SSJ is obtained when a Saiyan exceeds his potential and undergoes an intense feeling of rage. SSJ2 is obtained when a Saiyan exceeds his maximum muscle strength. SSJ3 is obtained from releasing all one's energy.
So then where do USSJ and USSJ2 come from? My theory is that USSJ is simply pumping ki into your muscle strength, but this doesn't quite explain where USSJ2 comes from. One could argue it's just more energy, but I don't think it is. My own personal thought is that, if a Saiyan hasn't reached their maximum muslce strength yet, the energy being pumped into them makes them swell up (as seen in USSJ) instead of transforming into SSJ2. Now I'm not saying USSJ isn't its own transformation. It is, it's just not the same as SSJ2. Think of it as "SSJ 1.5"; it's what happens when a Saiyan goes SSJ2 when their body isn't ready to make that particular transformation.
Now comes the question as to why people don't automatically use SSJ3 when they become SSJs. It should be simple enough: just call upon all your energy reserves while in SSJ. For me, the answer comes from being a transformation available only to elite Super Saiyans. And by elite, I mean freaking powerful SSJs. As in, only Goku and Gotenks. Gotenks getting his insane power from fusion, and Goku from being the strongest SSJ2.
It's from this that I think USSJ2 is actually a false form of SSJ3. USSJ being a powerful, alternate version of regular SSJ results in having the necessary strength to create the USSJ equivalent of SSJ3, which is USSJ2. It isn't SSJ3 itself, it's what happens when you release all your energy in USSJ form.
Thoughts?
What are your thoughts on how the SSJ levels work?
What are your thoughts on how the SSJ levels work?
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As I said in another topic:
Super Saiyan - This is the form of legend, what that Saiyan turned into a thousand years before Dragonball.
"Ultra" Super Saiyan - Buffing out the SSJ form. Is not a separate transformation, just an enhancement of the basic form.
"Ultra 2" Super Saiyan - Buffing out the SSJ form too far. Again, is not a seperate form; there is an infinite number of "Ultra" SSJ 'forms' based on how hard you buff out your muscles.
For example, let's say a regular Super Saiyan is at 100%. Anything from 100% to 150% is an Ultra Super Saiyan. Anything above 150% is an Ultra 2 Super Saiyan.
Super Saiyan 2 - Perfected Super Saiyan. More speed, power, strength, and endurance with no drawbacks. Again, is not a new transformation, just a perfection of Super Saiyan.
Super Saiyan 3 - What happens when you try to force even more power into an already perfected Super Saiyan. Inherently flawed, just like the 'Ultra' forms.
Golden Oozaru - Going Super Saiyan while Oozaru. The two forms are not related otherwise - a tail has no influence on the Super Saiyan transformation, it only allows the Oozaru transformation to be used at the same time.
"Super Saiyan 4" - Compressing the Golden Oozaru into a humanoid form.
The video games have drawn the line between the SSJ stages harder than it really is, since...well..."We Saiyans can't be reduced to numbers".
Super Saiyan - This is the form of legend, what that Saiyan turned into a thousand years before Dragonball.
"Ultra" Super Saiyan - Buffing out the SSJ form. Is not a separate transformation, just an enhancement of the basic form.
"Ultra 2" Super Saiyan - Buffing out the SSJ form too far. Again, is not a seperate form; there is an infinite number of "Ultra" SSJ 'forms' based on how hard you buff out your muscles.
For example, let's say a regular Super Saiyan is at 100%. Anything from 100% to 150% is an Ultra Super Saiyan. Anything above 150% is an Ultra 2 Super Saiyan.
Super Saiyan 2 - Perfected Super Saiyan. More speed, power, strength, and endurance with no drawbacks. Again, is not a new transformation, just a perfection of Super Saiyan.
Super Saiyan 3 - What happens when you try to force even more power into an already perfected Super Saiyan. Inherently flawed, just like the 'Ultra' forms.
Golden Oozaru - Going Super Saiyan while Oozaru. The two forms are not related otherwise - a tail has no influence on the Super Saiyan transformation, it only allows the Oozaru transformation to be used at the same time.
"Super Saiyan 4" - Compressing the Golden Oozaru into a humanoid form.
The video games have drawn the line between the SSJ stages harder than it really is, since...well..."We Saiyans can't be reduced to numbers".
I'll talk about Oozaru first, since with the way I'm seeing it as of late, they're somewhat related. I think that when Vegeta explained Oozaru to us in the Saiyan saga, we only got half of the full story. What I think is that the cells in a Saiyan's body themselves are what react to Bruitz Waves, and cause the transformation. However, the amount of waves that would be simply absorbed through the skin from a full moon or planet aren't nearly enough to do so.
However, when a Saiyan receives the Bruitz Waves through his eyes, there's a direct nerve line that carries them to the gland in the tail. What the gland actually does is amplify and redistribute the Bruitz Waves back through the body, and that's enough to transform with.
I came up with the idea of "it's the cells getting enough Bruitz Waves that matters," because it helps with GT. Bulma's machine essentially served as an artificial tail. It did the job of gathering the Bruitz Waves, amplifying them, and then barraging Vegeta's entire body with it to cause him to transform.
Now, Xyex came up with this theory that I've taken a liking to recently. He can probably give you more details, but in a nutshell he says that Super Saiyan, and the abnormally large zenkais that lead up to it, are part of an auto-evolution mechanism, designed to give the Saiyan a replacement for Oozaru when he uses his tail. This may seem "too easy" at first, but without a tail, few typical Saiyans that didn't have things like Regen Tanks or Senzu Beans at their disposal would ever live long enough without Oozaru to reap such rewards. Goku and Vegeta were lucky exceptions. For where the SSj power comes from and how it's built up to, I kinda like that idea.
Now Super Saiyan itself is a large reservoir of "hidden potential" power, that's slowly and steadily built up and brought closer and closer to the surface through zenkais. Goku's Kaio-Ken tapped into this reserve of power, and as he got bigger and bigger zenkais, and his hidden power grew, he was able to use higher-level Kaio-Kens (up to 20x, eventually) to use it.
But this, and similar methods, were unnatural, overly-forceful way of tapping into the power, and it was only able to do so in short bursts and usually damaged the user. When the actual transformation happens, triggered by strong emotions, the body is newly adjusted to properly channel the new and large amounts of raw ki. This still takes work to properly control and perfect.
That is also to say, then, that the large zenkai are a means to an end, and that end is Super Saiyan. Once Super Saiyan has achieved, the zenkai system is all like, "my work here is done," and the increases it gives return to their normal rate of maybe a few thousand PL points at a time.
Goten and Trunks seem to be born with the capability to transform. But other children of Super Saiyans don't seem to have that same privilege. The "inherited Super Saiyan" thing is an entirely different and weird subject altogether, which I've never really delved deeply into. I'd be glad to read anything you guys may say on the subject, though.
From here on, the subsequent golden-haired forms aren't really separate "forms" at all. They're all still just "Super Saiyan," just improved or modified in some way. I seem them as just different stages of the same whole. Like Super Saiyan is laying the foundation, and the further stages are higher floors, but they're all part of the same building.
The "Ultra" Super Saiyan forms are the results of trying to force more power into Super Saiyan BEFORE you've properly trained it to do so. The body is tapping into power it's really not prepared for yet, and some severe drawbacks can result. It's certainly possible to strike a good balance between gain and loss, like Vegeta did. But overdo it with the power, and you'll do more harm than good, like Trunks did.
"Mastered" Super Saiyan is the opposite that... when you've perfected Super Saiyan to the point where it comes natural to you, and thus can now, as the "Full Power" label suggest, properly use the form to its fullest. It comes easy, there's no extra stress or self-blinding rage anymore to interfere, and the transformation most likely actually grants even MORE power than when Super Saiyan was first achieved. Also, training in this form may also yield far greater results than if you were training in your base.
For SSj2 and SSj3, I agree with Rocketman:
Now onto the weird stuff. Golden Oozaru is what happens when you're a Super Saiyan, but have since regained the ability to go Oozaru in some way. Oozaru normally grants "only" a 10x increase, but suddenly, it's finding itself with a whole helluva lot more power to work with. All that Super Saiyan power gets put into Oozaru, and the result is a big, golden, hairy, rampaging embodied force of wanton destruction.
The badassery that we call Super Saiyan 4 is again, what Rocketman said. Golden Oozaru, compressed. When the Saiyan gains control over that massive power, he transforms into the perfect amalgamation of both sides of Super Saiyan power. Half-man, half-ape. Drawing amazing amounts of power from both sources at once. It's like Super Saiyan and Oozaru are the twin peaks of Mt. Kilimanjaro, and SSj4 is a bridge connecting them. It's the same power as Golden Oozaru. Just far more focused and practical to work with.
Labeling it "Super Saiyan FOUR," though, might be a bit misleading. The power of Golden Oozaru and Super Saiyan 4, as far as I'm concerned, isn't some set boost. It's largely dependent on how much Super Saiyan power it has access to. In GT, Vegeta was an extremely powerful SSj2, and Goku was that as well AND had Super Saiyan 3. Their Golden Oozaru forms ended up fantastically powerful as a result.
But imagine this for a moment. Suppose in DBZ, instead of working to "transcend Super Saiyan" after getting their asses beat by the Androids, Goku and Vegeta decide to try getting their tails back and gain power that way. They somehow manage, and both achieve Golden Oozaru and then Super Saiyan 4. Unlike in GT, this time SSj4 is only drawing from an unperfected SSj1. It'd be a big boost and certainly better than said SSj1, but not on the scale as in GT. It might allow them to deal with Perfect Cell, at most.
And there's my two ce-... ten dollars.
However, when a Saiyan receives the Bruitz Waves through his eyes, there's a direct nerve line that carries them to the gland in the tail. What the gland actually does is amplify and redistribute the Bruitz Waves back through the body, and that's enough to transform with.
I came up with the idea of "it's the cells getting enough Bruitz Waves that matters," because it helps with GT. Bulma's machine essentially served as an artificial tail. It did the job of gathering the Bruitz Waves, amplifying them, and then barraging Vegeta's entire body with it to cause him to transform.
Now, Xyex came up with this theory that I've taken a liking to recently. He can probably give you more details, but in a nutshell he says that Super Saiyan, and the abnormally large zenkais that lead up to it, are part of an auto-evolution mechanism, designed to give the Saiyan a replacement for Oozaru when he uses his tail. This may seem "too easy" at first, but without a tail, few typical Saiyans that didn't have things like Regen Tanks or Senzu Beans at their disposal would ever live long enough without Oozaru to reap such rewards. Goku and Vegeta were lucky exceptions. For where the SSj power comes from and how it's built up to, I kinda like that idea.
Now Super Saiyan itself is a large reservoir of "hidden potential" power, that's slowly and steadily built up and brought closer and closer to the surface through zenkais. Goku's Kaio-Ken tapped into this reserve of power, and as he got bigger and bigger zenkais, and his hidden power grew, he was able to use higher-level Kaio-Kens (up to 20x, eventually) to use it.
But this, and similar methods, were unnatural, overly-forceful way of tapping into the power, and it was only able to do so in short bursts and usually damaged the user. When the actual transformation happens, triggered by strong emotions, the body is newly adjusted to properly channel the new and large amounts of raw ki. This still takes work to properly control and perfect.
That is also to say, then, that the large zenkai are a means to an end, and that end is Super Saiyan. Once Super Saiyan has achieved, the zenkai system is all like, "my work here is done," and the increases it gives return to their normal rate of maybe a few thousand PL points at a time.
Goten and Trunks seem to be born with the capability to transform. But other children of Super Saiyans don't seem to have that same privilege. The "inherited Super Saiyan" thing is an entirely different and weird subject altogether, which I've never really delved deeply into. I'd be glad to read anything you guys may say on the subject, though.
From here on, the subsequent golden-haired forms aren't really separate "forms" at all. They're all still just "Super Saiyan," just improved or modified in some way. I seem them as just different stages of the same whole. Like Super Saiyan is laying the foundation, and the further stages are higher floors, but they're all part of the same building.
The "Ultra" Super Saiyan forms are the results of trying to force more power into Super Saiyan BEFORE you've properly trained it to do so. The body is tapping into power it's really not prepared for yet, and some severe drawbacks can result. It's certainly possible to strike a good balance between gain and loss, like Vegeta did. But overdo it with the power, and you'll do more harm than good, like Trunks did.
"Mastered" Super Saiyan is the opposite that... when you've perfected Super Saiyan to the point where it comes natural to you, and thus can now, as the "Full Power" label suggest, properly use the form to its fullest. It comes easy, there's no extra stress or self-blinding rage anymore to interfere, and the transformation most likely actually grants even MORE power than when Super Saiyan was first achieved. Also, training in this form may also yield far greater results than if you were training in your base.
For SSj2 and SSj3, I agree with Rocketman:
Super Saiyan 2 is kind of weird, though. It's like it is a new stage of Super Saiyan, but at the same time, it's not...Rocketman wrote:Super Saiyan 2 - Perfected Super Saiyan. More speed, power, strength, and endurance with no drawbacks. Again, is not a new transformation, just a perfection of Super Saiyan.
Super Saiyan 3 - What happens when you try to force even more power into an already perfected Super Saiyan. Inherently flawed, just like the 'Ultra' forms. (But amazingly badass ~ Kaboom)
Now onto the weird stuff. Golden Oozaru is what happens when you're a Super Saiyan, but have since regained the ability to go Oozaru in some way. Oozaru normally grants "only" a 10x increase, but suddenly, it's finding itself with a whole helluva lot more power to work with. All that Super Saiyan power gets put into Oozaru, and the result is a big, golden, hairy, rampaging embodied force of wanton destruction.
The badassery that we call Super Saiyan 4 is again, what Rocketman said. Golden Oozaru, compressed. When the Saiyan gains control over that massive power, he transforms into the perfect amalgamation of both sides of Super Saiyan power. Half-man, half-ape. Drawing amazing amounts of power from both sources at once. It's like Super Saiyan and Oozaru are the twin peaks of Mt. Kilimanjaro, and SSj4 is a bridge connecting them. It's the same power as Golden Oozaru. Just far more focused and practical to work with.
Labeling it "Super Saiyan FOUR," though, might be a bit misleading. The power of Golden Oozaru and Super Saiyan 4, as far as I'm concerned, isn't some set boost. It's largely dependent on how much Super Saiyan power it has access to. In GT, Vegeta was an extremely powerful SSj2, and Goku was that as well AND had Super Saiyan 3. Their Golden Oozaru forms ended up fantastically powerful as a result.
But imagine this for a moment. Suppose in DBZ, instead of working to "transcend Super Saiyan" after getting their asses beat by the Androids, Goku and Vegeta decide to try getting their tails back and gain power that way. They somehow manage, and both achieve Golden Oozaru and then Super Saiyan 4. Unlike in GT, this time SSj4 is only drawing from an unperfected SSj1. It'd be a big boost and certainly better than said SSj1, but not on the scale as in GT. It might allow them to deal with Perfect Cell, at most.
And there's my two ce-... ten dollars.
Last edited by Kaboom on Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Senzu_Bean
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If it was Oozaru PLUS Super Saiyan, wouldn't that make it a 60x increase? Base x (50 + 10)Senzu_Bean wrote:Golden Oozaru should at least give a 500x increase since it is plus Oozaru (x10) and plus SSJ (x50) over Base.
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SSJ: Speed, Stamina, and Power all increase by 50x
USSJ: Stamina and Power increase another 50x, but Speed is decreased by 1/3.
SSJ2: All three attributes increase another 50x from their SSJ stats.
SSJ3: Take a wild guess. This form is unstable as all fuck, of course. Goku's ability to stay in the living world is drastically shortened because of it; he couldn't get a good grasp of it when he was alive after Old Kaio gave him his lifeforce; Gotenks was a Fusion, and if you want to go by GT, Goku still didn't have the hang of it. Of course, he was also a child at the time, and Instantaneous Movement was a problem for him.
SSJ4: How is this even possible? Toei, I don't even
USSJ: Stamina and Power increase another 50x, but Speed is decreased by 1/3.
SSJ2: All three attributes increase another 50x from their SSJ stats.
SSJ3: Take a wild guess. This form is unstable as all fuck, of course. Goku's ability to stay in the living world is drastically shortened because of it; he couldn't get a good grasp of it when he was alive after Old Kaio gave him his lifeforce; Gotenks was a Fusion, and if you want to go by GT, Goku still didn't have the hang of it. Of course, he was also a child at the time, and Instantaneous Movement was a problem for him.
SSJ4: How is this even possible? Toei, I don't even
Keen Observation of Dragon Ball Z Movie 4's Climax wrote:Slug shits to see the genki
My thoughts have recently turned to...
Super Saiyan: Triggered by rage and hatred.
Super Saiyan 2: Triggered by epiphany (an understanding and realization of who one is and what they must do).
Super Saiyan 3: Wisdom (an understand of one's self, one's environment, and one's place in the universe, as well as imagination).
Truthfully, I'm still working on SSj3, but I think SSj2 has a somewhat solid basis. Alas...
Super Saiyan: Triggered by rage and hatred.
Super Saiyan 2: Triggered by epiphany (an understanding and realization of who one is and what they must do).
Super Saiyan 3: Wisdom (an understand of one's self, one's environment, and one's place in the universe, as well as imagination).
Truthfully, I'm still working on SSj3, but I think SSj2 has a somewhat solid basis. Alas...
She/Her 
My thoughts:
SSJ: Pure rage trigger, huge power increase.
USSJ: Pumping your body's muscles to the max, stretching the SSJ transformation, limited speed due to forced muscle increase. An 'un-natural' Saiyan form.
SSJ2: The 'true' SSJ sucessor, fueled by Rage, retaining all speed.
SSJ3: Kind of forced, does not need an emotional trigger.
SSJ4: The 'true' SSJ, based off a Saiyan's Oozaru.
SSJ: Pure rage trigger, huge power increase.
USSJ: Pumping your body's muscles to the max, stretching the SSJ transformation, limited speed due to forced muscle increase. An 'un-natural' Saiyan form.
SSJ2: The 'true' SSJ sucessor, fueled by Rage, retaining all speed.
SSJ3: Kind of forced, does not need an emotional trigger.
SSJ4: The 'true' SSJ, based off a Saiyan's Oozaru.
Super Saiyan 1, is self-explanatory, going Super Saiyan. If you can make Super Saiyan feel normal then all the emotion you needed to feel in order to transform into Super Saiyan 1 in the first place could now be applied into becoming Super Saiyan 2. In feeling and energy strain, SS2 becomes the new SS1.
The only problem is that with SS1 and SS2, you can only become so powerful because there's no tail. I think Super Saiyan 3 is a way of harnessing all the power of the Oozaru form without actually having a tale and transforming into an ape. SS3 in a humanoid form would be as powerful as an SS2 in Oozaru form. Without the tail, Goku is missing the body part neccessary to maintain the SS3 form, so SS3 is difficult to attain and even harder to keep for very long. In the Afterlife, the limitations of his body are less of an issue, if they're even an issue at all, which might be why he can only maintain SS3 there.
Goten and Trunks might not have been born with tails at all so their bodies might not have anything "missing" so they might naturally have access to Oozaru strength even without a tail. As a result, Gotenks would've have the same difficultly with SS3 as Goku.
This could also explain why it was so much easier for them to become Super Saiyans, aside for the popular theory that they were concieved by Super Saiyan fathers while Gohan and Future Trunks weren't.
In GT, when Goku transforms into SS3, he again can't maintain the form. There's no evidence that it would've made a difference whether he was a child or not. Adult Goku might've lasted a little longer as a Super Saiyan 3 but that's it. Once Goku's tail was restored, it didn't mean he was stronger so much as it meant SS3 was now more manageable and actually maintainable.
From there, SS4 is a step beyond SS3-powered Golden Oozaru. SS4 would have to be beyond a Golden Oozaru with SS3 power because Old Kai saw the SS3 Oozaru as just a means to an end. And it would make sense that the ultimate transformation would be a step beyond a combination of anything else.
The only problem is that with SS1 and SS2, you can only become so powerful because there's no tail. I think Super Saiyan 3 is a way of harnessing all the power of the Oozaru form without actually having a tale and transforming into an ape. SS3 in a humanoid form would be as powerful as an SS2 in Oozaru form. Without the tail, Goku is missing the body part neccessary to maintain the SS3 form, so SS3 is difficult to attain and even harder to keep for very long. In the Afterlife, the limitations of his body are less of an issue, if they're even an issue at all, which might be why he can only maintain SS3 there.
Goten and Trunks might not have been born with tails at all so their bodies might not have anything "missing" so they might naturally have access to Oozaru strength even without a tail. As a result, Gotenks would've have the same difficultly with SS3 as Goku.
This could also explain why it was so much easier for them to become Super Saiyans, aside for the popular theory that they were concieved by Super Saiyan fathers while Gohan and Future Trunks weren't.
In GT, when Goku transforms into SS3, he again can't maintain the form. There's no evidence that it would've made a difference whether he was a child or not. Adult Goku might've lasted a little longer as a Super Saiyan 3 but that's it. Once Goku's tail was restored, it didn't mean he was stronger so much as it meant SS3 was now more manageable and actually maintainable.
From there, SS4 is a step beyond SS3-powered Golden Oozaru. SS4 would have to be beyond a Golden Oozaru with SS3 power because Old Kai saw the SS3 Oozaru as just a means to an end. And it would make sense that the ultimate transformation would be a step beyond a combination of anything else.
Last edited by rkpres17 on Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's not a "plus," it's an "and." Golden Oozaru is 50x the Oozaru form, which is 10x the base form. (1 x 10) x 50 = 500.SSj Kaboom wrote:If it was Oozaru PLUS Super Saiyan, wouldn't that make it a 60x increase? Base x (50 + 10)Senzu_Bean wrote:Golden Oozaru should at least give a 500x increase since it is plus Oozaru (x10) and plus SSJ (x50) over Base.
Captain Christopher Pike wrote:The away team will consist of myself, Cadet Kirk, Mr. Sulu, and Ensign Olsen.
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Basically, I agree with this. I don't see USSJ and USSJ2 as separate forms at all, we just label them so we know what we're talking about. USSJ 1 and 2 are just SSJ with ki pumped into the muscles. I don't think there's a technical limit to how far you can push this, but there are obviously major draw backs. I believe that the reason Vegeta didn't buff up as much as Trunks wasn't that he couldn't, but that, like Goku, he knew it was a bad idea. He found a balance, which we call USSJ1. Trunks stuck to that as well because he didn't want to 'surpass' his father.Rocketman wrote:As I said in another topic:
Super Saiyan - This is the form of legend, what that Saiyan turned into a thousand years before Dragonball.
"Ultra" Super Saiyan - Buffing out the SSJ form. Is not a separate transformation, just an enhancement of the basic form.
"Ultra 2" Super Saiyan - Buffing out the SSJ form too far. Again, is not a seperate form; there is an infinite number of "Ultra" SSJ 'forms' based on how hard you buff out your muscles.
For example, let's say a regular Super Saiyan is at 100%. Anything from 100% to 150% is an Ultra Super Saiyan. Anything above 150% is an Ultra 2 Super Saiyan.
Super Saiyan 2 - Perfected Super Saiyan. More speed, power, strength, and endurance with no drawbacks. Again, is not a new transformation, just a perfection of Super Saiyan.
Super Saiyan 3 - What happens when you try to force even more power into an already perfected Super Saiyan. Inherently flawed, just like the 'Ultra' forms.
Golden Oozaru - Going Super Saiyan while Oozaru. The two forms are not related otherwise - a tail has no influence on the Super Saiyan transformation, it only allows the Oozaru transformation to be used at the same time.
"Super Saiyan 4" - Compressing the Golden Oozaru into a humanoid form.
The video games have drawn the line between the SSJ stages harder than it really is, since...well..."We Saiyans can't be reduced to numbers".
SSJ2 I see as a separate form, but at the same time just another level of the whole Super Saiyajin thing. I'm not sure if I agree with Dayspring's thing about having to have your muscles trained to the extreme, since I got the impression that Goku had already reached that point by the time he went Super Saiyajin. I'm not sure, though.
SSJ3 I'm not really sure about. I guess all of the forms are about potential ki. New kinds of ki can be create depending on your emotional and mental state. Rage may create/bring out the ki that fuels a Super Saiyajin. We see that extreme rage when you're already a Super Saiyajin can let you reach SSJ2. SSJ3 is definitely calmer, though, so maybe it requires a completely different mental state to reach. Altogether, though, I think it's just a process of bringing out more ki to the point that your body has to transform to handle it (which is how I see all 3 of the SSJ transformations I think).
As for SSJ4, I guess it could go either way. If you're SSJ you're at a x50 boost. Either going Oozaru on top of that would simply add the Oozaru boost to what you have already (so (x10 of base) + base x 50), or, more likely IMO, the Oozaru form would multiply the SSJ form's strength the same way it does for the base strength. This would make it a x500 boost, which is bigger than SSJ3, which seems fitting.
Some people say that, in GT, Goku's tail switching between brown and gold during SSJ scenes was just a production error, but personally I think it makes sense. It was always brown when he was SSJ1, I think. It didn't turn gold until SSJ3. Maybe this is because Oozaru fur is different to Saiyajin hair. Whatever the case, I think you have to reach a certain level of power for the fur to turn gold. SSJ3 provides this. Golden Oozaru also provides this. That's why it's gold.
Math aside...
The "No tail enhances Zenkais" thing made me wonder... is the transformation to Oozaru something like a basic need of sorts? Or something related to it/the tail, anyway?
Almost like some trippy hormonal imbalance happens without a tail, thus explaining Goten and Trunks somehow kinda a little...
... I like Herms's SSJ3.
. (Not to be confused with SSJ3 Herms...).
SSJ2, when introduced, was basically SSJ for someone that's already SSJ. The Cell Arc was Gohan's Freeza, except without the Dairy Rangers.
The "No tail enhances Zenkais" thing made me wonder... is the transformation to Oozaru something like a basic need of sorts? Or something related to it/the tail, anyway?
Almost like some trippy hormonal imbalance happens without a tail, thus explaining Goten and Trunks somehow kinda a little...
... I like Herms's SSJ3.
. (Not to be confused with SSJ3 Herms...).SSJ2, when introduced, was basically SSJ for someone that's already SSJ. The Cell Arc was Gohan's Freeza, except without the Dairy Rangers.
Dr Gero, in Budokai 2 wrote:Go, my Saiba Rangers!
Akira Toriyama, in Son Goku Densetsu wrote:You really can’t go by rumors (laughs).
This does make some sort of sense.caejones wrote:The "No tail enhances Zenkais" thing made me wonder... is the transformation to Oozaru something like a basic need of sorts? Or something related to it/the tail, anyway?
Almost like some trippy hormonal imbalance happens without a tail, thus explaining Goten and Trunks somehow kinda a little...
This info was taken from the SEG. It's possible that SSJ2 is like going SSJ all over again, only in your SSJ form. In other words, "exceeding your maximum muscle strength" was just another translation of 'exceeding your potential," only meant for the SSJ form.Bussani wrote: SSJ2 I see as a separate form, but at the same time just another level of the whole Super Saiyajin thing. I'm not sure if I agree with Dayspring's thing about having to have your muscles trained to the extreme, since I got the impression that Goku had already reached that point by the time he went Super Saiyajin. I'm not sure, though.
So it's possible that:
1) SSJ = exceed your potential, undergo intense rage to trigger it.
2) SSJ2 = exceed your SSJ potential, undergo intense rage to trigger it.
3) SSJ3 = exceed your SSJ2 potential, summon all your energy to trigger it.
Again, fusion would be blamed for Gotenks skipping SSJ2; his SSJ stage would be greater than a normal SSJ2's potential, so all he'd have to do from there is gather all his energy.
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Not necessarily. He may not have thought to gather all his energy in one shot. Unless you feel it will result in a transformation, it would be pretty counterproductive to do such a thing. Plus I think the Majin boost shows us that he hadn't exceeded his SSJ2 potential.Saiyan-Professor wrote:I agree with you until you made this statement:If that was the case Vegeta should have went Super Saiyan 3 along time ago.Dayspring wrote:...SSJ3 = exceed your SSJ2 potential, summon all your energy to trigger it...
Although I see your point for GT.
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Yeah especially the scene where Vegeta faces off against Super #17 and goes full power before Kakarrot interferes.Dayspring wrote:Not necessarily. He may not have thought to gather all his energy in one shot. Unless you feel it will result in a transformation, it would be pretty counterproductive to do such a thing. Plus I think the Majin boost shows us that he hadn't exceeded his SSJ2 potential.Saiyan-Professor wrote:I agree with you until you made this statement:If that was the case Vegeta should have went Super Saiyan 3 along time ago.Dayspring wrote:...SSJ3 = exceed your SSJ2 potential, summon all your energy to trigger it...
Although I see your point for GT.
I would have to disagree with this and at least at the end of GT Vegeta was dead even with him finally.JulieYBM wrote:Truthfully, I don't think Vegeta deserves SSj3 until after he concedes to Son. I think its only after then that he can reach his full potential and actually surpass Son, if not become stuck in a deadlock for the rest of their lives...
The Saiyans are very much like the Klingons and Jem'Hadar.