Son Gohan's Mystic Potential

[Piccolo Daimao]

In the Majin Boo Saga, Old Kaioshin unlocks all of Son Gohan's full hidden potential, and he has reached the limit of his powers. Now I have a question to propose. Most assume that Son Gohan did not train for the 10 years after Kid Boo's destruction, myself included. But did Gohan decrease in power like he did 7 years after the Cell Games? My theory is that he did not. This is because Old Kaioshin had released all of his unlocked hidden power. If he decreased in power, then that would mean that he wouldn't be at his full power, and that Old Kaioshin's potential-unlocking ritual would be something of a waste if some of that power was lost. It might seem confusing, but that's what I think anyway.

Another question that I want to touch upon is Gohan's inability to go Super Saiyan. I've heard some ridiculous theories such as if Gohan were to go Super Saiyan, the planet will explode. My theory is that because Gohan has reached his max (or exceeded it, whatever way you percieve Old Kai's comments to be), he can't go Super Saiyan because he is already at his strongest form, much more stronger than if he were to go Super Saiyan 2.

Any thoughts?

[Rocketman]

The Mystic ritual replaced Super Saiyan. He literally does not have that powerup anymore.

[Vekurotto]

Gohan's power had decreased before Old Kaioshin unlocked his potential. Vegeta noted at the 25th Budokai and when he fought Dabura that Gohan's wasn't anywhere near the level he was when he fought Cell.

Another question that I want to touch upon is Gohan's inability to go Super Saiyan. I've heard some ridiculous theories such as if Gohan were to go Super Saiyan, the planet will explode. My theory is that because Gohan has reached his max (or exceeded it, whatever way you percieve Old Kai's comments to be), he can't go Super Saiyan because he is already at his strongest form, much more stronger than if he were to go Super Saiyan 2.

Which is exactly what I think regarding the matter. As far as I assumed, Gohan's Ultimate Form was his "Super Saiyan" form.

[MCDaveG]

I think, that the reason he can't go Super Saiyan is because he naturally forget it..... The reason why saiyans are turning to super saiyans is because they need their bodies to whitstand huge amount of energy the saiyans need to fight in actual situation, so it's like they are unlocking their powers by non-naturally and hard way. But Gohan have that power already unlocked in different mechanism and that natural way, so he don't goes Super Saiyan, because his body is now fully compatible with that energy he needs to....

Is this possible?

[rereboy]

The ritual is basically to turn Son gohan into the absolute best he can be.

Its like he had all the training the world could possibly give him, he was in his abolute top physical form and his hidden powers are all out in the open, all at the same time. That`s the "mystic" form.

Therefore, Gohan can`t become any stronger. Not even with the SSJ form, because all his hidden powers are already unlocked. It`s like he was already at a form of SSJ, but with his base apperance.

However, that doesn`t mean that he can`t become weaker. If he couldn`t become weaker, then we could say that it would be possible for him to never train again, be 80 years old, and still pretty much had all the power he had in his mystic form.

Therefore, I consider possible for gohan to become weaker, and so, since he didn`t train seriously in 7 years, he became weaker. How much weaker we don`t know.

And I consider GT a plot hole in many things. So I`m not arguing based on GT.

[Kaboom]

See, the whole "this is the absolute best Gohan can ever be" thing never sat well with me. If that were really the case, then Gohan must have a really short life ahead of him or he sucks more than we thought. Because I can guarantee if he kept up regularly training for his entire remaining life, he'd be a LOT more powerful than he ended up. Gotenks-Buu wouldn't have beaten him, and he'd make Vegetto look like nothing. We all know that last one is ridiculous, so...

"Potential" power, as I've come to understand it in DragonBall, is some amount of reserve, untapped power that can't always be accessed by normal means. Training can bring it out, but even then it just creates more potential on top of that. No matter how powerful a character gets, there is ALWAYS room to get even stronger. That's been one of DragonBall's key narrative points since day one.

Different characters' "potential" power works in different ways. It's my theory that Goku was able to force his out via the Kaio-Ken, and the reason he was able to use higher Kaio-Ken multipliers later on was because his potential power was steadily growing larger and larger, with the end result being Super Saiyan. Letting loose and getting mad always allowed Gohan to tap into his "potential" power, and the most notable example of that was reaching SSj2. Uub's "potential" when we first met him was Kid Buu's full strength, but he needed training with Goku to fully bring it out, and even then he could further improve.

On Namek, Saichoro was able to bring out Gohan, Kuririn, and Dende's "potential," as much as it was at that time, rather quickly and easily. Gohan and Kuririn still continued to go on and train themselves more after that, though.

If you ask me, Old Kaio's ritual did essentially the same thing, with a few slight variations:

- Since he'd been slacking, Gohan had a LOT of "untapped potential." Had he been training at all for the last seven years, or if it'd been performed on someone who HAD, like Goku or Vegeta, the results of the ritual would probably be far less drastic.

- Part of the ritual apparently involved some method of rearranging his power altogether. Not only did it grant a considerable boost, but it also neatly compacted all of it into his base form. Now Gohan doesn't need to undergo stressful transformations like SSj2 in order to use all his power. In fact, he can't. All the energy has been completely re-channeled.

So in the end, it's more like Gohan got himself a brand-new, more effective transformation that replaced his old ones. But it didn't turn him into some sort of god.

[rereboy]

The idea sits very well with me because of one thing. DBGT was never supposed to exist. DBZ was supposed to be the end.

Therefore and looking only at DBZ who can be as strong as mystic Gohan?

SSJ3 goku? Besides Gohan and the fusions he is the strongest good guy and sayan. And it is pretty much implied that SSJ3 Goku is weaker than Mystic Gohan. SSJ3 Goku would have a hard time with regular super buu while Gohan beat the crap out of him.
And besides that, SSJ3 is such an extreme state that Goku could only sustain it well while he was dead.

Only the fusions can match mystic Gohan power, and those result in a being more powerful than the power of the two persons who fused combined.

Mystic Gohan could become stronger IF he fused. Not by himself.

And this sits well with me because DBZ was supposed to be the final series. In GT, I believe Goku becomes stronger than mystic gohan as a SSJ4, but like I said, in my opinion, DBGT is full of plot holes, and was not supposed to even exist when the idea for mystic Gohan came.

The idea in DBZ was, in my opinion, that the characters (the sayans) were reaching the limit of their power. That is an ideia fitting of the end of the series and it explains better why the fusions were introduced. They were pretty much the last way for the characters to get even stronger.

I believe Goku could still improve and master the SSJ3 state while living, but not much more.

[Dayspring]

Here's how I see how the power up works:

It unleashes all potential energy that would normally be obtained through years of experience of training and fighting, as well as from any transformations and other innate abilites (like near-death boosts). My own personal belief is that Kaioshin somehow adds to all this as well, but this part is up for debate.

Since the SSJ stages' energies are already being used in his base form, Gohan has no need to use SSJ. All it would do is cost energy to maintain the form (albeit very little), which would only result in him having shiny hair.

To explain the use of SSJ in GT, I do believe he lost energy from not training, and then SSJ is regaining up to 50x base. In other words, if he lost 17,000 PL in the gap, rather than SSJ being base x50, in GT it would be base + 17,000 (meaning SSJ GT Gohan is as strong as "Mystic" Gohan).

[rereboy]

To explain the use of SSJ in GT, I do believe he lost energy from not training, and then SSJ is regaining up to 50x base. In other words, if he lost 17,000 PL in the gap, rather than SSJ being base x50, in GT it would be base + 17,000 (meaning SSJ GT Gohan is as strong as "Mystic" Gohan).

I guess it`s up for debate, but if Gohan could be as strong as Mystic Gohan in GT, I doubt that baby would have consider Vegeta stronger.

[Dayspring]

To explain the use of SSJ in GT, I do believe he lost energy from not training, and then SSJ is regaining up to 50x base. In other words, if he lost 17,000 PL in the gap, rather than SSJ being base x50, in GT it would be base + 17,000 (meaning SSJ GT Gohan is as strong as "Mystic" Gohan).

I guess it`s up for debate, but if Gohan could be as strong as Mystic Gohan in GT, I doubt that baby would have consider Vegeta stronger.

For that, I blame it on being GT.

I remember hearing a decent explanation for this, in which GT took place in one of the first-made timelines (one without Cell). This lead to an altered Boo saga in which Goku was alive to take on Skinny Boo. Uub in GT ended up being a reincarnation of Skinny instead of Kid Boo. I'll see if I can find it.

[Metrite]

I've heard some ridiculous theories such as if Gohan were to go Super Saiyan, the planet will explode.

lol Where in the world did that idea ever come from? It's one of the oldest "explanations" as to why Gohan didn't go ssj there is. I guess somebody that watched the Buu saga just remembered the scenery of ssj3 Goku's first transformation and, not paying attention to the plain statement about why Gohan doesn't transform, figured if he's capable of taking on Buu in regular form, ssj would go as far as destroy the world. I even remember once reading a GT plothole list, one on it being that in Z Gohan couldn't go ssj because the world would explode but the world didn't explode when he did in GT.

And for the record, it's not a transformation. It's just normal form Gohan with all his power brought forth from the power he accessed via ssj(hence not transforming) to what he'd gain when angry(which is why he won't get stronger when mad, anymore).

I remember hearing a decent explanation for this, in which GT took place in one of the first-made timelines (one without Cell). Uub in GT ended up being a reincarnation of Skinny instead of Kid Boo.

That a funny theory considering Cell is in GT and Fat Buu's flashback clearly shows Uub came from Pure Buu being reborn.

[Saiyan-Professor]

To explain the use of SSJ in GT, I do believe he lost energy from not training, and then SSJ is regaining up to 50x base. In other words, if he lost 17,000 PL in the gap, rather than SSJ being base x50, in GT it would be base + 17,000 (meaning SSJ GT Gohan is as strong as "Mystic" Gohan).

I guess it`s up for debate, but if Gohan could be as strong as Mystic Gohan in GT, I doubt that baby would have consider Vegeta stronger.

I always saw it as Vegeta and Kakarrot continued to grow beyond the Z-levels of strength so even if Son Gohan could achieve the Ultimate power-up level of strength in Super Saiyan 1 or 2 in Dragonball GT, Vegeta at full power was beyond anything we saw in Z.

[rereboy]

It is possible.

But one would expect Vegeta to turn into a SSJ3 in any moment of GT when he was clearly being defeated, if he was able to do so.

Moments he could have done so:

- while first fighting baby
- while being pounded by Super 17
- while being pounded by omega after losing SSJ4 form (however he problably wouldn`t have enough ki to do so after losing SSJ4 form even if was able to turn SSJ3)

So, if he can`t turn SSJ3, and that`s what we are lead to believe, he can`t be as strong as Mystic Gohan or stronger, even if he is stronger than he was in Z (which I think so).

[Saiyan-Professor]

It is possible.

But one would expect Vegeta to turn into a SSJ3 in any moment of GT when he was clearly being defeated, if he was able to do so.

Moments he could have done so:

- while first fighting baby
- while being pounded by Super 17
- while being pounded by omega after losing SSJ4 form (however he problably wouldn`t have enough ki to do so after losing SSJ4 form even if was able to turn SSJ3)

So, if he can`t turn SSJ3, and that`s what we are lead to believe, he can`t be as strong as Mystic Gohan or stronger, even if he is stronger than he was in Z (which I think so).

As Herms and others pointed out in the new guide as well as in old ones the Super Saiyan transformations just functions as multipliers, the base form combat strength determines how strong a transformation will become. Vegeta’s base or Super Saiyan 1 in GT could have been as strong as Kakarrot’s Super Saiyan 3 combat power when he fought Kid Buu in Z.

[FuniYamcha]

It is possible.

But one would expect Vegeta to turn into a SSJ3 in any moment of GT when he was clearly being defeated, if he was able to do so.

Moments he could have done so:

- while first fighting baby
- while being pounded by Super 17
- while being pounded by omega after losing SSJ4 form (however he problably wouldn`t have enough ki to do so after losing SSJ4 form even if was able to turn SSJ3)

So, if he can`t turn SSJ3, and that`s what we are lead to believe, he can`t be as strong as Mystic Gohan or stronger, even if he is stronger than he was in Z (which I think so).

I think what Saiyan-Professor meant was that Vegeta's base, Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan forms had all become MUCH stronger than anything we saw in Z. Kid of like how at the end of Z, Goku's base form was infinitely stronger than anything we saw during Dragon Ball. So through intense training, Vegeta's base form could be the equivalent of the SSJ2 we saw in Z, for example. The only thing about that, is that it says that Gohan's ultimate potential which the Elder kai unlocked, was in fact not much. But that goes against the "ZOMGS, look at his hidden power!!!!1" thing they kept getting at in Z.

[rereboy]

Saiyan-Professor

Like I said, it is possible.

I just don`t think so.

But I never try to make much sense out of comparing Z and GT. Too many things that don`t work quite well, in my view. That`s why I presented my reasons for what I think about Mystic Gohan purelly based on Z.

FuniYamcha

I understood what Saiyan-Professor was trying to say.

However it doesn`t make much sense to me how Vegeta would become so powerful in his base and SSJ and SSJ2 form, without learning how to turn SSJ3 first.

I mean Goku`s base and SSJ and SSJ2 form in GT are probably as strong as Vegeta if not more, but he learned how to turn SSJ3 first. That`s why I have problems in agreeing with that.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Saiyan-Professor

Like I said, it is possible.

I just don`t think so.

But I never try to make much sense out of comparing Z and GT. Too many things that don`t work quite well, in my view. That`s why I presented my reasons for what I think about Mystic Gohan purelly based on Z.

FuniYamcha

I understood what Saiyan-Professor was trying to say.

However it doesn`t make much sense to me how Vegeta would become so powerful in his base and SSJ and SSJ2 form, without learning how to turn SSJ3 first.

I mean Goku`s base and SSJ and SSJ2 form in GT are probably as strong as Vegeta if not more, but he learned how to turn SSJ3 first. That`s why I have problems in agreeing with that.

The transformations does not work in the manner that you are thinking, they are just multipliers. They multiply the base strength; you can potentially have a Super Saiyan 1 that is stronger than a 3, it all depends on a character’s base combat strength. A character can be the strongest as a 1 or 2 without ever reaching a 3.

[Dayspring]

I remember hearing a decent explanation for this, in which GT took place in one of the first-made timelines (one without Cell). Uub in GT ended up being a reincarnation of Skinny instead of Kid Boo.

That a funny theory considering Cell is in GT and Fat Buu's flashback clearly shows Uub came from Pure Buu being reborn.

Ha! I forgot about all that. No wonder I couldn't find it; I probably never bothered to save it in the first place.

[rereboy]

Saiyan-Professor

Like I said, it is possible.

I just don`t think so.

But I never try to make much sense out of comparing Z and GT. Too many things that don`t work quite well, in my view. That`s why I presented my reasons for what I think about Mystic Gohan purelly based on Z.

FuniYamcha

I understood what Saiyan-Professor was trying to say.

However it doesn`t make much sense to me how Vegeta would become so powerful in his base and SSJ and SSJ2 form, without learning how to turn SSJ3 first.

I mean Goku`s base and SSJ and SSJ2 form in GT are probably as strong as Vegeta if not more, but he learned how to turn SSJ3 first. That`s why I have problems in agreeing with that.

The transformations does not work in the manner that you are thinking, they are just multipliers. They multiply the base strength; you can potentially have a Super Saiyan 1 that is stronger than a 3, it all depends on a character’s base combat strength. A character can be the strongest as a 1 or 2 without ever reaching a 3.

Yes, like I said I understood that.

However I find it very weird that Vegeta would be able to reach such a powerfull level at his base and SSJ and SSJ2 form without discovering and reaching SSJ3.

To put it simply, I think its a lot easier to, for example, discover and reach SSJ2 than to simply just reach SSJ but gather enough power with training so that the SSJ form (or even the base form) can rival the power of the SSJ2 form of another character. See what I mean?

I think it would be a lot easier to Vegeta do reach SSJ3 first, than achive that kind of power with his other forms. After all he obtained the SSJ and the SSJ2 form just by training. Not by some emotion. He`s a genius. I don`t think he wouldn`t be able to reach that form, before gaining that kind of power in his other forms.

That is why, I really don`t think his other forms are that more powerfull than in Z, since he doesn`t have the SSJ3 form.

If you need a parallel, it`s like when dragon ball ended and Z began. Goku and Piccolo spent 5 years in peace but training. But they dind`t get much more powerfull than before (they just have a few hundred unit more than roshi).
Which is weird when we compare that to the power that, for example, Piccolo gains in only one year training for the sayans, spending half of his time training a child. But that is what happens.

Like I said, what you say is very possible. But I just don`t think so.

[Bussani]

The original question is an interesting one that I sometimes wonder about. People say, "Well of course he would lose strength from not training, that makes sense" -- but he gained that strength without training, so why would he lose it from lack of training? So long as the magic doesn't wear off, I think it's quite possible that Gohan would never become weaker. I can imagine him turning into a skinny old man like Roshi, then, when he needs to, suddenly bringing all his ki out and bulking up again. Heck, in some anime you can even restore your youth doing stuff like this, at least temporarily. It's a fun thought.

As for why he can go SSJ in GT, well...I'm not saying 'it's GT so ignore it', but I usually leave GT out when trying to figure out stuff from the manga, since it doesn't have any bearing on how Mr Toriyama was thinking things would work. Quite honestly, I think Toei just didn't understand that Gohan lost the ability to go SSJ.