Could Dabura really be as strong as Cell?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:53 pm

Some people say Dabura wasn't as strong as Cell because Gohan was only regular SSJ when they fought at even strengths. Does this inherently mean Dabura is weaker than Cell, though? My answer to this would be that SSJ Gohan at this point would be as strong as SSJ Goku when he fought Cell. This should explain the SSJ/Dabura strength inconsistency, no?

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:28 pm

Pretty much, yes. Though I consider Dabura as strong or stronger than Kanzentai Cell rather than itself upon Zenkai. Plus Dabura states Gohan is trash for him later when they meet again.

SweetCosmicPope · Post by **SweetCosmicPope** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:32 pm

I always struggle with the logic that each Super Saiyan level has a cap on it's maximum power, honestly.

I mean, once Super Saiyan is introduced, it pretty much becomes the standard fighting form, with great results. They may not win the fight, but if they can hold their own against someone who is much more powerful than previous villains, then it leads me to believe that the maximum power of that transformation can rise.

I tend to think that Dabura is at least as powerful as Cell.

Yamcha_krillin · Post by **Yamcha_krillin** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:38 pm

Well it looks like my last post was deleted so i will repeat myself.

I belive that Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabura making Dabura as strong as a SSJ2.The Daizenshu confirms this too.But i also belive that SPC was stronger then Dabura since Dabura fought equally with Gohan who didn't train for 7 years.This Gohan was weaker then SPC

One thing i would know where was it stated that Dabura was holding back on Gohan?

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:02 pm

Yamcha_krillin wrote:Well it looks like my last post was deleted so i will repeat myself.

I belive that Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabura making Dabura as strong as a SSJ2.The Daizenshu confirms this too.But i also belive that SPC was stronger then Dabura since Dabura fought equally with Gohan who didn't train for 7 years.This Gohan was weaker then SPC

One thing i would know where was it stated that Dabura was holding back on Gohan?

That doesn't usually happen around here.

I found your post:

Yamcha_krillin wrote:I always believed that Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabura and that Dabura was as strong as a SSJ2.The Daizenshu confirms this too.But Dabura can't be stronger then SPC because Dabura was fighting equally with Gohan who didn't train for 7 years and who was weaker then SPC and even if Daburta was holding back he wasn't holding back much.

In this thread: http://db.schuby.org/daizex/viewtopic.php?t=10366

OT: Personally, I think that the evidence points to the following:

1. Gohan was a Super Saiya-jin. Not a single spark, yadda yadda yadda.
No matter what the Daizenshuu says. Contradictions do not matter for me.

2. Thus, Dabra was not at a Super Saiya-jin 2's battle power.

3. Gohan was weaker than previously in the Cell Games. As someone mentioned, he should probably be at Cell saga FPSSJ Goku's level.

4. If Dabra took the fight more seriously, I doubt that his battle power would go up as much as Cell's could. I don't even think that FPSSJ Cell Games Gohan could defeat Cell, as Cell could power up a lot more, and he was already giving Gohan a lot of spanking.

5. Dabra was at most equal to Gohan in battle power in their fight.
The difference was that Dabra had his spit and pulled a sword out of nowhere.

Conclusion: Cell is stronger than Dabra even before his zenkai.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:12 pm

Yamcha_krillin wrote:One thing i would know where was it stated that Dabura was holding back on Gohan?

After Gohan and East Kaioshin go both stop Babidi from resurrect Majin Buu while Vegeta and Goku are going to fight Babidi asks if Dabura can handle Gohan which Dabura answers back Gohan is nothing more than trash for him. And Gohan does not disagree with him either.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:36 pm

Son Gokû said Dabra was up there with Cell. According to the Daizenshû--as I understand it--Gohan was a SSj2 when he fought Dabra.

I think that while Gohan might have been a little weaker than he was against Cell, he was still a SSj2 as the Daizenshû says, but Dabra just wasn't going all out.

In retrospect, before Gohan fires off his blasts against Boo, he does a pretty narly power up. Could it be likely he hit those high notes he did against Cell, or Toriyama meant such, so as to show just how more powerful than even Gohan in his Cell Game self Boo was? I think it's likely, but Toriyama just didn't pull it off as he could have.

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:19 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
In retrospect, before Gohan fires off his blasts against Boo, he does a pretty narly power up. Could it be likely he hit those high notes he did against Cell, or Toriyama meant such, so as to show just how more powerful than even Gohan in his Cell Game self Boo was? I think it's likely, but Toriyama just didn't pull it off as he could have.

Well, a hypothesis can be that Gohan's power didn't really decrease, but that he hadn't gone full power in a long while and was unused to fighting and his ki usage overall.
I mean, when Gohan powered up and blasted Buu's egg, even Dabra seemed a little bit shocked.
You can compare it to when Gohan trained with Goten. He had a hard time in the beginning but got used to fighting him pretty fast. But maybe a stronger opponent would have pushed him to get accustomed to his max power.

In the fight with Dabra, as I have said before, most of Gohan's trouble was because of that Dabra was a new kind of enemy, who used a sword and his spit out of the blue.
And I guess that Gohan didn't want to kill him either and thus didn't go all out.

Also, Babii told Dabra to stop taking so much damage, indicating that Dabra may have been overconfident, as Gohan actually damaged him enough. If I remember right.

Myself, I think he regained his power there, just to go over Goku and Vegeta's limits when training with the Z-sword.
But that's another story.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:31 pm

Gohan's hidden potential never really disappeared. It couldn't have, or Rou Dai Kaioshin would have nothing to bring out. It was his ability to call it out at will that might have suffered over the years of not using it, like Wojak said. This makes sense really, since that's mostly what training is about; bringing out your hidden power.

And like it often came out in bursts of rage throughout Gohan's life, it wouldn't be surprising if, through a moment of anger or clarity, Gohan was suddenly able to call that power out again.

To be honest, I never thought Gohan was fighting to his fullest potential against Dabura. Vegeta was just getting impatient. Have you ever played a video game after not playing it for months or years? The ability to do everything is still there, it's just your skills that are rusty. And when pushed, sometimes they come back quicker (I get this with Super Smash Bros!).

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:34 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Son Gokû said Dabra was up there with Cell.

That he did, but at that time, Dabra wasn't at anywhere near his full power, something Goku was most certainly aware of, so that would've just be an educated guess at how strong this new villain was. His main point there was that Dabra was nowhere near the ridiculously overpowered and unstoppable monster Kaioushin was implying he was.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:41 pm

I forget: do we see the beginning of Gohan's fight with Dabura, or did it cut back to Goten or the Budokai and return in media res? If we don't see the beginning, it's possible Gohan was SSJ2 at first, and then dropped out of it because he couldn't stay angry enough as he used up his power.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:24 pm

Dayspring wrote:I forget: do we see the beginning of Gohan's fight with Dabura, or did it cut back to Goten or the Budokai and return in media res? If we don't see the beginning, it's possible Gohan was SSJ2 at first, and then dropped out of it because he couldn't stay angry enough as he used up his power.

In the manga I don't believe we see the beginning of it. Like you said, there is some tournament stuff, then when it goes back to Gohan and Dabura the fight is already in full swing.

Narrator Box: "Even as Hercule celebrates his victory, Gohan and Dabra are locked in combat."

Or something like that.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:26 pm

The beginning definitely wasn't shown. It cuts right to the tourney after it shows Gohan challenging Dabra on his own.

Uh, Bussani's quickness got it.

Dabra definitely was not holding back. What he said to Gohan can be chalked up to a villain being a villain. He's not going to exactly refer to him as an incredible fighter while Bobbodi is standing there. And Dabra was huffing like a dog at the end of the battle. He was a bit stronger then Super Saiyan Gohan, but that's it.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:53 pm

Oh, I wouldn't doubt it if Dabra was above Super Perfect Cell's level, I just wanted to make sure nobody took him for being weaker than Cell's Perfect/SP levels, because I really don't think he is.

I agree on the video game analogy. For example, I was just recently getting back into playing Sparking METEOR after a month or two break for Pokémon Fire Red and Platinum, and Gundam v. Zeta Gundam after a several month break. It takes a few minutes and rounds to get that killer instinct back. Remember Rocky III, where Rocky had faced so many milksops, just going through the motions, that eventually when he had to fight a nasty somgun (Clubber Lang, Mr. T) he couldn't hit those high notes he was when he fought Apollo (also factor in how he was distracted by Mic's injuries).

When he finally had to fight Boo, his senses were probably blaring out loud, screaming as they awoke again, so I think it's totally likely Toriyama might have meant for Gohan to have hit that Cell Game level again...it simply wasn't directed as well (I'd personally have thought about using a SSj2 Kid Gohan image behind Gohan as he fought to show he was hitting that same note, if he was suppose to be that is).

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:45 am

Well, after all this talk from Goku to Gohan, telling him to release his full power, and suddenly, Gohan bursts with a Full Power kamehameha, probably with his SSJ2 power.
We don't know, so I guess it's up for your personal interpretation.
I would like to think he did reach his former strength.
I mean, Kame Sennin didn't lose any power, even though he didn't train for 7 (?) years between the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and Radditz's appearance.

If we go by the muscle tone and then adding ki theory, if you keep your muscle tone, and your ki reserves get higher, it's odd if they dissapear.
And Gohan was still growing, giving him more muscle tone (puberty gives you that).

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:51 am

In my own opinion Gohan only became as strong as his self at Cell Games after his training with the Zette sword. Before, against Dabura & Majin Buu, he was nothing more than a weakened SSJ. The lack of SSJ2 characteristics in Gohan would make Dabura around Kanzentai Cell full power.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:39 am

Dabra is not as strong as Cell's max. If he was that strong, no weakened Super Saiyan Gohan would do anything in the battle.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:33 am

But the Daizenshû says Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2...

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:43 am

JulieYBM wrote:But the Daizenshû says Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2...

But in the manga he visibly wasn't. I know Toriyama is forgetful, but he didn't look SSJ2 in any part of that fight.

Was he SSJ2 in the anime? I forget. If so, the Daizenshuu could have been going off of that, since it does try to incorporate anime information too, doesn't it?

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:58 am

He might not have looked it, but if what the only actual source

Code: Select all

[i]says[/i] he's a SSj2, we might as well go off it.