What are your thoughts on how the SSJ levels work?

[Saiyan-Professor]

Me? I think I've only mentioned the Cell thing once, and it was in the context of "a lot of people have made dumb mistakes with villains on the show."

Not you personally I was most likely speaking in the sense of the general “you”.

[Bussani]

...

Herms had demonstrated many times from the Daizenshuu and the GT Perfect Files that Super Saiyan 1 is a 50 times multiplier. The S.E.G. even identifies how much of a multiplier the other full transformations are (SSJ 2 x100 and SSJ 3 is x400).

Come to think of it, the guide only says that SSJ2 is double SSJ1, and SSJ3 is x4 SSJ2. So theoretically, mister yummy's method could be right.

Look at Oozaru though. It always multiplied your strength by 10, no matter how strong you got. It seems consistent that SSJ would also be similar...

How so could you elaborate?

Certainly. The guide itself never said that SSJ2 was x100 and SSJ3 was x400 -- we came up with that based on the idea that the transformations are always constant multipliers. What the guide literally says is;

SSJ: x50 base strength
SSJ2: Double SSJ strength
SSJ3: 4 times SSJ2 strength.

Although it seems to use the words 'strength' and 'power' inconsistently if I remember right, but you get the idea. It never actually says that SSJ2 or SSJ3 are anything compared to the base strength, it only compares them to the strength of the previous form.

So theoretically, let's say that SSJ was originally x50 stronger than the base form. That means in terms of battle power, his power went up by 147,000,000 units. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that SSJ didn't literally multiply your power every time, and instead just added that number to your base strength. As your base form gets stronger, your SSJ form would get stronger as a result, even though it's the same figure being added to it.

Then SSJ2 comes along. SSJ2 is double whatever SSJ is. So let's say your base power was now 75,000,000. Add 147,000,000 to that and you have 222,000,000, quite a bit higher than SSJ Goku's battle power while fighting Freeza. Then you double that and you have SSJ2 (444,000,000). Times that by 4 and you have SSJ3.

I don't think it works this way, personally, since we've seen that Oozaru multiplies your strength by 10 no matter what, and kaioken multiplies strength in a simple manner as well. So why should SSJ be different? But I don't think there's anything that directly contradicts this theory, either. The way the guides are worded leaves some room for interpretation.

[mister yummy]

The main reason I started thinking this way, with an addition instead of a multiplier, is because you don't end up with such ridiculously HUGE numbers that way. It puts people like Freeza and #19 on closer footing. Even Cell's not all THAT much more powerful than Freeza if you look at things this way. It just...makes more sense, at least for me.

The reason Goku stops using Kaioken is because the strain of increasing your power that much, at thhose levels, would totally destroy his body. Besides, he DOES use it once more...while dead, and while a Super Saiya-jin anyways. I wonder how he felt afterwards. Plus, I always thought the 10x Kamehameha was somehow a cross between Kamehameha and Kaioken...

As far as Kaio-ken goes...what's the official difference between Kaioken and Kaioken x2? After realising that they should do the same thing, I fanwanked to get Kaioken to multiply by 1½ and Kaioken x2 to double your strength. I think doing it beyond 20 times would cause the risk to your body to grow geometrically. I also think that the stronger you get, the tougher it is on you...though Goku on Namek seems to contridict this. Perhaps he was mastering the technique as he got stronger...perhaps if he hadn't gotten so much stronger, he could have used Kaioken x30 or 50. Who knows?

[Bussani]

The main reason I started thinking this way, with an addition instead of a multiplier, is because you don't end up with such ridiculously HUGE numbers that way. It puts people like Freeza and #19 on closer footing. Even Cell's not all THAT much more powerful than Freeza if you look at things this way. It just...makes more sense, at least for me.

That's fair enough. Like I said, I can't think of a technical reason that it doesn't work this way, I just don't think that it does, personally. But I am interested to hear what your take on this is;

If SSJ simply adds a particular amount, then what do the other transformations do? Would they just add another amount on top? So your strength as an SSJ2 would be base + SSJ boost + SSJ2 boost, with SSJ and SSJ2 boosts remaining constant but base changing?

The reason Goku stops using Kaioken is because the strain of increasing your power that much, at thhose levels, would totally destroy his body. Besides, he DOES use it once more...while dead, and while a Super Saiya-jin anyways. I wonder how he felt afterwards. Plus, I always thought the 10x Kamehameha was somehow a cross between Kamehameha and Kaioken...

As far as Kaio-ken goes...what's the official difference between Kaioken and Kaioken x2? After realising that they should do the same thing, I fanwanked to get Kaioken to multiply by 1½ and Kaioken x2 to double your strength. I think doing it beyond 20 times would cause the risk to your body to grow geometrically. I also think that the stronger you get, the tougher it is on you...though Goku on Namek seems to contridict this. Perhaps he was mastering the technique as he got stronger...perhaps if he hadn't gotten so much stronger, he could have used Kaioken x30 or 50. Who knows?

I know what you mean with kaioken. You would think that the stronger you get, the bigger the increase is and the harder it would be to control. But after Goku's training in high gravity he seems to indicate that he thinks his body could handle a higher kaioken now. Maybe kaioken stopped being useful because their bodies reached their physical limits (not counting transformations, of course) while their power kept increasing, so the strain would just be too much.

As for kaioken and kaioken x2, the manga definitely seems to indicate that there is a difference. Goku uses the standard kaioken against Nappa and then tries it against Vegeta, but it isn't enough, and in the next chapter he moves up to x2. I have always assumed that normal kaioken is x1.5, and I've seen some battle power lists use this, but I'd need someone with Daizenshuu 7 to confirm if it mentions anything of the sort.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Daizenshuu #7 states concerning Kaio-Ken:

Special Characteristics: A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one’s body, multiplying all that person’s abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one’s abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-Ken might destroy one’s own body. When the user’s battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-Ken above those limits. The Kaio-Ken’s designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it. (Daizenshuu 2, p.212/ Daizenshuu 4, p.113)

[Bussani]

Daizenshuu #7 states concerning Kaio-Ken:

Special Characteristics: A technique that instantly amplifies the ki inside one’s body, multiplying all that person’s abilities, including power, speed, defense, etc. Since it makes one capable of utilizing battle power many times their own ability, it is extraordinarily effective during battles with formidable opponents. However, because it is impossible to multiply excessively far beyond one’s abilities, experimenting with an unreasonably high Kaio-Ken might destroy one’s own body. When the user’s battle power is 8,000, their limit is x2, and when they are at 3 million the limit is x10. However, since real battles are harsh, Goku often had to use Kaio-Ken above those limits. The Kaio-Ken’s designer is the North Kaio, but Goku was the first person to be able to master it. (Daizenshuu 2, p.212/ Daizenshuu 4, p.113)

So yeah, that pretty much says that the limit goes up as you get stronger. But I wonder if that changes when you have already gone beyond the limits of your body? If it kept going up, Goku should be able to do huge kaiokens later on in the series. Not that he needs to, with the Super Saiyajin transformations. In the end, there's no way of knowing since they stop using the technique.

[Herms]

It seems regular Kaio-ken=Kaio-ken x2, despite what the Vegeta fight seems to show. During the Vegeta fight, the narrator says that Kaio-ken (not Kaio-ken x2) doubles Goku's battle power. Then during the Freeza fight, Kaio says that Kaio-ken x10 makes Goku ten times stronger. This doesn't leave any room for a difference between Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2, even though Goku seems to regard them as different things during the Vegeta fight. It's quite possible that it's another one of Toriyama's inconsistencies.

[Bussani]

It seems regular Kaio-ken=Kaio-ken x2, despite what the Vegeta fight seems to show. During the Vegeta fight, the narrator says that Kaio-ken (not Kaio-ken x2) doubles Goku's battle power. Then during the Freeza fight, Kaio says that Kaio-ken x10 makes Goku ten times stronger. This doesn't leave any room for a difference between Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2, even though Goku seems to regard them as different things during the Vegeta fight. It's quite possible that it's another one of Toriyama's inconsistencies.

Ahh, alrighty then. Thanks for that clarification. Now that I look at my copy of the manga, the narration does say, "not even doubling his strength was another against Vegeta." But the end of the chapter right before it, right after Goku had tried that Kaioken, said, "Next: Kaioken x2!" like it was different. And then Goku uses Kaioken x2 in the fight, despite what the narration said.

So yeah, I think you're right. It's probably a bit of an inconsistency on Mr Toriyama's part.

[Herms]

Now that I look at my copy of the manga, the narration does say, "not even doubling his strength was another against Vegeta."

Just for the record, the original is more explicit, saying "Vegeta's power is such that Goku couldn't gain the upper hand even by using the Kaio-ken, which doubles his battle power".

[Bussani]

Now that I look at my copy of the manga, the narration does say, "not even doubling his strength was another against Vegeta."

Just for the record, the original is more explicit, saying "Vegeta's power is such that Goku couldn't gain the upper hand even by using the Kaio-ken, which doubles his battle power".

Simple question; does the Japanese version still say something like, "Next: Kaioken x2!" at the bottom of the end of the previous chapter?

[Herms]

Simple question; does the Japanese version still say something like, "Next: Kaioken x2!" at the bottom of the end of the previous chapter?

I don't believe so, since in Japanese the "next:" bit at the bottom is always just the name of the next chapter, and there's no chapter called "Kaio-ken x2". But I don't have the volume with me to check (I just got the opening narration from my word files on Viz changes, which I had typed it up for earlier).

[Bussani]

Simple question; does the Japanese version still say something like, "Next: Kaioken x2!" at the bottom of the end of the previous chapter?

I don't believe so, since in Japanese the "next:" bit at the bottom is always just the name of the next chapter, and there's no chapter called "Kaio-ken x2". But I don't have the volume with me to check (I just got the opening narration from my word files on Viz changes, which I had typed it up for earlier).

I see. Thanks for the reply.

I've always found it strange that the Viz 'next' part never matches the actual title of the next chapter. It seems like a weird thing to do.

[Herms]

I've always found it strange that the Viz 'next' part never matches the actual title of the next chapter. It seems like a weird thing to do.

Part of that is that sometimes the "next" part in Viz will be a direct translation of the Japanese title, but they then go and use a different title for the actual chapter.

[mister yummy]

That's fair enough. Like I said, I can't think of a technical reason that it doesn't work this way, I just don't think that it does, personally. But I am interested to hear what your take on this is;

If SSJ simply adds a particular amount, then what do the other transformations do? Would they just add another amount on top? So your strength as an SSJ2 would be base + SSJ boost + SSJ2 boost, with SSJ and SSJ2 boosts remaining constant but base changing?

That's not quite how I see it, but very similiar. The amount of power the transformation gives you could be increased by training with and mastering the form. That way, both training in 'base' form and training in a transformed state would have their usefulness. One improves 'base' power, and the other improves control of, and therefore power from, the transformation.

Also, the boost from SSJ2 wouldn't be piled on top of the SSJ boost, rather it would be applied seperately, but it works out effectively the same no matter how you do the math.

An example: assuming your SSJ boost is 10,000,000(total fighting power 15,000,000) when you transform into SSJ2, your SSJ2 boost would initially be 20,000,000, for a total power of 25,000,000.

The SSJ2 boost is determined by the SSJ boost doubled, plus whatever you've gained from training with the form.

If you train in base, you base power increase. This increse raises the power in SSJ as well, because that's added on top of it.

If you train as a SSJ, you'll get stronger with that form, and the boost increases. This makes you stronger as a SSJ and as a SSJ2, because that boost is determined by the SSJ boost.

If you train as a SSJ2, you get stronger with the form, and the boost increases, independant of the SSJ boost.

The problem, however, is that I don't know how to follow with SSJ3... Oh well.

[Dayspring]

It seems regular Kaio-ken=Kaio-ken x2, despite what the Vegeta fight seems to show. During the Vegeta fight, the narrator says that Kaio-ken (not Kaio-ken x2) doubles Goku's battle power. Then during the Freeza fight, Kaio says that Kaio-ken x10 makes Goku ten times stronger. This doesn't leave any room for a difference between Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2, even though Goku seems to regard them as different things during the Vegeta fight. It's quite possible that it's another one of Toriyama's inconsistencies.

I think Kaioken starting at Kaioken x2 makes sense. If it's a multiplyer, Kaioken x1 wouldn't work. So things like "Kaioken x3" would merely be a simpler way of saying "The level of Kaioken = base x3".

Can o'worms: If the narrator states that Kaioken doubles his strength, wouldn't Kaioken x4 octuple it? In other words, Kaioken x4 = (Base x2) x4.

[Saiyan-Professor]

It seems regular Kaio-ken=Kaio-ken x2, despite what the Vegeta fight seems to show. During the Vegeta fight, the narrator says that Kaio-ken (not Kaio-ken x2) doubles Goku's battle power. Then during the Freeza fight, Kaio says that Kaio-ken x10 makes Goku ten times stronger. This doesn't leave any room for a difference between Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2, even though Goku seems to regard them as different things during the Vegeta fight. It's quite possible that it's another one of Toriyama's inconsistencies.

I think Kaioken starting at Kaioken x2 makes sense. If it's a multiplyer, Kaioken x1 wouldn't work. So things like "Kaioken x3" would merely be a simpler way of saying "The level of Kaioken = base x3".

Can o'worms: If the narrator states that Kaioken doubles his strength, wouldn't Kaioken x4 octuple it? In other words, Kaioken x4 = (Base x2) x4.

I think all this layering stuff complicates matters. I think a straight multiplication of the base for whichever transformation or technique is better.

[Dayspring]

It seems regular Kaio-ken=Kaio-ken x2, despite what the Vegeta fight seems to show. During the Vegeta fight, the narrator says that Kaio-ken (not Kaio-ken x2) doubles Goku's battle power. Then during the Freeza fight, Kaio says that Kaio-ken x10 makes Goku ten times stronger. This doesn't leave any room for a difference between Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2, even though Goku seems to regard them as different things during the Vegeta fight. It's quite possible that it's another one of Toriyama's inconsistencies.

I think Kaioken starting at Kaioken x2 makes sense. If it's a multiplyer, Kaioken x1 wouldn't work. So things like "Kaioken x3" would merely be a simpler way of saying "The level of Kaioken = base x3".

Can o'worms: If the narrator states that Kaioken doubles his strength, wouldn't Kaioken x4 octuple it? In other words, Kaioken x4 = (Base x2) x4.

I think all this layering stuff complicates matters. I think a straight multiplication of the base for whichever transformation or technique is better.

I completely agree; I was just pointing out an amusing observation. Basically, I think there is no such thing as Kaioken x1, so whenever someone says just Kaioken, they're implying Kaioken x2. When they say x2, they're just being specific.

[JulieYBM]

Because as we'll all remember, when Son was using Three-Times he was on his way to 24,000 (8,000 * 3 = 24,000)!

[Wojak]

About the thing with ridiculously high numbers and C19 being put too close to Freeza: Goku was a mere 30.000.000 above Freeza's powerlevel as a Super Saiya-jin and he still had a great upper edge in the fight.

[Herms]

Can o'worms: If the narrator states that Kaioken doubles his strength, wouldn't Kaioken x4 octuple it? In other words, Kaioken x4 = (Base x2) x4. :P

No, becasue Kaio (or Tenshinhan?) says during the Freeza fight that Kaio-ken x10 makes Goku ten times stronger.