Goku + Gohan = ?

[Senzu_Bean]

Bah, I don't know. It's too confusing.

Guess that is why Toriyama chose to fuse Goku and Vegeta rather Goku and his son.

[Rory]

The difference between Base Goku and Mystic Gohan is freaking enormous, far larger than the difference between Goku and Mr. Satan, which Goku was worried about "increasing my power from 1000 to 1001...or it might even go down...".

I don't buy that for a second. After EVERYTHING Goku's been through, from the fight with Freeza, to training in the afterlife, I really don't believe the gap between their power has changed to the point where that gap is LARGER than Goku's and mr.Satan's.

[Rocketman]

I don't buy that for a second. After EVERYTHING Goku's been through, from the fight with Freeza, to training in the afterlife, I really don't believe the gap between their power has changed to the point where that gap is LARGER than Goku's and mr.Satan's.

Let's pull a number out of the air and say that Base Goku is at 250,000,000.

Goku - 250,000,000
SSJ1 - 12,500,000,000
SSJ2 - 25,000,000,000
SSJ3 - 100,000,000,000 (one hundred billion)

The difference between SSJ3 Goku and Base Goku is 99,750,000,000 (ninety-nine billion, seven hundred fifty million).

The difference between Base Goku and an average human is 249,999,995 (two hundred forty-nine million, nine hundred ninety-nine thousand, nine hundred ninety-five).

So, the difference between SSJ3 Goku and Base Goku is far, far greater than the difference between Base Goku and the average human. Mystic Gohan is even further beyond SSJ3 Goku. It's simple math.

If Vegetto has the ability to reach the SSJ3 form, why wouldn't Gokhan gain Gohan's "mystic" thang? To be able to release his power without using the SSJ transformations? If the lock that kept Gohan's latent power was opened, it may have done that on Gokhan too.

Not everything is kept in the fusion. Vegeta was dead, but Vegetto certainly wasn't.

Also, if only Goku is able to transform into a SSJ3, and Vegetto can do it, wouldn't Gokhan be able to reach SSJ3?

Because Gohan can't go Super Saiyan, and Goku can't go Mystic.

Vegeta and Goku have the same abilities. Goten and Trunks had the same abilities. Goku and Gohan don't.

[Innagadadavida]

What would happen if Goku were to go SSJ3 before/while fusing with Gohan?

[Rocketman]

What would happen if Goku were to go SSJ3 before/while fusing with Gohan?

The fusion would die pretty quick. Elder Kai warned against even going SSJ1 before fusion.

[Bussani]

Well, if you look at it another way, if Gokhan did keep the Mystic upgrade then he might have all of the full potential of Goku and Gohan. That would be like adding Mystic Gohan on top of perfected SSJ3 Goku (maybe more) and then multiplying it. That really could result in something awesome. Beyond what we see Vegetto actually use, that much is for sure.

Let's do some BS maths.

Let's say Goku, Gohan and Vegeta are roughly the same in their base forms, and have a BPL (Bussani/Bullshit Power Level) of 1,000,000 each. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that whoever Goku fuses with would result in a x10 multiplication, even though I think the one from Goku and Gohan fusing might actually be less than the Goku/Vegeta one.

Edit 2: Also, it's probably more than x10, or base Vegetto wouldn't even be as strong as SSJ Goku. That can't be right...

Goku: 1,000,000
Gohan: 1,000,000
Vegeta: 1,000,000

Vegetto (20,000,000) = Goku (1,000,000) + Vegeta (1,000,000) * 10
SSJ Vegetto: 1,000,000,000
Theoretical SSJ2 Vegetto: 2,000,000,000
Theoretical SSJ3 Vegetto: 8,000,000,000

Obviously Gohan without Mystic would result in roughly the same, unless we take into account Gohan being slightly weaker and the boost being different. So let's look at Mystic Gohan. Let's say that, being stronger than SSJ3, he is roughly x450 his base form?

Mystic Gohan: 450,000,000

So we're also assuming that the Mystic upgrade will affect Goku, so let's assume his power would be his SSJ3 power, even though it would probably be more than that.

Goku: 400,000,000

Gokhan (8,500,000,000) = Goku (400,000,000) + Gohan (450,000,000) * 10

That's what I come up with, anyway. It's not perfect since we don't know how the multplications of Potara work. Anyone want to disagree with any of it for other reasons? I might have missed something.

Edit:

What would happen if Goku were to go SSJ3 before/while fusing with Gohan?

The fusion would die pretty quick. Elder Kai warned against even going SSJ1 before fusion.

Oh, and Rocketman is right. Rou Dai Kaioshin warned them that if they were SSJ when they fused, the fusion would always be SSJ, and the strain would shorten their lifespans.

Come to think of it, Goku asks, "should we be Super Saiyajin before fusing?" But Gohan can't use SSJ as he was. Interesting.

He also says that they'll still be able to become Super Saiyajin after the fusion, but he doesn't think they'll need to.

[Piccolo Daimao]

What would happen if Goku were to go SSJ3 before/while fusing with Gohan?

The fusion would die pretty quick. Elder Kai warned against even going SSJ1 before fusion.

Oh, and Rocketman is right. Rou Dai Kaioshin warned them that if they were SSJ when they fused, the fusion would always be SSJ, and the strain would shorten their lifespans.

Come to think of it, Goku asks, "should we be Super Saiyajin before fusing?" But Gohan can't use SSJ as he was. Interesting.

He also says that they'll still be able to become Super Saiyajin after the fusion, but he doesn't think they'll need to.

Rou Dai Kaioshin didn't know about Goku being able to master his Super Saiyan form, did he? Just throwing that out there.

[Dayspring]

Not sure where you guys are getting all your weird rules about Potara fusion. None of these applied to Rou Kaioshin and the witch, or to Kibito and Kaioshin. "Kibitoshin" has access to Kibito's powers, while "Witch Kaioshin" has access to Rou Kaioshin's powers. I think it makes sense that "Gokan" would be a fusion of (Mystic) Gohan and base Goku, who in turn would still be able to go SSJ3. Even Vegetto should be capable of SSJ3 if he needed it.

As for Potara fusion strength, the SEG confirmed that it's a straight multiplyer of the two being fused.

[Rocketman]

Not sure where you guys are getting all your weird rules about Potara fusion.

Mostly from Vegetto not being dead. And from Mystic and Super Saiyan being incompatible.

[Dayspring]

Not sure where you guys are getting all your weird rules about Potara fusion.

Mostly from Vegetto not being dead. And from Mystic and Super Saiyan being incompatible.

Why must Vegetto be dead? Meanwhile, Mystic was already activated, so "Gokan" would be able to use them. Even if he couldn't and it was either/or, "Gokan" would be stronger than Vegetto, since Z-Sword Gohan is stronger than Vegeta. Mystic or SSJ wouldn't make a difference at this point, as Mystic would obviously make him the strongest, while SSJ levels are straight multiplyers.

[Bussani]

since Z-Sword Gohan is stronger than Vegeta.

Do we know this for sure?

Anyway, a fusion character has the skills of both members, but certain things don't carry over. Vegeta was dead when they fused, but that didn't matter because apparently Vegetto counted as a new person who wasn't dead. There's no way of knowing what sort of effect there would be with Mystic thrown in. But last night I messed with my numbers a bit to come up with some possibilities.

I decided that for the purposes of demonstration, x10 from the Potara wasn't enough. That would only make base Vegetto stronger than base Goku, but weaker than SSJ Goku, which doesn't seem right (although we never do see him fight, but considering he has to be stronger than Mystic Gohan and Buu combined...). So anyway, I made it x500, just for the sake of that.

(Roughly)
Goku: 1,000,000
Vegeta: 1,000,000
Gohan: 1,000,000

Goku (1,000,000) + Vegeta (1,000,000) * 500 = Vegetto (1,000,000,000)
SSJ Vegetto: 50,000,000,000
SSJ2 Vegetto: 100,000,000,000
SSJ3 Vegetto: 400,000,000,000

Now for Gokhan. There are 3 possibilities that I see.

Gokhan 1: No Mystic

In this version, the mystic upgrade has no effect on the fusion. In other words, Gokhan comes out almost the same as Vegetto, only the boost from being rivals (if such a thing makes a major difference) may be different.

Gokhan: 1,000,000,000
SSJ Gokhan: 50,000,000,000
SSJ2 Gokhan: 100,000,000,000
SSJ3 Gokhan: 400,000,000,000

Gokhan 2: Mystic Gokhan

The mystic upgrade affects both members, so the resulting fusion is essentially what Vegetto would be if he sat around and had Rou Dai Kaioshin make him Mystic too. These numbers might be a bit off, since I'm guessing based on Mystic Gohan being more powerful than SSJ3.

Mystic Gohan (450,000,000) + Mystic Goku (400,000,000) * 500 = Mystic Gokhan (425,000,000,000)

Gokhan 3: Base Goku + Mystic Gohan

This is the one Dayspring suggested, I think. We take Mystic Gohan as Gohan's new base.

Mystic Gohan (450,000,000) + Goku (1,000,000) * 500 = Gokhan (225,500,000,000)

And then, just for fun...

SSJ Gokhan: 11,275,000,000,000
SSJ2 Gokhan: 22,550,000,000,000
SSJ3 Gokhan: 90,200,000,000,000

Frightening. Buuuuut...if we assume that since Gohan's full power was already out, that only Goku's remaining power would be released by transforming, then it might be something more like this.

SSJ Gokhan: 250,500,000,000
SSJ2 Gokhan: 275,500,000,000
SSJ3 Gokhan: 425,500,000,000

That takes into account the boost from the Potara as well, of course. And since it ends up with SSJ3 being about the same as Mystic Gokhan, it's probably the more probable scenario. Then again, where did that extra 5 come from? Maybe my math went wrong somewhere.

[Dayspring]

since Z-Sword Gohan is stronger than Vegeta.

Do we know this for sure?

It's implied that he's strong enough to defeat Boo (only Fat, I think). SSJ2 Vegeta clearly wasn't, so I say yes, Z-Sword Gohan is stronger.

As for you fusion estimates, it's confirmed that Potara would multiply Goku's PL by Gohan's. EX:

Goku = 1,000
Gohan = 1,000
Gokan = 1,000 x 1,000 = 1,000,000.

So I think it would be one of the following if they fused:

A) Mystic = Base
Mystic is only triggered once. Therefore Mytic Gohan is base Gohan when he fuses with Goku. Gokan would then be impossibly powerful, but still able to go SSJ levels because of Goku's influence.

B) Mystic = Power Up/Transformation
Z-Sword Gohan and Goku result in a base Gokan fusion that is slightly stronger than Vegetto. Because Mystic replaced SSJ, Gokan will have either SSJ or Mystic at his disposable.

[Rocketman]

It's implied that he's strong enough to defeat Boo (only Fat, I think). SSJ2 Vegeta clearly wasn't, so I say yes, Z-Sword Gohan is stronger.

By who, Supreme Kai?

[Dayspring]

It's implied that he's strong enough to defeat Boo (only Fat, I think). SSJ2 Vegeta clearly wasn't, so I say yes, Z-Sword Gohan is stronger.

By who, Supreme Kai?

It seemed to be the general concensus of Gohan, Goku, and Kaioshin when they broke the Z-Sword. Gohan thinks he's strong enough to take on Boo, and they agree with him when he says the sword was probably just to train with.

[Bussani]

As for you fusion estimates, it's confirmed that Potara would multiply Goku's PL by Gohan's.

Where is that confirmed? I thought that all the guide said was that Potara was some sort of multiplier. Besides, what battle power scale would the Potaras be using for said multiplication? Because that could make a big difference.

Edit:

For the potara, it says that the power-up from merging isn’t a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication.

That leaves a lot of room for interpretation. My method may not be how it works, but it also doesn't contradict how Herms wrote that.

Edit 2: If Gokhan had Mystic Gohan as the base and SSJ, though, would SSJ still be x50, or would it only bring out Goku's SSJ potential? That's what I was left wondering.

[Dayspring]

As for you fusion estimates, it's confirmed that Potara would multiply Goku's PL by Gohan's.

Where is that confirmed? I thought that all the guide said was that Potara was some sort of multiplier. Besides, what battle power scale would the Potaras be using for said multiplication? Because that could make a big difference.

Edit:

For the potara, it says that the power-up from merging isn’t a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication.

That leaves a lot of room for interpretation. My method may not be how it works, but it also doesn't contradict how Herms wrote that.

Ehh... if you feel that's up for interpretation, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see how that implies anything other than multiplication.

[Bussani]

For the potara, it says that the power-up from merging isn’t a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication.

That leaves a lot of room for interpretation. My method may not be how it works, but it also doesn't contradict how Herms wrote that.

Ehh... if you feel that's up for interpretation, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see how that implies anything other than multiplication.

Because my result wasn't a sum of their powers, and it did use a multiplication? Herms' translation doesn't directly say it's one person's power multiplied by another. It could be, it's an interesting theory, but it's not the only one that fits that description I think.

Edit: The way it's worded, your way could very well be right. Maybe Herms could tell us what he thinks the meaning behind the sentence was, going from the original Japanese.

[Onikage725]

I'm way too lazy to read everyone's fake math, but I think Rocketman has a point. Keeping in mind that (arguably) being weaker than Vegetto doesn't mean weak in and of itself. With Vegetto, there was a certain measure of synchronicity. The same could be said of Gotenks. The fusion partners' powers worked the same way. Both Goku and Vegeta started out in fairly strong bases, and then amplified their power manifold through Super Saiyan levels. Gohan's Mystic power made Super Saiyan irrelevant for him, while at the same time eliminating his need to transform. So, a similar Mystic override on Gohanku (or whatever) would negate much of Goku's power.

Unless of course it just amplified Goku's power in the same way, so you add the bases and then apply Mystic as a full potential modifier...

I dunno, a case exists either way really.

[Bussani]

I'm way too lazy to read everyone's fake math

Heeey, I put a lot of thought into that fake math! You go read it, right now!

Edit: In fact, have some more! This is using Dayspring's theory, because I do like it.

Goku: 1,000,000
Gohan: 1,000,000
Vegeta: 1,000,000
Mystic Gohan: 450,000,000

Goku * Vegeta = Vegetto
Vegetto: 1,000,000,000,000
SSJ Vegetto: 50,000,000,000,000
SSJ2 Vegetto: 100,000,000,000,000
SSJ3 Vegetto: 400,000,000,000,000

Goku * Gohan = Gokhan
Gokhan: 1,000,000,000,000
SSJ Gokhan: 50,000,000,000,000
SSJ2 Gokhan: 100,000,000,000,000
SSJ3 Gokhan: 400,000,000,000,000

Goku * Mystic Gohan = Half Mystic Gokhan
Half Mystic Gokhan: 450,000,000,000,000
SSJ HM Gokhan: 22,500,000,000,000,000
SSJ2 HM Gokhan: 45,000,000,000,000,000
SSJ3 HM Gokhan: 180,000,000,000,000,000

Mystic Goku * Mystic Gohan = Mystic Gokhan
Mystic Gokhan: 180,000,000,000,000,000

[Onikage725]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH *head explodes*

:p sry, I'm just too tired to make sense of it mathematically. And they do say back in the Cell Saga that you can't measure Saiyan powers that way. I can only imagine that magical fusions with vague power modifiers would be worse.