Exactly how strong were the Kaioshin?

[Horgus]

One reason that Goku got so much more out of that post Ginyu zenkai than Vegeta is because Goku did extensive gravity training.

While Vegeta got beaten up repeatedly, it's not too much of a stretch for extensive gravity training to be much more intensive than just fighting.

Vegeta largely made up the distance between him and Goku by his post-Freeza gravity training, too.

[Kingdom Heartless]

One reason that Goku got so much more out of that post Ginyu zenkai than Vegeta is because Goku did extensive gravity training.

While Vegeta got beaten up repeatedly, it's not too much of a stretch for extensive gravity training to be much more intensive than just fighting.

Vegeta largely made up the distance between him and Goku by his post-Freeza gravity training, too.

That's how I feel.

I mean, with no training Vegeta went from about 18,000 to about 2,000,000, through various zenkais.

I'm not going to get upset because Goku got bigger boosts after undergoing ridiculously tough training.

I feel he got a bigger power-up because he had trained his body to handle such increases.

[Dayspring]

One reason that Goku got so much more out of that post Ginyu zenkai than Vegeta is because Goku did extensive gravity training.

While Vegeta got beaten up repeatedly, it's not too much of a stretch for extensive gravity training to be much more intensive than just fighting.

Vegeta largely made up the distance between him and Goku by his post-Freeza gravity training, too.

That's how I feel.

I mean, with no training Vegeta went from about 18,000 to about 2,000,000, through various zenkais.

I'm not going to get upset because Goku got bigger boosts after undergoing ridiculously tough training.

I feel he got a bigger power-up because he had trained his body to handle such increases.

So getting zenkais under 100gs also trained his zenkai ability (meaning the amount gained by zenkais would be greater)? Plausible. I like it.

This makes me think zenkais work with the "muscle strength" attribute of going SSJ2. In other words, since zenkais are caused completely by a physical attribute, it's possible the amount gained by a zenkai would go up the higher one's muscle strength is. This also works with the 100g theory, as gravity would probably only increase one's muscle strength (and maybe genki). This could also explain why zenkais seem to disappear in the android saga: since muscle strength can reach a limit, at one point it's possible for zenkai gains to be considered negligeable.

Factoring Ginyu in Goku's body (23,000), we can guess that about 1/4 of Goku's 90,000 PL is all muscle strength. Meanwhile Vegeta's muscle strength is quite low in comparison:
PL = Muscle Strength + Ki (where Ki = genki+youki+shouki)
When Vegeta's PL is 18,000, he gets a gain of 6,000. Not having a chance to train his muscle strength, the next zenkai is the same boost. One could argue that the intensity of the battle against Recoom increased his muscle strength (Zarbon's wouldn't since it was completely one-sided), and thus got him the crazy zenkai for against Freeza. This would also explain why his near-death from Krillin would be as high as it was, but not as high as Goku's; it used his muscle strength to its limits, which is why it was a large boost than from Recoom, but those limits were still significantly lower than Goku's muscle strength.

[Kingdom Heartless]

That's great, Dayspring!

I've never had a theory expanded on like that.

[Dayspring]

That's great, Dayspring!

I've never had a theory expanded on like that.

Yay, I'm useful for once!

[Onikage725]

It's interesting in theory, and would be a good mechanic for a game of some sort.

However, I think it's sloppy to consider as an intentional part of the narrative. The implication for how the power boosts are explained is basically that one had best kill a Saiyan, because his body is going to adapt from the experience and next time he'll be tougher. "Whatever doesn't kill me..."

I've always thought of it as similar to Doomsday from DC comics.

So, to my thinking, the key factor here is less "strength of the fighter" (though that is certainly an important factor as well) and more "severity of the injury."

Vegeta is a prime example of this, and is mostly in keeping with that analysis. Gohan is too, in my opinion. It's hard to track him due to his halfbreed lineage, ever-present rage/untapped potential flare ups, Saichorou's boost, and very few scouter scans. But at the height of his anger in the Saiyan Saga, he was able to annoy Nappa and barely hold off an exhausted Vegeta. In the Freeza Saga, he can (briefly) stand up to Freeza in his second and third forms. His training between the two sagas wasn't all that. And after his power up he didn't seem all that different from Kuririn. The anger factor was certainly a part of it, but I also think most of it came from that ridiculously hard blow he took from Reacoome (and the convenient healing he soon received when his dad showed up).

Goku, though. Goku. He's a total freak in this theory. Either his gain from what Vegeta did to him was small, or his 100g training wasn't that impressive. And one single recovery later he can tussle with 4th form Freeza. The other two follow some loose but established logic. Goku seems to be "Toriyama said I could do it, so I did."

[Kingdom Heartless]

That's great, Dayspring!

I've never had a theory expanded on like that.

Yay, I'm useful for once!

Hey, that's my line!

I respect your posts a lot, and your response to mine honestly made me happier than it should have.

[Bussani]

So, to my thinking, the key factor here is less "strength of the fighter" (though that is certainly an important factor as well) and more "severity of the injury."

I sorta agree. As Rocketman pointed out once before, building your muscles is basically a process of pushing them to the point of damage so when they fix themselves they do so stronger. That's what exercise is apparently. Saiyajin must take this to the extreme.

But that doesn't mean Dayspring if wrong. Maybe it's a mix of their current strength and the severity. I dunno though, there might be even more factors.

[Kingdom Heartless]

While we're on the subject, do we assume Vegeta got a zenkai after he collapsed due to fatigue? It would explain why he was head to head with Freeza.

And another question! I would have thought the zenkai would do away with that fatigue. If not, then Goku faced off against Vegeta after being awake for like 36 hours or something. Which raises another question! Do the Saiya-jin require less sleep than people?

[JulieYBM]

While we're on the subject, do we assume Vegeta got a zenkai after he collapsed due to fatigue? It would explain why he was head to head with Freeza.

And another question! I would have thought the zenkai would do away with that fatigue. If not, then Goku faced off against Vegeta after being awake for like 36 hours or something. Which raises another question! Do the Saiya-jin require less sleep than people?

Well, the senzu and the excitement probably kept Son up for quite some time...

[goodguy777]

The topic is "Exactly how strong were the Kaioshin?

[Dayspring]

So, to my thinking, the key factor here is less "strength of the fighter" (though that is certainly an important factor as well) and more "severity of the injury."

I sorta agree. As Rocketman pointed out once before, building your muscles is basically a process of pushing them to the point of damage so when they fix themselves they do so stronger. That's what exercise is apparently. Saiyajin must take this to the extreme.

But that doesn't mean Dayspring if wrong. Maybe it's a mix of their current strength and the severity. I dunno though, there might be even more factors.

A mixture makes the most sense. It's definitely not just muscle strength. If it were, then Vegeta's zenkai from Krillin would be the same amount as it was from Recoom. I just think it's not only wound severity either, otherwise Vegeta should have been stronger than Goku.

As for the senzu, I figure it heals physical wounds, but the only kind of ki it replenishes is genki. Since lack of sleep affects the mind (shouki), Vegeta still needed to sleep, just not as much as if he hadn't taken the senzu.

The RPGer in me is loving the whole PL = Muscle Strength + Ki (where Ki = genki, youki, and shouki) equation. It makes it easy to come up with game rules for ki suppression, how to go SSJ and use Rage, how to control Oozaru, and where to get sent to when you die (Hell, Heaven, Kaio, etc). I do believe I'll attempt to create a set of game mechanics.

As for the on-topic prompt, I think the Kaioshin who was assimilated by Boo was stronger than Kid Boo, but not strong enough to keep his "debris" from regenerating back to normal. I'd guess that the Kaioshin we all know would be between the androids and second form Cell's strength. The Dai Kaioshin I'd put as between second and perfect form Cell, and the other two between Cell and Fat Boo.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

You think the Strongest Kaioshin was stronger then Boo, Dayspring? Wasn't it implied that Super Saiyan Gohan was like the greatest thing since sliced bread, and possibly the only hope of beating Boo? Combine that with the fact that Super Saiyan Gohan releases the Z-sword with Kibito stating no Kaioshin ever released it, I'd say he can't be stronger then Kid Boo.

He probably was absorbed just because; similiar to Dai Kaioshin.

[Dayspring]

You think the Strongest Kaioshin was stronger then Boo, Dayspring? Wasn't it implied that Super Saiyan Gohan was like the greatest thing since sliced bread, and possibly the only hope of beating Boo? Combine that with the fact that Super Saiyan Gohan releases the Z-sword with Kibito stating no Kaioshin ever released it, I'd say he can't be stronger then Kid Boo.

He probably was absorbed just because; similiar to Dai Kaioshin.

Woopsy. I'd toss that up to a plothole, as Toriyama (or at least TOEI, I can't recall the exact description in the manga) intended for him to be a general match for Kid Boo. But for an in-story explanation, I'm just going to say you're right.

Interesting point. If he's not even stronger than Dabura, I wonder how old Dabura is.

Anyhoo, personally I think the strongest Kaioshin is only between Cell's two imperfect forms, Dai Kaioshin as strong as #17, the Kaioshin we know as strong as #18, and the other two as strong as #16.

[Onikage725]

Woopsy. I'd toss that up to a plothole, as Toriyama (or at least TOEI, I can't recall the exact description in the manga) intended for him to be a general match for Kid Boo. But for an in-story explanation, I'm just going to say you're right.

Interesting point. If he's not even stronger than Dabura, I wonder how old Dabura is.

Anyhoo, personally I think the strongest Kaioshin is only between Cell's two imperfect forms, Dai Kaioshin as strong as #17, the Kaioshin we know as strong as #18, and the other two as strong as #16.

Are we talking about South Kaioshin? I thought they only mentioned his strength in regards to the other Kaioshin. He gave Buu a fairly decent boost into his "buff" form, but I don't think anything implied that he was on Buu's level (in the manga anyway).

[Bussani]

While we're on the subject, do we assume Vegeta got a zenkai after he collapsed due to fatigue? It would explain why he was head to head with Freeza.

And another question! I would have thought the zenkai would do away with that fatigue. If not, then Goku faced off against Vegeta after being awake for like 36 hours or something. Which raises another question! Do the Saiya-jin require less sleep than people?

A zenkai comes from recovering, not the other way around.

Senzu are supposed to fully heal you and restore all your strength.