Do you think this "DBE" movie garnered any new fan

[ShinRogafuken]

Well when someone is talking about the manga, nobody can throw filler facts into it. But if someone is talking about the anime, nobody can debunk it by saying, "Yeah well that's not in the manga." At least that's how I see it.

For me there's only one canon but different continuites, and what you'd be refering to is the different continuities.

Canon/Continuity 1: Canon would be the Dragonball manga and nothing but the DB manga. It would therefore also be one continuity of DB.

Continuity 2: Every manga that takes part in the same world as Dragonball (Dr Slump, NMZ, Wonder Isand, etc).

Continuity 3: The anime and anime specials.

Continuity 4: The continuity in which GT and its special is a continuation to the anime.

Continuity 5: The movies that fit within the manga and anime's continuities.

Continuity 6: The movies that fit withing the anime's continuity, but because they are not manga, they aren't part of the manga's continuity.

Continuity 7: Movies that don't fit with the manga or anime. (anime movies, OVA, live action). Each movie (barring sequels) is essentially its own continuity.

Continuity 8: Guide books (Daizenshuu, Forever, etc)'s supplementals.


By definition, canon must be continuity #1, but in my opinion, it's up to everybody to decide for themselves what they consider to be a "true" continuity. Personally, I see there being two: a "true manga continuity" and a "true anime continuity." For me, the manga consists of the Bardock special, the manga based on the new special, and continuities 2 and 8. Meanwhile the anime consists of continuites 4, 5, and 8.

That's a pretty good idea you got there, congrats.

But in the end, does it really matter? Nah...

[Dayspring]

But in the end, does it really matter? Nah...

Nope, not in the least. That's why there are so many arguments all the time over what is and isn't "really Dragonball."

[Saiyan-Professor]

I been in many since I joined Daizex and I think the personal canon is the best route to go, there was a podcast episode where Mike and the others demonstrated how Dragonball is so convoluted that all things come into question even the manga in canon discussions. I personally think Toriyama purposely did it that way.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

...so how exactly does "what is canon?" relate to whether or not someone could POSSIBLY like the movie enough to then check out the original series and find out they enjoy it?

[ShinRogafuken]

...so how exactly does "what is canon?" relate to whether or not someone could POSSIBLY like the movie enough to then check out the original series and find out they enjoy it?

Oops...looks like we've gotten a bit off topic.

[laserkid]

I have been watching the dub with subtitles for months now. Most of it is pretty accurate. Much more than its given credit for.

So no dickhead its not made up. Go fuck yourself for calling me a liar.

I said you were wrong not a liar. If you're going to react this way just for someone saying they disagree with you you aren't going to get very far with winning people over to your argument. I too have watched much of the dub, as well as the sub, and while the general plot is indeed covered, many important details are left out of the dub.

Oh BTW asshole, that comic would still be much more faithfull than a comic that was completely redrawn with a different story.

So its more faithful to change the dialogue completely, say in DB's case have goku and Vegeta wanting to have sex with eachother then to do a live action adaptation of DB. Don't get me wrong, not a fan of DBE here, but DBE would be way closer then something like what I described. Also, calm down dude. I didn't insult you personally, I just asked you to stop insulting our intelligences. So I am now going to ask you to chill out man. There was no call to flip out on me or anyone else for disagreeing with you. This is a messageboard, on the internet. People have differing opinions. That does not give you the right to run around cussing at people.

[Kid Trunks]

Other than re-using the footage, what else do we get?

Characters. Dub Yamucha is incredibly similar to movie Yamucha. Surfer dude with stupid lines. "Cat loves food" and the Bulma's foot massage thing didn't show up, and as such, DB:E Yamucha wins. DB:E Roshi gets points for actually getting "Muten" in there, while also actually having a serious moment or two without an insanely goofy and overdone old man voice behind it. DB:E Goku is even with dub Goku. Dub Goku is a cheesy super hero type. Dub Goku fights for Truth, Justice, and Love, and to Save the Earth. DB:E Goku is on the opposite side of the Not Goku spectrum, but just as far away.

The core story? Like Goku's father being a brilliant scientist? Goku fighting the Ginyu Tokusentai and Freeza out of a sense of super-heroic justice? Gero being the leader of Red Ribbon Army? Or are you talking the REALLY broad story? For example, Goku must defeat Piccolo, who was sealed in a jar by the Mafuba, before the demon collects the Dragon Balls and takes over the world?

DB:E never gave us "Rock the Dragon", nor did it give us a heavy synth rock soundtrack that constantly blares in the background because Americans are too stupid to comprehend moments of silence. The tone of the movie, however misguided a VAST majority of it was, kept in the spirit of a martial arts action flick and NOT whatever the hell it was Funi decided Dragon Ball was in order to market it here.

DB:E is terrible, but it retains the spirit of Dragon Ball in a far greater and more effective capacity than the dub ever has.

Some of the arguments against the dub are really poor here.

I mean, saying that movie Yamcha didn't say "Cat loves food" is a good enough reason to suggest he's a more faithful representation is just wrong. DBE is only about an 1hr and 15mins long and they still managed to change his character entirely and say non-Yamcha stuff. He's a way more over-the-top "surfer dude", and has a completely different look. And he's not even a fighter...or shy of girls.

The "superhero" dub Goku thing, I'll give you that. Although its not nearly as prevalent in the series as your making it out to be. And dub Goku is obviously much more in-character than DBE Goku. He's not a school kid, he doesn't "want to be normal", he doesn't lust after Chi-Chi. And after 1hr and 15mins the only similarity between DBE Goku and original Goku I could see was when he was eating the chicken.

And DBE didn't give us "Rock the Dragon"? What's your point? They gave us "Rule", and I didn't find it gave me the feel of Dragonball. Saying "They didn't give us this from the dub, or that from the dub" isn't good enough. They gave us plenty of non-dub things in the movie that were equally as ridiculous as things in the dub.

Just to clarify. I like the dub. I like the original. And I like DBE.

[Saiyan-Professor]

...Just to clarify. I like the dub. I like the original. And I like DBE.

Why hide the fact that you like DBE, we will protect you from the bad people.

[Zenkai Power]

lots of arguments over the dub being inaccurate... and while that's true to a point it does follow the general gist of what was said. I know you may not like the choices Funi chose for alternate ways to say things... but they try to match up the general gist of what was said to the mouth movements if they can... so sometimes they have to re-word things and they get re-worded in funny ways. And I suppose depending upon who is translating that, really dumb ways sometimes too. But you cannot deny it's mostly accurate with some things lost here and there. But I started as a dub fan and I mean, I would look online and realize the differences and it didn't really end up making much of a difference for me.

However it's pretty obvious here that comparing the dub's inaccuracies to DB:E is ridiculous. DB:E is barely even the same story. They took way too many liberties with the story. THEY completely changed the character of Goku. No, eating a turkey leg in one scene is not enough. He isn't the same character at all. They changed the way kamehameha attacks and such are represented and, imo, made them a little more boring. They changed the origin of the Dragon Balls, took out his best friend Krillin, made him go to high school, made Yamcha a complete idiot, have Goku having major difficulties with perfecting the Kamehameha which he should learn in his first try, have Gohan die by Piccolo instead of by Goku... reinterpreted Oozaru, etc. It's no contest. DB:E is barely the original story of Dragon Ball at all.

Therefore it is my opinion that a fan of DB:E would probably end up reading the manga or watching the anime and realizing it's way better. haha. I doubt if they can like the movie they'd be turned off by the anime/manga.

I've been a fan of DB for years but I could barely stand the movie. And I mean, it was just a bad movie. It wasn't just a bad DB movie. It was a pretty poor action flick to begin with and looked to me, like an episode of Smallville or something... not what it should look like. Not a DB feature film. *lowers head in shame and disappointment*

So I think it's kind of silly to think a 13 year old boy is going to go crazy over it just because it features explosions and the like. A bad movie is a bad movie and it doesn't retain enough of the Grade A quality of the anime/manga I think to really pull in the kids like the actual anime/manga did. I mean, I was pretty young when I saw the Mortal Kombat movie, about 12 or so in fact. I thought it sucked but had a cool techno song. That's about it. Because the movie did suck. DB:E kind of sucks.

[Victator Supreme]

I said you were wrong not a liar. If you're going to react this way just for someone saying they disagree with you you aren't going to get very far with winning people over to your argument. I too have watched much of the dub, as well as the sub, and while the general plot is indeed covered, many important details are left out of the dub.

Proof for me has already been provided. The sample dialogue used was mostly accurate. Badly executed in places but accurate. The fact it was during the lowest point of the dub (not counting Saban) strengthens my argument.

You need to define importent details. I'm portent details are things like

Dr.Gero being head of the Red Ribbon army is a very dumb continuity error. But is it importent? For the sake of the story what we needed to know was

Goku destroyed the Red Ribbon Army
Dr.Gero was a big wheel in the Red Ribbon Army
Dr.Gero desires revenge against Goku for destroying the Red Ribbon Army.

Its an extremely dumb continuity mistake. Especially in hindsight since they did end up dubbing Dragonball later. If you wre arguing Funimation added really stupid one liners to the Frieza/Androids saga episodes I would be in full agreement. But overall the scripts were pretty accurate and became more accurate as time went on. You notice nobody goes for the Buu saga, Dragonball or GT dubs.

So its more faithful to change the dialogue completely, say in DB's case have goku and Vegeta wanting to have sex with eachother then to do a live action adaptation of DB.

Thats not the argument at hand though. I will say this that pictures speak louder than words. If the animation is unaltered then I think that will overpower whatever the dialogue is.

There is no reason a live action Dragonball movie can't be faithful even if some changes are made. Take the Dragonball 10th anniversary movie. The story was remixed significantly but is instantly recogniseable as Dragonball. You could do something simular with the Piccolo saga.

I want to apologise now. I had other things going on and lashed out unfairly. I was wrong for doing that.

[laserkid]

Okay, see now we're at something.

Inaccuracies aren't just about one one liners.

You mentioned Yamcha. Through the course of FUNimations one liner inaccuracies, as well as through their belief in consistancy (which is usually a good thing) thus KEEPING them one liners Yamcha is potrayed as a "surfer dude" who doesn't treat anything seriously. In the original version of the show Yamcha was a shy character who only really got out of being shy through Bulma. He was a very attentive character who seemed to know quite a bit about the martial arts world (in knowing of Grandpa Gohans style, as well as the Nyoibo). In the dub very few of his recognizing other martial artists came through, nor his serious attitude, because of the way in which he was potrayed.

Goku in the original was a carefree kid who had a lot of shit happen to him, but grew to defend those he cared about. He also had a strong selfish side showing little care for things that got destroyed because he wanted to fight. He was not a big speech artist, chosing to let his fists do the fighting. He abhorred execissive and non necessary violence however. In the dub he is constantly going on about truth justice and the american way (okay maybe not that last part). He talks way too much, and when he talks he has this self righteous tone and word choices that he simply does NOT have in the original. It's as if they dub writers looked at Great Saiyaman and decided Goku should talk like that too.

Dr. Gero as you pointed out is made out to be the head of the Red Ribbon army. This you say isn't an important detail in his character but I beg to differ. Dr. Gero seeking revenge on Goku shows extreme pettyness. He wouldn't have ruled the world even if the Red Ribbon had been victorious. He's suimply mad he lost his job. This is all lost in the dub making him out to be the head of the RRA. Because if he had been the head he would have had some level of justification for vengeance thus making the character far less ridiculous then he's supposed to be.

Kami-Sama is made out to be THE GUARDIAN OF EARTH OOOO! He's supposed to be God, before you complain little difference let me point something out. Yajirobe argues against there possibly being a God. This makes sense, thiesm vs antithiesm is a constant cultural argument. In the dub it makes little sense since he's arguing there can't be a guardian of earth. It just makes him come off looking stupid instead of skeptical. Moreover if they couldn't just call him a god, then they would have done better to call him an observer, since Kami doesn't do a whole lot of guardian stuff. He sits, watches and moves spirits on to the afterlife.

Have I made my point clear enough yet? All the one liners may not be a whole lot of a script change but they change the essences of the characters whom they make say them over time. Its an inaccuracy of the highest order, changing who the characters are.

And what IS dragonball without the characters? A stupid series of excuses for having fights.

EDIT: One last thing, you mention no one talks about the Buu era dub. I can't speak for everyone but I've never SEEN the Buu era dub. After watching through the Cell Saga dub as it first aired on Cartoon Network, and being ridiculously disapointed with Gohan talking through his SSJ2 transformation I swore off watching the dub again.

[B]

Everyone gives up stuff before they get better; kinda like Pokemon and Johto.

[KKZ]

He talks way too much...

What?? I'm pretty sure dub Goku doesn't talk any more or less than Japanese Goku, unless I'm completely missing something. FUNi didn't edit mouth flaps to last longer or anything. That isn't their job.

One last thing, you mention no one talks about the Buu era dub. I can't speak for everyone but I've never SEEN the Buu era dub. After watching through the Cell Saga dub as it first aired on Cartoon Network, and being ridiculously disapointed with Gohan talking through his SSJ2 transformation I swore off watching the dub again.

You're missing out on the best dub saga.

[laserkid]

1) FUNimation adds in dialogue when none is being spoken originally, when they are not focusing on the characters, or at the characters back. In addition they change the manner in which Goku speaks which is the point I was trying to convey.

2) Lets pretend the Buu dub is better, I watched 3/4ths of the show dubbed, including the re dub of the first two seasons. I gave the dub more then a fair chance.

3) I don't even overly like the Buu saga to begin with. It opens up well, but well before its over it gets way too slowly paced.

[KKZ]

1) FUNimation adds in dialogue when none is being spoken originally, when they are not focusing on the characters, or at the characters back.

I know that, but I think the only time Goku ever says any extra dialogue during one of these moments is during the Freeza Saga, which is a clusterfuck in general anyway. I could be wrong though.

And you don't like the Season 1 & 2 redubs? Damn, I think they're incredible even if the scripts are mostly re-used.

[Kendamu]

I don't even overly like the Buu saga to begin with. It opens up well, but well before its over it gets way too slowly paced.

Well, 83 episodes to cover 87 chapters of material (from the Budokai until the death of Boo) is pretty horrible pacing.

[Victator Supreme]

I almost mentioned that Yamcha was the character most butchered in the DBZ dub. I think he was faithfully portrayed in Dragonball. But in DBZ the one liners piled up to make him more of a coward and dummy.

Nothing I read in the manga implied to me Gero was not a player in the Red Ribbon Army. The Kami thing is stupid and is an importent detail. But it falls in the margin of error I set up. The only time I think Goku's speechifying was out of character was post Super saiyan transformation against Frieeza. I can't really think of any other case. The problem with that speech was it just wasnt Goku. But Goku does fight to protect people. But he also gets joy out of testing his limits. Its one of the things that makes him such a unique character.

[Kingdom Heartless]

Actually, that's true... Yamucha was a lot more faithful in the Dragon Ball dub, if I remember correctly.

[laserkid]

I don't even overly like the Buu saga to begin with. It opens up well, but well before its over it gets way too slowly paced.

Well, 83 episodes to cover 87 chapters of material (from the Budokai until the death of Boo) is pretty horrible pacing.

I wasn't talking manga to filler ratio, I was talking about the story pacing in general. I fault Toriyama for this more then anything. Especially in the "kid buu" stuff, god I felt like I was slogging through watching that.

[Kendamu]

I don't even overly like the Buu saga to begin with. It opens up well, but well before its over it gets way too slowly paced.

Well, 83 episodes to cover 87 chapters of material (from the Budokai until the death of Boo) is pretty horrible pacing.

I wasn't talking manga to filler ratio, I was talking about the story pacing in general. I fault Toriyama for this more then anything. Especially in the "kid buu" stuff, god I felt like I was slogging through watching that.

Did you ever read that part of the series or did you only watch it? What I'm getting at is that they're taking a tiny bit of material and really stretching it thin or adding lots of filler. That's part of why it feels so slow when watching it.