu (with Gohan absorbed). Also, no wizards. Seriously.

The driving episode ones aren't too hard to figure, so they're out by default.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:04 am

Hmmm, I think the Paikuhan beating Cell thing was due to a wizard holding Cell down. In conclusion:

....wait, scratch the wizard part!

It's simple, Paikuhan was stronger than Cell, and the only logical reasons Goku, who should be weaker than Cell, beat Paikuhan is because:

A. Since being dead let's you access more of your power, Goku was UBER strong.
B. Goku got lucky.
C. a wizard did it

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:11 am

Some of that filler stuff was terribly far fetched.

As for Tenshinhan & Yamcha defeating the Ginyu force, why not? They had been training at Kaio-sama's for awhile by then (longer than Goku I think), and when they had first arrived, they were much stronger than Goku had been. Besides; the Ginyu force wasn't that tough, for being the strongest fighters in the universe. Half way through the Freeza fight, both Vegeta and Gohan became powerful enough to defeat the Ginyu force on their own.

Paikuhan defeating Cell with one blow...I spent many an hour trying to rationalize this; until I discovered it was filler. Maybe Paikuhan simply caught Cell off guard, and struck him in a vital area (Very plaussible, given his level of skill). Maybe being sent to hell somehow limits Cell's powers in some way, or that Paikuhan was given some kind of advantage by going there. Or maybe it was Bibidi...

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:29 am

This is totally off topic, but that new avatar...."puff-puffs"!
About the Ginyu Force thing, I've done calculations, and Tenshinhan can't be over 25,000, Yamcha's around the 18,000-ish area, and Chaozu....oh, poor Chaozu. It's impossible. Unless a wizard helped...

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:35 am

1. Humans Versus Ginyu Force - Note that they didn't actually KILL the Ginyu Force. They only knocked them off King Kai's planet into Hell. Surely they'd be able to do that with skillful training and good techniques. Heck, Vegeta was smacking around Recoome, even though he couldn't beat Recoome.

2. Pikkon Versus Cell - King Yemma probably cut Cell's power severely when he sent Cell to Hell.
Or, Pikkon found a weak spot.
Or, Goku was delibrately holding back in the Cell Games because he wanted Gohan to take over (Hey, he did the same thing when SS3 versus Fat Buu).
Or, Goku's power doesn't drain while dead, so he could use more power against Pikkon.
Or, it's a tournament. Goku may have been weaker, but if he could make Pikkon land outside the ring, he still wins.
Or, um... Goku used a weaker version of the Super Kaioken to make his power be just enough to knock Pikkon into the dirt.

Endishiki · Post by **Endishiki** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:36 am

Wow, that's one I haven't seen! How do you do it, Deus?

Also: I can picture Gohan and Vegita becoming stronger than the Ginyu Force. Cause they're Saiyans. Saiyans grow stronger after near-death defeats. Reacoom beat the crap out of both of them, and they in turn became far stronger than Reacoom.

The humans, on the other hand, don't have access to such routes. They gain strength through training, and they obviously don't gain it as fast as the Saiyans do. And while their levels of strength would help them match up to Nappa or possibly, maybe, even Vegita when he first arrived...

There is nothing to show that they'd have gained enough power to be able to oppose the Ginyu Force. Keep in mind, also, that the Ginyu Force attack the humans on Kaio's planet only so many hours after the Ginyu Force battle.

... then again, I'm never sure how much strength the humans actually gain through training.

So who can say for sure?

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:54 am

The weird thing about that which Toei didn't notice apparently was that the Ginyu Force's bodies were still on Namek after they went to Hell.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:00 am

I know how their bodies got there, but you're not gonna like it...

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:15 am

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:This is totally off topic, but that new avatar...."puff-puffs"!

I'm impressed you could tell who was down there so easily.

Endishiki wrote:Wow, that's one I haven't seen! How do you do it, Deus?

I have my sources...

I still say Kaio-sama's training could've increased Yamcha and Tenshinhan's powers to the level where they could defeat the Ginyu force. I mean, why not? He's supposed to be the greatest fighting instructor in the northern galaxy, and he beefed up Goku from a battle power of 300 to over 5000 in only 2 months (I can't remember his exact power now).

However, Yamcha defeating Olibu...that just makes my head hurt.

Super Sonic wrote:The weird thing about that which Toei didn't notice apparently was that the Ginyu Force's bodies were still on Namek after they went to Hell.

It almost seems like Toriyama just gave up on the idea that bodies had to be preserved or taken by Kami-sama, to be used later. After all, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu's bodies were preserved in cryo-stasus at CC, yet they have new bodies to go train with in the afterlife, and the dragon doesn't need the original body to restore someone's life either.

Which really makes me wonder; Tenshinhan was restored to life after dying against Nappa, and his arm was restored. Yet both he and Yamcha still have their scars...does that make any sense?

Then Toei went one step further; going against Toriyama's idea that people who go to hell lose their bodies, and in all their Hell filler, all the villians had bodies.

Endishiki · Post by **Endishiki** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:25 am

Hmmm... so... Goku was a saiyan, so he gained power quickly there... but the humans arrived and gained that power in a quicker amount of time... I suppose Kaio really does have interesting training techniques if he can raise the humans that high! What I mentioned about the Saiyans still applies, though... they still jump far, far above the humans in the Freeza saga due to all of the chaotic mishaps, and continue that pattern long after.

The villains in hell thing is never really very well explained by Toei. And think about it... for having done such terrible things in life, the villains sure did it get easy after dying. They got free cable TV, after all!

Yamcha had the advantage against Olibu because Yamcha is obviously equal to or stronger than Perfect Cell. This is because Yamcha trained up a Super Roga Fu Fu Ken and absorbed its energy. Or somesuch. I don't know.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:33 am

Deus ex Machina wrote:
Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:This is totally off topic, but that new avatar...."puff-puffs"!
I'm impressed you could tell who was down there so easily.

Hahaha, I could spot a Puff-Puff from a mile away...

My favorite hot part was when Yamcha fought Invisible-Man, and Kuririn went to get Roshi and Bulma, and he takes off Bulma's shirt to make Roshi have a nosebleed...Perfect shot

Oh, wait, I thought that was tomato soup!!

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:43 am

Endishiki wrote:Hmmm... so... Goku was a saiyan, so he gained power quickly there... but the humans arrived and gained that power in a quicker amount of time... I suppose Kaio really does have interesting training techniques if he can raise the humans that high! What I mentioned about the Saiyans still applies, though... they still jump far, far above the humans in the Freeza saga due to all of the chaotic mishaps, and continue that pattern long after.

Nope; like I said, Goku only trained on Kaio-sama's planet for a mere 2 months, and increased his power drastically. Even given his Saiyan advantages, the other Z-senshi had much longer than that. (Again, I don't remember how long precisely, 6 months I think)

Also consider how much everyone's power increased in a single year, while training at Kami-Sama's palace. With only the benefit of weighted training clothes, and a little instruction, they went from battle powers of 100-200, to an average of 1000+

With the advantages of 10x gravity of Kaio-sama's planet, and his unique (bizzare) training exercises, I think half a year would be plenty of time for them to drastically increase their powers.

Yamcha had the advantage against Olibu because Yamcha is obviously equal to or stronger than Perfect Cell. This is because Yamcha trained up a Super Roga Fu Fu Ken and absorbed its energy. Or somesuch. I don't know.

Of course, it was so obvious. Why didn't I see it before?

Endishiki · Post by **Endishiki** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:52 am

Deus ex Machina wrote:Nope; like I said, Goku only trained on Kaio-sama's planet for a mere 2 months, and increased his power drastically. Even given his Saiyan advantages, the other Z-senshi had much longer than that. (Again, I don't remember how long precisely, 6 months I think)

Also consider how much everyone's power increased in a single year, while training at Kami-Sama's palace. With only the benefit of weighted training clothes, and a little instruction, they went from battle powers of 100-200, to an average of 1000+

With the advantages of 10x gravity of Kaio-sama's planet, and his unique (bizzare) training exercises, I think half a year would be plenty of time for them to drastically increase their powers.

Ah, that does make sense. I was disappointed that the humans (except for Kuririn, obviously) never got a chance to do something against Freeza with the fruit of their training...

While they'd obviously still be far, far below in terms of power, I do wonder how a Kikoho would do against Freeza...

Yamcha had the advantage against Olibu because Yamcha is obviously equal to or stronger than Perfect Cell. This is because Yamcha trained up a Super Roga Fu Fu Ken and absorbed its energy. Or somesuch. I don't know.

Of course, it was so obvious. Why didn't I see it before?

[/quote]

Exactly. Yamcha's just suppressing his power.

... all the time.

El_Diablo · Post by **El_Diablo** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:10 am

But Yamcha and Co. had only been on Kaio's planet for a week, two weeks tops when the Ginyu force were "invited".

Sun_Wukong · Post by **Sun_Wukong** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:05 am

Ten and Yamucha could very well have been as strong as Gohan and Kuririn when they fought the Ginyu force. Thats my theory. But as if your power increases or decreases when your in the afterlife? Who knows, ask Toei.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:27 pm

Actually they were at Kaio-Sama's place training before Goku ever got on Namek, and they had been dead for some time before that, and for them making it across snake way probably helped a lot, remember Goku struggled with it, so they must have had one hell of a time.

As for defeating the Ginyu force, as pointed out earlier all they had to do was a "ring out" - thats much easier to do, than KO them or killing them.

And you'll notice Chaotzu does NOT have an easy time with it either.

El_Diablo · Post by **El_Diablo** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:36 pm

They had just arrived while Goku was in the middle of Training.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:37 pm

That they did but again making it THERE probably helped a little as well.

And you also ignolre the diffrences between ring out and beating someone to a bloody pulp.

El_Diablo · Post by **El_Diablo** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:50 pm

No way that people who were around 1500 can get to over 50,000 in less than two weeks

Dai · Post by **Dai** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

Goku got from 300 to what, 30,000 (?) in a couple of months. The rest of the gang has shown absurdly fast progress compared to him (Think training under Kami-sama, here), so I don't really think what you're saying isn't plausible at the least. In fact, I'd say it's less likely for them not to have mustered enough power to ''ring out'' some powerful goons after two weeks of divine training.

And besides, I think we're relying much too much on numbers here.