Goku + Gohan = ?

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:30 pm

Onikage725 wrote:AHHHHHHHHHHHHH *head explodes*

:p sry, I'm just too tired to make sense of it mathematically. And they do say back in the Cell Saga that you can't measure Saiyan powers that way. I can only imagine that magical fusions with vague power modifiers would be worse.

Yeah, that's true. The math is complete nonsense, really. It's just a rough, "this character may have been twice as strong as this character," kind of thing. As I said, even if Potara multiplied one character's 'power' by the other character's 'power', what exactly is it measuring these powers in? There's no way of knowing.

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:43 pm

Dayspring wrote:Fusion adds one syllable of the first name to two syllables of the other name. So with Goku and Gohan we'd get one of the following:

-Gokuhan
-Gohanku
-Gogoku
-Gogohan

...and with Kakarotto and Gohan we'd get:

-Kakahan
-Kagohan
-Gohanto
-Gorotto

The name would most likely follow the pattern it did in the series. In the series, both Gotenks and Vegitto had an equal amount of katakana from the names of their fusees. If our Goku/Gahan fusion also did, the possibilities include:
Gon
Gokuhan
Gohakuu
Kakahan
Gohatto

I actually thought of the name Gohatto a long time ago, and made this pic of what I thought it may look like. I think it's rather accurate, after all, there's barely any difference between Goku's and Gohan's appearance.

Gokhan would be stuck in base form because Gohan no longer has the Super Saiyan transformations.

It was stated that Goku and Gohan would be capable of going ssj after they fused.

Since Gohan already was at full power in base form, and Goku still accessed his through ssj, the fusion would have a really strong base form with some power to still gain through ssj. I don't think he'd be able to go past ssj1, though. With a base form that freaking powerful, it'd seem pretty crazy for him to have that much potential power.

As for how he'd compare to Vegitto, it all depends on what the writer chooses. It was mentioned that being rivals had part in Goku and Vegeta's fusion. Is it big enough to keep him ahead of even "Gohatto's" strength? It all depends on how strong the writer chooses to make him. I guess I'd personaly make it about even, just so Vegeta's worth ain't lost due to power gaps.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:20 pm

Metrite wrote:
Gokhan would be stuck in base form because Gohan no longer has the Super Saiyan transformations.
It was stated that Goku and Gohan would be capable of going ssj after they fused.

Hey, that's true! Elder Kaioshin was refering to Goku and Gohan fusing, not Goku and Vegeta. This statement should confirm that Mystic Gohan is Gohan's new base, and that "Gokan" should be able to access SSJ levels. In other words:

Base Gokan = Base Goku x Mystic Gohan
SSJ Gokan = 50 x Base Gokan
SSJ2 Gokan = 2 x SSJ Gokan
SSJ3 Gokan = 4 x SSJ2 Gokan

Metrite · Post by **Metrite** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:59 pm

Out of the five name possibilities, it seems "Gokuhan" is the one most lean towards(Japanese wise, "Gok(h)an" isn't possible). I still think Gohatto sounds the fanciest.

Base Gokan = Base Goku x Mystic Gohan

lol I think trying to use math when it comes to how strong characters are just doesn't work, especially multiplication. What if the type of chart used to measure power counted Vegetto's strength as 1? Well then, multiplying Goku and Vegeta would be like 0.1 times 0.1 which makes 0.01. They became weaker!

And since ssj relates to the amount of ki the they can access, I'd expect ssj1 to be the furthest this fusion would need to go to reach his max power since he'd already have so much in base.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:26 pm

Metrite wrote:Out of the five name possibilities, it seems "Gokuhan" is the one most lean towards(Japanese wise, "Gok(h)an" isn't possible). I still think Gohatto sounds the fanciest.
Base Gokan = Base Goku x Mystic Gohan
lol I think trying to use math when it comes to how strong characters are just doesn't work, especially multiplication. What if the type of chart used to measure power counted Vegetto's strength as 1? Well then, multiplying Goku and Vegeta would be like 0.1 times 0.1 which makes 0.01. They became weaker! And since ssj relates to the amount of ki the they can access, I'd expect ssj1 to be the furthest this fusion would need to go to reach his max power since he'd already have so much in base.

I must say I really don't appreciate your tone. I never used crazy numbers in that example, like you're strongly implying. I'm just quoting the SEG's comment about potara multiplying that it multiplies one by the other.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:37 pm

*applauds Metrite*
Duh, I completely overlooked that- we all use what Rou Kaioshin said about fusion and apply it to what we know about Vegetto, but he was specifically referring to Goku and Gohan. That about cinches it, then. No matter how you slice it, Gohan was vastly more powerful than Vegeta at that point. And unlike the fusion dance, the earrings don't require similar levels of power from it's two wearers.

Actually, doesn't SSJ3 supposedly unleash a Saiyan's full potential? If that's the case, then one could say that Goku, while fused with Mystic Gohan, would be able to bring out his own latent power without needing to transform as well. Physically transforming for that character would be for show at best.

Honestly, Vegetto's performance in the anime is about what I would expect from a manga "Gokuhan" had he ever existed.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:49 pm

What am I, chopped liver? I pointed out about Rou Dai Kaioshin saying they could go Super Saiyajin after fusing a whole page back. >_>

Granted, it probably got lost in the fake math...

I like Gokuhan. Sounds like Tenshinhan sorta.

As for only SSJ1 being needed...I can see that working, if it brought out the normal x50 and was only accessing Goku's SSJ power (all the way up to SSJ3 I mean). In fact, it would probably only double Gokuhan's power, tops, since Gohan is already essentially SSJ3 (or beyond) in base, so all there is to add is Goku at SSJ3.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:10 pm

Onikage725 wrote:Honestly, Vegetto's performance in the anime is about what I would expect from a manga "Gokuhan" had he ever existed.

How do you figure? I saw Vegetto as being predominantly Vegeta's personality. The only reason he didn't flat out kill Boo was because of the Goku aspect (I always figured).

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:29 pm

I always wondered about this, fans always assume that Vegetto could access other Super Saiyan levels but what if he could only access Super Saiyan 1, since he was ridiculously strong in base to begin with if we count the anime.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:35 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:I always wondered about this, fans always assume that Vegetto could access other Super Saiyan levels but what if he could only access Super Saiyan 1, since he was ridiculously strong in base to begin with if we count the anime.

Why would he only have SSJ1 when both Goku and Vegeta have SSJ2?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:47 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:I always wondered about this, fans always assume that Vegetto could access other Super Saiyan levels but what if he could only access Super Saiyan 1, since he was ridiculously strong in base to begin with if we count the anime.

I doubt it. SSJ levels just make you stronger. SSJ2 and SSJ3 would just be overkill, as Rou Kaioshin thought "Gokuhan" going regular SSJ would be, but not impossible.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:14 pm

Dayspring wrote:
Onikage725 wrote:Honestly, Vegetto's performance in the anime is about what I would expect from a manga "Gokuhan" had he ever existed.
How do you figure? I saw Vegetto as being predominantly Vegeta's personality. The only reason he didn't flat out kill Boo was because of the Goku aspect (I always figured).

I think he means that in the anime, Vegetto seems even more God-like than in the manga.

Saiyan-Professor wrote:I always wondered about this, fans always assume that Vegetto could access other Super Saiyan levels but what if he could only access Super Saiyan 1, since he was ridiculously strong in base to begin with if we count the anime.

But why would that be? They're super powerful in their base forms because of the fusion. Shouldn't the boosts transformations give be equally powered up, rather than becoming less just because their base forms are strong?

Even if Vegetto couldn't go SSJ3 right away, I don't see why he couldn't eventually. Goku could do it, and Gotenks figured it out.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:15 pm

Bussani wrote:What am I, chopped liver? I pointed out about Rou Dai Kaioshin saying they could go Super Saiyajin after fusing a whole page back. >_>

Sorry, sorry. Yeah, I totally missed it.

Dayspring wrote:How do you figure? I saw Vegetto as being predominantly Vegeta's personality. The only reason he didn't flat out kill Boo was because of the Goku aspect (I always figured).

I wasn't referring to personality. There was that whole filler bit where normal Vegetto shows himself to be stronger than Buu. Even going by fake math that's hard to figure. If Buu could, at that point, exceed Mystic Gohan (obviously), who in turn exceeded SSJ3, then there is no real reason why their base power (even doubled or squared) should have been a match. In the manga, I just assume it wasn't- hence the immediate transformation. In the anime, I just generally assume the fusion to work something kind of like the Mystic powerup, and that they could access latent power without needing to change their bodies to do so.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:23 pm

Onikage725 wrote:I wasn't referring to personality. There was that whole filler bit where normal Vegetto shows himself to be stronger than Buu. Even going by fake math that's hard to figure. If Buu could, at that point, exceed Mystic Gohan (obviously), who in turn exceeded SSJ3, then there is no real reason why their base power (even doubled or squared) should have been a match. In the manga, I just assume it wasn't- hence the immediate transformation. In the anime, I just generally assume the fusion to work something kind of like the Mystic powerup, and that they could access latent power without needing to change their bodies to do so.

I suppose those are good ways of looking at it. Like Dayspring has been pointing out though, the SEG says that Potara fusions "are not the sum of the two people's powers, but rather a multiplication," at least that's how he interprets it. I have no idea exactly how this would work, but if a multiplication is involved in any way it could make Vegetto's base form huge.

That said, when Rou Dai Kaioshin told them that they probably wouldn't need Super Saiyajin, he was again talking about Gokuhan. Once Buu absorbed Gohan he must have become a lot stronger. Stronger than the Buu that was beating up Mystic Gohan, probably. So it could be that SSJ...well, it was probably still overkill in Vegetto's case, but slightly more necessary than it would have been had Buu not absorbed Gohan. Maybe.

It depends how much stronger Mystic Gohan Buu is to Gotenks Buu.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Fri May 01, 2009 7:55 am

Everything after Super Saiyan was introduced is overkill and that did not unable Super Saiyan 2 and 3 to show up. Of course Vegetto could go SSJ2 and SSJ3 even if that is overkill.

Deep Thought · Post by **Deep Thought** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:09 am

If Vegeto can access Super Sayajin 3, then Gokan would automatically have the mystic power-up applied to both Goku and Gohan. Simple as that.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:29 am

Deep Thought wrote:If Vegeto can access Super Sayajin 3, then Gokan would automatically have the mystic power-up applied to both Goku and Gohan. Simple as that.

I dunno. The reason I think Vegetto might be able to go SSJ3 is not because Goku can, but because he's a skilled, full blooded Saiyajin with a high battle power. If Gotenks could do it, why couldn't he? In other words, even treating Vegetto as a separate character, there doesn't seem to be anything stopping him from reaching SSJ3, either right away or with enough practice.

Mystic is completely different. It's not just something you can know or learn, and therefore do, like a technique. If only one of the fusion members was Mystic, wouldn't the character be the same as if only half of the ritual was performed by Rou Dai Kaioshin (like when Gohan got fed up with waiting and a lot of power came out before he was done)? There's no way of knowing I guess.

Senzu_Bean · Post by **Senzu_Bean** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:30 am

The "mystic power-up" is not a transformation. Heck, it cannot be considered nothing because nothing occurred except for that ritual. I cannot explain with words but, for example, if Gohan has a cold when he fuses with Goku would the fusion result has also a cold too?

Innagadadavida · Post by **Innagadadavida** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:35 am

Bussani wrote:I dunno. The reason I think Vegetto might be able to go SSJ3 is not because Goku can, but because he's a skilled, full blooded Saiyajin with a high battle power. If Gotenks could do it, why couldn't he? In other words, even treating Vegetto as a separate character, there doesn't seem to be anything stopping him from reaching SSJ3, either right away or with enough practice.

How does knowledge fuse with two people? Does one only know half of what he knew before? Or is the knowledge of both fighters combined? I would say that it's the latter seeing as how Vegetto knew most of Vegeta's and Goku's attacks.

The fact that Goku knows how to access the Ssuper Saiyan 3 transformation could really help Vegetto's case.

Senzu_Bean wrote:The "mystic power-up" is not a transformation. Heck, it cannot be considered nothing because nothing occurred except for that ritual. I cannot explain with words but, for example, if Gohan has a cold when he fuses with Goku would the fusion result has also a cold too?

How about: Mystic is brought upon you, whereas Super Saiyan 3 is something you bring upon yourself.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Sat May 02, 2009 8:41 am

Innagadadavida wrote:How does knowledge fuse with two people? Does one only know half of what he knew before? Or is the knowledge of both fighters combined? I would say that it's the latter seeing as how Vegetto knew most of Vegeta's and Goku's attacks.

The fact that Goku knows how to access the Ssuper Saiyan 3 transformation could really help Vegetto's case.

Yeah. He should theoretically have both the power and the knowledge to do it. Hell, Gotenks can become SSJ3 even when neither Trunks nor Goten can. So for Vegetto you would think it would be a snap. It was just never necessary.